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Old 09-10-2012, 21:23   #51
AK_Stick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 17&27 View Post
I wonder what Homeboy would do if say, on the initial assault of the preppers compound, a couple of his buddies were wounded and recovered by the preppers.
I would imagine that listening to your buddies scream while being skinned alive and disected slowly over 3 or 4 days could be pretty demoralizing. Preppers dogs and pigs have to eat too.
If met with a superior force you may have to make them believe that you are more savage, cold blooded and sociopathic than they could ever hope to be. They have to believe the risk is not worth the reward.
While thats a fine plan and all on paper, its the execution of it that fails.

Are YOU going to torture someone? I mean, yeah we're on the internet, everyone is tough. But even with my multiple combat tours, and 10+ years in the .mil, while I can honestly say the concept of killing is not something I'm foreign to. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to torture someone. Unless they've pushed me far beyond my breaking point (ala law abiding citizen)

Even if you think you're bad enough to torture someone. I think when the time comes down to it, and that hot blood is on your hands, you might choose otherwise.



Secondly, think of your repercussions. (speaking hypothetically here) If you catch one or two of my raiders, saw we wounded a few of yours, and were pushed back, and then I hear you're torturing my guys, what do you think thats going to do to your outcome? Do you really think they're going to turn around and just leave you?

Do you have any idea how easy it would be to post a few guys, and send the rest of the group elsewhere and just keep you penned up till you either run out of food/water/supplies, or we've picked you off?

Are you honestly prepared to condem your wife/kids/family/friends to rape/mutilation/torture, because you tried to scare off some people? And on that note, think about how thats going to affect your relationship with the people in your area. Word will get out.. Most people take a dim view of torture, no matter which side you're on. The next time you have a disagreement with farmer brown down the street, he might just shoot you in the back, because he's afraid he's next.


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Originally Posted by emt1581 View Post
I see what you are saying about a plan but it seems like most of your plan deals with acknowledging the routes of escape and/or attack...no?

What about staying hidden or attacking/defending?

Or is the plan still going to be to just "not be there" as is the common cop-out with most S&P threads that deal with gang/gov. forces?

Mind you I'm not being sarcastic or poking fun at you but that really is what most say. And sometimes you just can't avoid the fight or stay well hidden.

AK talked about a force multiplier. I think an AR vs. a lowly bolt .22lr MIGHT be an example. But for the average nuclear family, what would be others?

Thanks

-Emt1581
EMT, if your plan is to fight, its pretty simple. Plan to die.


The reason that "not to be there" is such a common answer, is because its the RIGHT answer.

As a single family group/unit even in a good numbered size, you simply can't hope to hold ground against a gang/.mil/.gov entity. They can pen you in, like Waco/Ruby Ridge/Every other hostage situation, and simply wait you out. It takes very, very few to hold you in, and they can resupply far easier than you.

In reality, if you're planning on slugging it out/holding your turf, you need not only a established, adequate supply chain, but you need a force of dedicated shooters. Because you need the guys fighting to be free from any/all other dutys to be out actively persuing/forcing engagements away from your turf, and a supply chain allowing them to return re-arm/re-equip, and leave again.

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Originally Posted by PaulMason View Post
There is a wide spread of people 8 - 15 and the size of what you are defending is important. You have to think in terms of shifts, area of coverage and reaction time.

If you just assume covering 4 directions/field of view with 8 people you would have to have 4 on and 4 off over 24 hours - maybe 2 - 12 hour shifts/day. And those on duty would have to have good communications with each other and the base. Not much of any other outside would would get done unless there were others at base.

y point is just throwing out a number of people does not say much about the situation.

Personally, I think going 'gray' gives those going alone the best chance.
The number, is loosely based upon the .mil doctrine of the fire-team/squad. And as I referenced, was talking simply about pure shooters.

If you've got that number of shooters, unless you're dealing with a whole crap ton of acreage, you're established well enough to be able to actually take/hold some ground. Without such a group, you're not going to be able to effectively do much, except defend your group in a pinch. But in doing so, pretty much curtails all other activity.


IMO, "going gray" is a terrible misnomer, because there are an awful lot of people who think they're awfully slick and "gray" and stand out like a sore thumb. Just because people don't stop to talk to you, or give you funny looks that you caught, doesn't mean people didn't notice. Infact, once you know what to look for, its often not that hard to notice them, because they make themselves evident.
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Old 09-10-2012, 23:23   #52
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My post was not specifically directed at you but in general, save that one point.


