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Old 09-12-2012, 22:22   #1
Altaris
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The Top 10 Reasons I Donít Believe in God

One of my friends emailed this to me today. It is a pretty long article, but I found it well done. Many of the points made are things we see going on here constantly.


http://churchandstate.org.uk/2012/04...elieve-in-god/
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Old 09-13-2012, 06:24   #2
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A very well thought out list of arguments. Rational, logical and completely reasonable arguments that should, at the very least, make a person stop and think.

All of which have been repeated here over and over again with little to no effect. At least no effect on those that regularly post.

Hopefully they may be working on those that just read.
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Old 09-13-2012, 06:29   #3
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Logic has no place where faith is accepted without question.
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Old 09-13-2012, 06:41   #4
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I am a Christian. I appreciate these ideas. You are not going to talk me out of believing in God, and I am not going to talk you into it, but I am curious (as in I am not trying to stump you) as to your view on the where the "stuff" of the universe came from, and how life started. I am a theistic evolutionist and believe God used directed evolution after He created the stuff of the universe and life. Also, what about information theory...how does information i.e. the data encoded in DNA evolve? Again, I am just interested in your solution to these problems. I respect you regardless of your views.
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Old 09-13-2012, 06:54   #5
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The thing is, Arrow, that scientists can't explain what happened in the 'Before Time/Space.' Nor can they explain why quantum mechanics exposes so much absurdity at the building block level of the universe.

I for one believe that the answer to the debate between theists and humanists is simple: We are children, barely beginning to discern the truth.

Some theists are beginning to appreciate that the search for truth is not heresy.

That's a good thing. And many humanists are beginning to grasp the concept that the incredible complexity of the physical universe we are starting to understand points us to a spiritual (or at least metaphysical) puzzle that can't be ignored.

Again, we are barely beyond the infant stage in our understanding of the true nature of things. To bicker and argue about it is a toddler's game. We should all wonder (and wonder at) this amazing thing we call life.

Logic has its place, as does faith. We should all seek the truth - together.
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Old 09-13-2012, 07:04   #6
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Well put.
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Old 09-13-2012, 08:20   #7
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That's a good thing. And many humanists are beginning to grasp the concept that the incredible complexity of the physical universe we are starting to understand points us to a spiritual (or at least metaphysical) puzzle that can't be ignored.
Can you expand on this point with some examples?
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Old 09-13-2012, 08:48   #8
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Good read...sums up things pretty well.

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Old 09-13-2012, 09:49   #9
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but I am curious (as in I am not trying to stump you) as to your view on the where the "stuff" of the universe came from,
Well we are learning that simple elements like those that make up stars can be created from pure energy. With enough energy you can manufacture the building blocks of stars. And within stars other more complex elements can be created. So it's a bit of a chain reaction. The "stuff" didn't need to be there first. Just energy. As for where the energy comes from... I'm currently reading a book by Lawrence Krauss called "A Universe From Nothing". I'm trying to wrap my head around it but it seems they are close to understanding how particles can simply just appear from nothing. That "Nothing" is some how unstable and will always give rise to "Something"... I know it sounds crazy. I'm not gonna even try to explain it because as of yet... I don't understand it myself. But I'm learning.

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and how life started.
We are very close to recreating abiogenesis in a lab. In very basic terms we are close to understanding how, in the right conditions, RNA can simply come into being on its own via chemistry. And RNA is the foundation of DNA. And so on and so on. Apparently life is a chemical reaction and you just need the right mixture of ingredients to get it rolling. Why here? all the conditions are right. If they weren't we wouldn't be here to question it. And it's probably happening on other planets that just so happen to be in the right place with the right grocery list of ingredients.

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what about information theory...how does information i.e. the data encoded in DNA evolve?
I'd enjoy reading what some of our more learned members have to offer on that as well.

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Old 09-13-2012, 09:56   #10
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Originally Posted by ArrowJ View Post
I am a Christian. I appreciate these ideas. You are not going to talk me out of believing in God, and I am not going to talk you into it, but I am curious (as in I am not trying to stump you) as to your view on the where the "stuff" of the universe came from, and how life started. I am a theistic evolutionist and believe God used directed evolution after He created the stuff of the universe and life. Also, what about information theory...how does information i.e. the data encoded in DNA evolve? Again, I am just interested in your solution to these problems. I respect you regardless of your views.
I don't know. Not knowing does not mean a god did it.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:03   #11
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Well we are learning that simple elements like those that make up stars can be created from pure energy. With enough energy you can manufacture the building blocks of stars. And within stars other more complex elements can be created. So it's a bit of a chain reaction. The "stuff" didn't need to be there first. Just energy. As for where the energy comes from... I'm currently reading a book by Lawrence Krauss called "A Universe From Nothing". I'm trying to wrap my head around it but it seems they are close to understanding how particles can simply just appear from nothing. That "Nothing" is some how unstable and will always give rise to "Something"... I know it sounds crazy. I'm not gonna even try to explain it because as of yet... I don't understand it myself. But I'm learning.
...
Lawrence Krauss has a lot of stuff on youtube. I have generally leaned toward the cyclical model, because matter energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted, as far as I know, and it answers the question of where matter/energy came from with, it's always been. Lawrence Krauss has made me reconsider that.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:11   #12
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When you stand before God, tell him those 10 reasons.

(What I'd give to be a fly on the wall during that conversation.)
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:13   #13
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When you stand before God, tell him those 10 reasons.

