[JimIsland]

Originally Posted by 9mm +p+

147's are a joke, the WORST thing to ever happen to the 9mm. Don't belive me talk to some folks who have actually used them or seen them used, I have.

^^^ This.....I shot some 115 BPLE stuff the other day and it is the real deal. Shot some +P Golden Sabre along side it. Not quite as potent but still did very well.

[Kingarthurhk]

Federal White Box is not old issue.

[Merkavaboy]

Originally Posted by M 7

Untrue. The FBI test protocols use 40 rounds to test one cartridge- Eight different tests with five rounds fired per test protocol. That's hardly a "one shot" philosophy.

Blaming one single Win 9mm STHP for the deaths of two agents and wounding of 5 others is the EPITOME of the extreme OSS theory. Why do you think they created their wound ballistics protocols and held a symposium shortly after the Miami incident? Why do you think that the adopted the Win OSM Type-L 147JHP subsonic to replace the Win 115STHP they had been using?

[G21FAN]

Originally Posted by ergon

I'm a retired federal agent. If you don't like the facts ignore them. I shot 296/300 at Glynco. My last in service range score was 300/300. I was trained to fire two to the chest and one to the head. After that the SOB I shot didn't care what round he was hit with.

It's more than apparent that you didn't read what was written about 115 gr. loads even when I cut it out for you.
Believe what you want I just posted the info for the OP I didn't write it. Most cities, counties, and states buy what the bean counters can buy on the cheap NOT because they researched the subject.

Federal LE is too hung up over FBI test protocol and usually ignores real world data. Too much ego riding on their decision. You will never hear the FBI admit a wrong when they screw up.

[Merkavaboy]

Originally Posted by KenB22

Read my earlier post, Mas has said that Indianapolis police are doing just fine with their 147 gr HST's.

Exactly where did I even mention the HST? The HST is turning out to be one hell of a bullet design. I have 2 photos of 2 147HST bullets recovered from 2 DRT perps that had picture perfect expansion.

The plural of anecdote is not "data" Fact is the bullet fails the IWBA tests. You want to use a bullet that fails the IWBA tests, no skin off my neck. You seem to think you are the smartest person on the planet so go for it...use what you want. I'm just glad police don't PM you to get your recommendation about what bullet to use.

Two different calibers/bullet loads I mentioned before, the 9mm 115JHP+P+ and the .357Mag 125JHP both fail the defunct IWBA & FBI's ballistics tests, but have PROVEN THEMSELVES time and time again in the REAL WORLD!

No cop needs to PM me for my opinions on what works and what doesn't. All they have to do is contact the proper people at ISP, DeKleb Co SO or even USBP to find out how well the 9/115+P+ has worked for them under various conditions and circumstances. You can also contact Mas Ayoob personally for his input on these loads and the erratic failures of the old 9/147JHP subsonics that the FBI chose to use (and the many LEA's that foolishly chose to blindly follow in the shadow of the FBI).

[Kingtubby]

deleted, wrong thread...

[M 7]

Originally Posted by Merkavaboy

Blaming one single Win 9mm STHP for the deaths of two agents and wounding of 5 others is the EPITOME of the extreme OSS theory.

That is a vast over-simplification of what happened.

I see the reasoning you are using, but I disagree.

As with such broad generalizations, a single aspect of an incident is given more weight than it should be and an incorrect assessment is drawn as a result.

[ergon]

Woo up. You've got your **** all wrong. It was determined by the board of review that it was primarily the tactics used in the Miami shooting not the rounds. I guess most are not privy to this but that's what we were taught at FLETC. And hell no we don't follow what the FBI does as benchmark.

[Tiro Fijo]

Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC

I don't usually agree with what you post but in this case I couldn't agree more.

Stick around, you might learn something.

[Merkavaboy]

Originally Posted by ergon

Woo up. You've got your **** all wrong. It was determined by the board of review that it was primarily the tactics used in the Miami shooting not the rounds. I guess most are not privy to this but that's what we were taught at FLETC. And hell no we don't follow what the FBI does as benchmark.

Actually it's the "others" on the opposite side of the spectrum that has it wrong. When I and others point out that it was their tactics that got themselves shot up, we're attacked and told that it was the failure of the STHP that didn't penetrate deep enough into Platt's chest that is/was at fault.

When the topic of the '86 FBI incident comes up again (and it will), I sure hope that you'll be there to post that it was the failure of proper Tactics and NOT one single STHP bullet that was their downfall.

[Tarowah]

Originally Posted by Merkavaboy

Exactly where did I even mention the HST? The HST is turning out to be one hell of a bullet design. I have 2 photos of 2 147HST bullets recovered from 2 DRT perps that had picture perfect expansion.



Two different calibers/bullet loads I mentioned before, the 9mm 115JHP+P+ and the .357Mag 125JHP both fail the defunct IWBA & FBI's ballistics tests, but have PROVEN THEMSELVES time and time again in the REAL WORLD!