Anytime a person uses the term "fortified position" it makes me laugh because A.) 99% of people, including preppers, do not have or understand what a true fortified position is, and B.) Have no means, and C.) generally no idea at how to defend such a position, even if they were to acquire one.


But my point, and intention was not to call you out, and I'm sorry if you took it that way.
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Old 09-11-2012, 01:03   #53
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You guys really believe in all this Jericho prepping **** don't you? Crazy.
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Old 09-11-2012, 05:33   #54
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
While thats a fine plan and all on paper, its the execution of it that fails.

Are YOU going to torture someone? I mean, yeah we're on the internet, everyone is tough. But even with my multiple combat tours, and 10+ years in the .mil, while I can honestly say the concept of killing is not something I'm foreign to. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to torture someone. Unless they've pushed me far beyond my breaking point (ala law abiding citizen)

Even if you think you're bad enough to torture someone. I think when the time comes down to it, and that hot blood is on your hands, you might choose otherwise.
I like the second point...and it is a good one for good guys. Some bad guys with zero loyalty, even though they preach it, might cut and run....at least the ones I work with would. No one really tries to bust their friends/fellow-gang members out. No one even hangs around out front. And we are keeping them from their rap videos, drugs, and tacky clothing getups....that could be considered torture by some! But in all seriousness, I think your point is more valid for good guys with that emotional connection to their friends/family than thugs that have gathered together. Again, from what I've seen their loyalty only holds up until it impedes them in some way.

As far as warm blood and having the ability to carry out such a task...I may have misinterpreted you but are you saying combat/mil. experience is needed to do such a thing? I look at WWII and the butchers that Hitler employed. A few were of rank but I wonder how many had that front-line true combat experience??

I know I see people in agony and have that warm blood on my (gloved) hands pretty frequently. Doesn't really make me cringe or turn away...



Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
EMT, if your plan is to fight, its pretty simple. Plan to die.


The reason that "not to be there" is such a common answer, is because its the RIGHT answer.

As a single family group/unit even in a good numbered size, you simply can't hope to hold ground against a gang/.mil/.gov entity. They can pen you in, like Waco/Ruby Ridge/Every other hostage situation, and simply wait you out. It takes very, very few to hold you in, and they can resupply far easier than you.

In reality, if you're planning on slugging it out/holding your turf, you need not only a established, adequate supply chain, but you need a force of dedicated shooters. Because you need the guys fighting to be free from any/all other dutys to be out actively persuing/forcing engagements away from your turf, and a supply chain allowing them to return re-arm/re-equip, and leave again.
We prepare for every other possibility...why not this one?? Why get so excited to go belly up for such a situation and cling to the same defeatist perspective??

Would a safe escape route help (ex. tunnel, zip line, etc)?

You mentioned force multipliers...like what? I'm sure you're used to them on the military level but what about the civilian level?


Thanks

-Emt1581
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Old 09-11-2012, 05:50   #55
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Double Tap.

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Old 09-11-2012, 06:32   #56
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Big difference between a roving group of wilding youths try to kick the door in or peer in your windows & being targeted for resources in some organized manner.

When you are the target of sustained aggression, you get picked off...unless you have set-up like a FOB...which 99.9 do not.

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Old 09-11-2012, 07:07   #57
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
The number, is loosely based upon the .mil doctrine of the fire-team/squad. And as I referenced, was talking simply about pure shooters.

If you've got that number of shooters, unless you're dealing with a whole crap ton of acreage, you're established well enough to be able to actually take/hold some ground. Without such a group, you're not going to be able to effectively do much, except defend your group in a pinch. But in doing so, pretty much curtails all other activity.

OK - I think we are talking about two different things. I was thinking of perimeter security/look outs.
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Old 09-11-2012, 07:56   #58
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Originally Posted by emt1581 View Post

As far as warm blood and having the ability to carry out such a task...I may have misinterpreted you but are you saying combat/mil. experience is needed to do such a thing? I look at WWII and the butchers that Hitler employed. A few were of rank but I wonder how many had that front-line true combat experience??

I know I see people in agony and have that warm blood on my (gloved) hands pretty frequently. Doesn't really make me cringe or turn away...



No, I meant, even as someone who's been around combat quite a bit, and have much exposure to, torturing someone is still not something I'm prepared to do.