(What I'd give to be a fly on the wall during that conversation.)
The old fear tactic huh? Believe or face his WRATH! LOL. How silly.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:15   #14
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Lawrence Krauss has a lot of stuff on youtube. I have generally leaned toward the cyclical model, because matter energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted, as far as I know, and it answers the question of where matter/energy came from with, it's always been. Lawrence Krauss has made me reconsider that.
It's bending my mind a little but I'm trying to consume as much of it as possible.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:17   #15
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The old fear tactic huh? Believe or face his WRATH! LOL. How silly.

Tell HIM that, too.....
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:20   #16
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Tell HIM that, too.....
I'll even spit in his mouth for ya. If I met such a being I'd have a few bones to pick with them about how poorly they designed everything.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:35   #17
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I'll even spit in his mouth for ya. If I met such a being I'd have a few bones to pick with them about how poorly they designed everything.

Would that be before or after God revealed his intentions to you?
Before or after you gained full awareness of his plan for you and all mankind?
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:39   #18
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I grew up in a Fundamental Baptist home and church, I am now in my mid 30s with a wife and 3 kids. i want nothing to do with Fundamental Baptists and I truly struggle with some of those 10 questions. I will say I do not think it was well written but i understand where he is coming from.
The problem I see on both sides of this debate is anger, intolerance and even hate.
In this forum alone the discussion turns downward right away.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:52   #19
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Would that be before or after God revealed his intentions to you?
Before or after you gained full awareness of his plan for you and all mankind?
Either way. I'd want to know why 99% of all species to ever in habit this planet went extinct? Why people are born with deformities and genetic diseases that cause them to suffer greatly (I mean he designed them right?)? And why He allows innocent people to suffer if he claims to love them so much? And why... if he's so damn perfect can't he have pulled of his wonderful mystical plan without leaving a trail of broken and suffering people in his path. There is no plan, and your imaginary friend isn't there.
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Old 09-13-2012, 11:03   #20
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Either way. I'd want to know why 99% of all species to ever in habit this planet went extinct? Why people are born with deformities and genetic diseases that cause them to suffer greatly (I mean he designed them right?)? And why He allows innocent people to suffer if he claims to love them so much? And why... if he's so damn perfect can't he have pulled of his wonderful mystical plan without leaving a trail of broken and suffering people in his path. There is no plan, and your imaginary friend isn't there.

What amazes me is that compared to all that's knowable in this universe, mankind's total knowledge is less than one drop of water in all the world's oceans.

Yet with that extremely limited knowledge, some people can declare, with certainty, that there's no God.

And if there is a God, he must really be screwed up.

Do you really think you've got it all figured out?
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Old 09-13-2012, 11:29   #21
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some people can declare, with certainty, that there's no God.
I claim that YOUR God doesn't exist because I know you sacred text to be faulty and man made. I can't say for sure if there is a more complex being out there than us. There isn't any proof one way or the other. I don't need to understand the entire universe or be able to answer all of man's burning questions to know that your particular man made God is just an archaic pipe dream.

Quote:
And if there is a God, he must really be screwed up.
If it is your God yes... because we're screwed up and he made us in his image.

Quote:
Do you really think you've got it all figured out?
Enough to shoot down your miserable mythology.
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Old 09-13-2012, 11:35   #22
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I'll even spit in his mouth for ya. If I met such a being I'd have a few bones to pick with them about how poorly they designed everything.
I believe the exact quote from satan was: Skin for Skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
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Old 09-13-2012, 11:46   #23
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I believe the exact quote from satan was: Skin for Skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
Hmmm... a quote from a being that was invented by men. Interesting. Here is another "Up, Up, and Away" (Superman).
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Old 09-13-2012, 12:21   #24
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What amazes me is that compared to all that's knowable in this universe, mankind's total knowledge is less than one drop of water in all the world's oceans.

Yet with that extremely limited knowledge, some people can declare, with certainty, that there's no God.

And if there is a God, he must really be screwed up.

Do you really think you've got it all figured out?
The atheists world is indeed a small and limited one.
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Old 09-13-2012, 12:28   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eracer View Post
The thing is, Arrow, that scientists can't explain what happened in the 'Before Time/Space.' Nor can they explain why quantum mechanics exposes so much absurdity at the building block level of the universe.
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The atheists world is indeed a small and limited one.
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Originally Posted by JBnTX View Post
What amazes me is that compared to all that's knowable in this universe, mankind's total knowledge is less than one drop of water in all the world's oceans.


The Ekpyrotic Universe: Colliding Branes and the Origin of the Hot Big Bang - Justin Khoury (Princeton), Burt A. Ovrut (Univ of Pennsylvania), Paul J. Steinhardt (Princeton), Neil Turok (Cambridge)

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We propose a cosmological scenario in which the hot big bang universe is produced by the collision of a brane in the bulk space with a bounding orbifold plane, beginning from an otherwise cold, vacuous, static universe. The model addresses the cosmological horizon, flatness and monopole problems and generates a nearly scale-invariant spectrum of density perturbations without invoking superluminal expansion (inflation). The scenario relies, instead, on physical phenomena that arise naturally in theories based on extra dimensions and branes. As an example, we present our scenario predominantly within the context of heterotic M-theory. A prediction that distinguishes this scenario from standard inflationary cosmology is a strongly blue gravitational wave spectrum, which has consequences for microwave background polarization experiments and gravitational wave detectors.
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JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."

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