No cop needs to PM me for my opinions on what works and what doesn't. All they have to do is contact the proper people at ISP, DeKleb Co SO or even USBP to find out how well the 9/115+P+ has worked for them under various conditions and circumstances. You can also contact Mas Ayoob personally for his input on these loads and the erratic failures of the old 9/147JHP subsonics that the FBI chose to use (and the many LEA's that foolishly chose to blindly follow in the shadow of the FBI).

Would you be willing to PM me the photos of the recovered 147gr HSTs? I carry that round and I would love to see the recovered bullets.

[KenB22]

Originally Posted by Merkavaboy

Exactly where did I even mention the HST? The HST is turning out to be one hell of a bullet design. I have 2 photos of 2 147HST bullets recovered from 2 DRT perps that had picture perfect expansion.

Which raises the question - why do you tout a bullet design that has more recoil and is more difficult to control in follow up shots when the 147gr HST works as well as it does? The HST also passes all IWBA tests. Why would you point the OP in the direction of a bullet that obviously is inferior to the 147 HST. You surely can't show me any data that suggests your preferred loads perform better through intermediate barriers than the 147 gr HST does.

[M 7]

Originally Posted by Merkavaboy

Actually it's the "others" on the opposite side of the spectrum that has it wrong. When I and others point out that it was their tactics that got themselves shot up, we're attacked and told that it was the failure of the STHP that didn't penetrate deep enough into Platt's chest that is/was at fault.

When the topic of the '86 FBI incident comes up again (and it will), I sure hope that you'll be there to post that it was the failure of proper Tactics and NOT one single STHP bullet that was their downfall.

This is hopeless.

If you can't stick to an argument, it is pointless to chase you around the table.



I give up. You win by virtue of persistent evasiveness.

[boomhower]

After doing a lot of research I'm going with the 147gr HST. With the reduced velocity of the 3" barrel of my P938 I have more confidence in it expanding plus the additional penetration seals the deal for me.

[ergon]

Originally Posted by boomhower

After doing a lot of research I'm going with the 147gr HST. With the reduced velocity of the 3" barrel of my P938 I have more confidence in it expanding plus the additional penetration seals the deal for me.

Sounds good. Looks like you're ready. Now some range time.

I just picked up four boxes of Federal HST Premium Law Enforcement yesterday.

[SCmasterblaster]

Why would anyone go with a hollow point at 900 FPS? It is well known that 9mm bullets need to be going over 1100 FPS to expand well.

[boomhower]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

Why would anyone go with a hollow point at 900 FPS? It is well known that 9mm bullets need to be going over 1100 FPS to expand well.

Not the 147gr. They are designed to expand at lower velocities which is the #1 reason I am going with them. With the short barrel I am giving up a lot of velocity so I like the 147 that is designed to expand at lower velocity, down to 800FPS in some rounds.

[happyguy]

Originally Posted by KenB22

Read my earlier post, Mas has said that Indianapolis police are doing just fine with their 147 gr HST's.

Last I heard IPD was using .40 S&W in the 155 gr. Federal Tactical Bonded flavor.

That was before the consolidation with the Sheriffs Dept so there may be some 9mm's in there now.

The Indiana State Police (ISP) does carry G17's but I don't know what ammo they carry.

Regards,
Happyguy

[M 7]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

Why would anyone go with a hollow point at 900 FPS? It is well known that 9mm bullets need to be going over 1100 FPS to expand well.

Winchester (and many other ammo makers, for sure) disagrees with you.

http://winchesterle.com/SiteCollecti...20Protocol.pdf

The are many offerings listed in the PDF that fall well short of the 1100 fps minimum you claim necessary for reliable expansion. Check it out.

[KenB22]

Originally Posted by happyguy

Last I heard IPD was using .40 S&W in the 155 gr. Federal Tactical Bonded flavor.

That was before the consolidation with the Sheriffs Dept so there may be some 9mm's in there now.

The Indiana State Police (ISP) does carry G17's but I don't know what ammo they carry.

Regards,
Happyguy

Thanks. You may be right. I re-read what Mas told me and he mentioned San Diego and Portland as having success with the 147gr HST. He said that all of the departments that he knows of using HST are using 147's.

[DustyJacket]

Originally Posted by boomhower

Link

Subsonic rounds for use in a suppressed gun.

I had 1,000 of the stuff and it does a fine job. No issues.

When I was on the job we used 147gr subsonic Hydrashocks.

Now that I am no loger on the job, I still tend to use slow heavy bullets. (Especially wih a suppressor )

It is not 'junk' in my opinion.

[alexanderg23]

Get some Hornady CD.. Next question.

[Merkavaboy]

Originally Posted by alexanderg23

Get some Hornady CD.. Next question.

Critical Defense would be the LAST ammo I would ever use.

[DustyJacket]

I had a box of CD for my PPK.
Shot a couple of rounds to test functioning and at least 1 every 2 rounds needed a second hit to go off. Sent the rest of the box back to Hornady (they were having QC issues with their CD ammo) but heard nothing back......