And I'm willing to be the majority of honest folk in the world, are not going to just throw themselves into.



While as an EMT you may see people in pain, you're not directly causing all that pain and suffering. Thats a pretty large emotional step.
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Old 09-11-2012, 08:39   #59
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I used to hunt ducks in your great state.......... DOC
Down toward stuttgart probably..? I hunt, but never could get into duck hunting. (Or bird hunting or fishing - basically, I hunt mammals I guess.) But duck hunting seems the worst of all of them to me personally. Getting up before dawn? Sure, do it most days. But get up before dawn just to put on rubber pants and stand in cold water? Not for me at all.

I always tell people that you can't say "duck hunting" without saying "duh".



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It's about the "time line". You have to be able to stay alive until society gells again, the crisis ends or enough of your buds conclude there's safety in numbers..
Again +1. One of my favorite lines in these discussions is that ALL shtf situations have one thing in common. Whether it's Katrina, an ice storm, the LA-King riots or even WW2, they have one common factor - they all ended at some point. That "some point" may be 72 hours or it may be 72 months; but it does eventually arrive. And when it arrives, we'll have to be ready to deal with the fallout of our actions taken in the interim. The authorities, our neighbors, and the man in the mirror all need to be able to believe that what we did during "that time" was right.

There are some who say that education is the most powerful thing in the world and some who say that love is the most powerful. Personally, I've come to believe that regret may be the most powerful thing, and I've already got enough of that in my life. I suspect that anyone with decent character likely has more of it than they want.

Would I do 'whatever' it took to protect my family? Sure. But that doesn't mean I have to look forward to it, or do it lightly.

On the "which approach" question (fight, flight, etc), the best way to not get hit imo is to not be a target, at least not any more than can be avoided - you never lose a fight that you don't get into. I may or may not get shot by the guy shooting in my direction, but I absolutely WON'T get shot by someone who's NOT shooting in my direction.

It's not practical or logical to think that we can guarantee we avoid all conflict - if it was, we could all sell our guns. But it's prudent & logical to do everything in our power to avoid as many as our conscience allows. If ethics, morality, or just lack of options, make a fight necessary, then by all means fight like a rabid dog on meth; but that's way down on my list as far as personal preferences.
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Old 09-11-2012, 08:54   #60
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AK Stick said,

'While thats a fine plan and all on paper, its the execution of it that fails.

Are YOU going to torture someone? I mean, yeah we're on the internet, everyone is tough. But even with my multiple combat tours, and 10+ years in the .mil, while I can honestly say the concept of killing is not something I'm foreign to. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to torture someone. Unless they've pushed me far beyond my breaking point (ala law abiding citizen)

Even if you think you're bad enough to torture someone. I think when the time comes down to it, and that hot blood is on your hands, you might choose otherwise.



Secondly, think of your repercussions. (speaking hypothetically here) If you catch one or two of my raiders, saw we wounded a few of yours, and were pushed back, and then I hear you're torturing my guys, what do you think thats going to do to your outcome? Do you really think they're going to turn around and just leave you?

Do you have any idea how easy it would be to post a few guys, and send the rest of the group elsewhere and just keep you penned up till you either run out of food/water/supplies, or we've picked you off?

Are you honestly prepared to condem your wife/kids/family/friends to rape/mutilation/torture, because you tried to scare off some people? And on that note, think about how thats going to affect your relationship with the people in your area. Word will get out.. Most people take a dim view of torture, no matter which side you're on. The next time you have a disagreement with farmer brown down the street, he might just shoot you in the back, because he's afraid he's next."

17's reply,

I respect your opinion as a combat veteran, and I'm not saying that the scenerio I described is to be used as a first resort or something to be done for the sport of it but, I don't doubt that a gang of scavengers would do this and worse to someone's wife and children if they were taken. If we're talking about hypothetical situations and being prepared is the goal, I think it is best to consider as many situations as possible and not rule out ANY tool that someone can use in these situations. You asked if I could torture someone, well if that appeared to be the only tool I had left to keep my loved ones from being tortured, I believe I could.

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Old 09-11-2012, 09:10   #61
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Down toward Stuttgart probably..? I hunt, but never could get into duck hunting. (Or bird hunting or fishing - basically, I hunt mammals I guess.) But duck hunting seems the worst of all of them to me personally. Getting up before dawn? Sure, do it most days. But get up before dawn just to put on rubber pants and stand in cold water? Not for me at all.

I always tell people that you can't say "duck hunting" without saying "duh".




Again +1. One of my favorite lines in these discussions is that ALL shtf situations have one thing in common. Whether it's Katrina, an ice storm, the LA-King riots or even WW2, they have one common factor - they all ended at some point. That "some point" may be 72 hours or it may be 72 months; but it does eventually arrive. And when it arrives, we'll have to be ready to deal with the fallout of our actions taken in the interim. The authorities, our neighbors, and the man in the mirror all need to be able to believe that what we did during "that time" was right.

There are some who say that education is the most powerful thing in the world and some who say that love is the most powerful. Personally, I've come to believe that regret may be the most powerful thing, and I've already got enough of that in my life. I suspect that anyone with decent character likely has more of it than they want.

Would I do 'whatever' it took to protect my family? Sure. But that doesn't mean I have to look forward to it, or do it lightly.

On the "which approach" question (fight, flight, etc), the best way to not get hit imo is to not be a target, at least not any more than can be avoided - you never lose a fight that you don't get into. I may or may not get shot by the guy shooting in my direction, but I absolutely WON'T get shot by someone who's NOT shooting in my direction.

It's not practical or logical to think that we can guarantee we avoid all conflict - if it was, we could all sell our guns. But it's prudent & logical to do everything in our power to avoid as many as our conscience allows. If ethics, morality, or just lack of options, make a fight necessary, then by all means fight like a rabid dog on meth; but that's way down on my list as far as personal preferences.
Been to Stuttgart only once,but have hunted White River, various private land (made friends with a logger who hunted),and Bayou Meade (?). But I'm past those years,gotten lazy!....... DOC
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Old 09-11-2012, 09:21   #62
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Been to Stuttgart only once,but have hunted White River, various private land (made friends with a logger who hunted),and Bayou Meade (?). But I'm past those years,gotten lazy!....... DOC
Bayou Meto probably; good area.
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Old 09-11-2012, 11:31   #63
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What "non-threatening" person is he going to send and how is that person going to find out who has what without being detected?

Also, what makes him think I'm going to just sit and watch him and 30 criminal street gang members roll up to my front door without doing anything (like opening fire) while he tries to force his way into my home?

As someone noted earlier gangs are about fear and intimidation.
His videos are merely meant to intimidate us. He and most gangbangers are a bunch of welfare twats without a brain or an ounce of common sense.

They will die off or be too weak to start heading for the burbs.
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Old 09-11-2012, 11:40   #64
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Bayou Meto probably; good area.
Killed a ton of ducks in there, good times
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Old 09-11-2012, 13:07   #65
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What "non-threatening" person is he going to send and how is that person going to find out who has what without being detected?
It could happen by accident. Some poor lady w/child is starving and you give them some food...a group stops them and shakes them down for the food and intel. "Yeah, the gray house with the long driveway", "..really, how many guys live there?".

Most people are not going to shoot down an unarmed person walking up to the house, let alone torture someone. They fear being held accountable for their actions, as well as being restrained by moral fiber.

We all start with a store some food and take a few precautions mentality here and then progress to concertina wire and sandbags because there's always a "what if" or an escalation of the scenario. People can't even survive a hurricane, but are going to use small unit tactics?

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Old 09-11-2012, 13:24   #66
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It could happen by accident. Some poor lady w/child is starving and you give them some food...a group stops them and shakes them down for the food and intel. "Yeah, the gray house with the long driveway", "..really, how many guys live there?".
Man, woman, small child, and baby in arms of mother walk up and ask for help - see what they can see and report back?

Have all binoculars and scopes disappeared because TSHTF? Or is it that they only work in the hands of the good guys.

------

I think much of what the guy in the video says is true - some preppers have all the answers, think like defenders not attackers, think the attackers are stupid etc.

The army has war games just for these reasons - to find out the weaknesses in their plans.
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Old 09-11-2012, 13:25   #67
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Reality check time...

In the 20th and 21st century to date, name one catastrophic event in this country that precipitated the kind of scenarios you guys are talking about?....(cricket sounds )

What on God's green earth makes you think that the US will suddenly go Barbarian?
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Old 09-11-2012, 13:35   #68
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Reality check time...

In the 20th and 21st century to date, name one catastrophic event in this country that precipitated the kind of scenarios you guys are talking about?....(cricket sounds )

What on God's green earth makes you think that the US will suddenly go Barbarian?
Where did anyone said it did or would?

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Old 09-11-2012, 16:39   #69
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It could happen by accident. Some poor lady w/child is starving and you give them some food...a group stops them and shakes them down for the food and intel. "Yeah, the gray house with the long driveway", "..really, how many guys live there?".

Most people are not going to shoot down an unarmed person walking up to the house, let alone torture someone. They fear being held accountable for their actions, as well as being restrained by moral fiber.

We all start with a store some food and take a few precautions mentality here and then progress to concertina wire and sandbags because there's always a "what if" or an escalation of the scenario. People can't even survive a hurricane, but are going to use small unit tactics?
Thats my point. Those people stand out.

When people start asking questions or strangers start needing help, I start getting very quiet and become very alert.
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Old 09-11-2012, 18:23   #70
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Reality check time...

In the 20th and 21st century to date, name one catastrophic event in this country that precipitated the kind of scenarios you guys are talking about?....(cricket sounds )

What on God's green earth makes you think that the US will suddenly go Barbarian?
Nobody is saying it will, however, three points.

1. Google Normalcy Bias. Your post is the very definition of it.

2. The barbarians are already here. They are always there within any civilization, supressed until there is a catastrophy that allows them to act with relative impunity. What do you think the criminal element is?

3. Even without a nationwide breakdown, individual areas of the U.S. may experience periods of disaster or unrest that cause local conditions where this type of threat exists. Off the top of my head, in the 20th Cen. we had the Great Depression and all sorts of riots. In the 21st we had Katrina and the current trend of flash mobs ransacking businesses and neighborhoods.

History is the ultimate "Reality Check." You were the one to invoke it, I hope you can learn from it. Disasters happen. Bad people and mobs act barbarous. Smart people prepare for that.

No society lasts forever or unscathed. What is magic about the 20th & 21st Century that makes you think civil war or other major disruption can't happen in the future? The vast majority of humanity has historically lived with the threat of displacement and barbarianism.

We have been fortunate (and I believe especially blessed) that in America this there has not been an existential threat on our soil for 250 years. The rest of the world, including advanced 1st world countries, have not been that blessed.
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Old 09-11-2012, 20:28   #71
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Reality check time...

In the 20th and 21st century to date, name one catastrophic event in this country that precipitated the kind of scenarios you guys are talking about?....(cricket sounds )

What on God's green earth makes you think that the US will suddenly go Barbarian?



So, because its been a little over a hundred years since its happened, that means it can't ever happen again?



No one is saying its going to, or it will, or when. We're simply talking about what could happen.
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Old 09-12-2012, 07:24   #72
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That "normalcy bias" pretty much nailed it down.

The USA may have a decent track record, however humanity doesn't...Serbs, Croats, Liberia, etc.

The old "thin veneer of society" saying comes into play. Sometimes the appearance of a good defense just keeps honest people honest....or at least from entertaining thoughts of shopping at your house.



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You guys really believe in all this Jericho prepping **** don't you? Crazy
-seatbelts, full tank of gas, full shelves, a gun, etc....it's called cheap insurance. I think it satisfies some primitive brain need...some people have been deprogrammed over thousands of years to even acknowledge "safety issues".

Last edited by beatcop; 09-12-2012 at 07:30..
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Old 09-12-2012, 08:25   #73
Foxtrotx1
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Originally Posted by beatcop View Post
That "normalcy bias" pretty much nailed it down.

The USA may have a decent track record, however humanity doesn't...Serbs, Croats, Liberia, etc.

The old "thin veneer of society" saying comes into play. Sometimes the appearance of a good defense just keeps honest people honest....or at least from entertaining thoughts of shopping at your house.





-seatbelts, full tank of gas, full shelves, a gun, etc....it's called cheap insurance. I think it satisfies some primitive brain need...some people have been deprogrammed over thousands of years to even acknowledge "safety issues".
I understand being prepared for bad weather, but the complete downfall of society?
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Old 09-12-2012, 08:37   #74
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Originally Posted by Foxtrotx1 View Post
I understand being prepared for bad weather, but the complete downfall of society?
My thinking is that if a person doesn't like guns, don't buy one. But, don't take away people's right to have a gun. If a person doesn't wants to prepare for rain but not to prepare for a hurricane that is their choice.
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Old 09-12-2012, 08:37   #75
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I've said it before and I'll say it here: they'd look better with lividity.
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