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Old 09-01-2012, 19:11   #1
parados
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Sheriff's Dept switches from 45 GAP to 9mm

"Last week, the office finished transitioning from a .45-caliber GAP Glock to a 9 mm handgun of the same brand..."

http://www.courierpress.com/news/201...guns-hed-herp/
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Last edited by parados; 09-03-2012 at 21:08.. Reason: Trimmed article length
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Old 09-01-2012, 19:29   #2
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It all makes sense to me. I'd done the same thing.
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Old 09-01-2012, 19:31   #3
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Wichita PD has switched from 40 to 9mm. The officers have their choice of a G17 or M&P9.
I wonder if it's all about the money? Perhaps stouter rounds aren't the best for some smaller statured officers? Dunno.
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Old 09-01-2012, 20:08   #4
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May want to edit your post so the whole article isnt copied.
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Old 09-01-2012, 20:12   #5
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When/where are they going to be sold off?
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Old 09-01-2012, 20:19   #6
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If I was an officer for that agency I would be ecstatic as you could practice with your duty gun on your own dime without going broke.

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Old 09-02-2012, 19:55   #7
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Makes sense, especially if it will save taxpayer money. Unless they end up in a situation where an innocent person or a deputy gets hurt because an assailant was not stopped after several hits with a 9mm. Then, they may end up switching back.
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Old 09-02-2012, 20:03   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlockPistola View Post
Makes sense, especially if it will save taxpayer money. Unless they end up in a situation where an innocent person or a deputy gets hurt because an assailant was not stopped after several hits with a 9mm. Then, they may end up switching back.

Smart move....The 9mm is just fine and works very well....
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:32   #9
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Dear Mrs. Jones,

Your husband, Officer Jones died in a gun fight because we thought it more important to save money on ammunition than to equip him to stop a murdering drug addict on PCP.

We did however manage to find the money for a leadership retreat in Las Vegas.
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:46   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glock_19guy1983 View Post
May want to edit your post so the whole article isnt copied.
Yes, please do.

Actually, the management prefers if you just include a link and paraphrase whatever you want to say in your own words. Copyright awareness has been a big topic on GT.

Now, back to the article:
Since the department goals was to cut training costs yet maintain a relatively soft shooting, controllable round, I wonder if it is a better idea to practice with a few range G17's and burn all the practice 9mm you want while keeping the G37's on duty?

Modern hollowpoint 9mm is "as good as" 45 cal ammo (also hollowpoint)? I do carry both so I don't feel inadequately armed. However, I'm not LEO and I much prefer 45 cal.

Notice that 45ACP was not considered for the very same reason 45GAP was replaced. Cost per round.
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Last edited by engineer151515; 09-03-2012 at 05:48..
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Old 09-03-2012, 06:10   #11
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Good decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by fasteddie565 View Post
Dear Mrs. Jones,

Your husband, Officer Jones died in a gun fight because we thought it more important to save money on ammunition than to equip him to stop a murdering drug addict on PCP.

We did however manage to find the money for a leadership retreat in Las Vegas.
I think that you missed the point. The change to 9mm will increase the skill and effectiviness of the officers. .45 (GAP or ACP) is a fine round. .40SW is also a fine round. However, when the most prestigious law inforcement agency publishs how the ideal pistol round should perform and every ammo maker build rounds in 9, .40SW and .45 GAP/ACP that meet the standard then the size choice makes little/no difference.

Also, we can all agree that shot placement is the number one factor in stopping the BG. More practice, more rounds in the gun and lower re-coil is nothing but good news.

The argument would be different if the gun was used for protection from large wild animals or hunting. But, most localities to not have thoes problems that need to be solved with hand guns. Hand guns are not replacements for rifles or shotguns.
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Old 09-03-2012, 10:31   #12
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"Also, we can all agree that shot placement is the number one factor in stopping the BG."

It was never stated in the article, that deputies had a problem with shot placement usig GAP. It's only about the money. Nearly every paragraph talks about dollars. The notion that one will practice more just because of a change in caliber is a joke. An officer who wants to maintain profiency will do so, no matter the caliber.

Last edited by Deye76; 09-04-2012 at 06:23..
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Old 09-03-2012, 21:27   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engineer151515 View Post
Since the department goals was to cut training costs yet maintain a relatively soft shooting, controllable round, I wonder if it is a better idea to practice with a few range G17's and burn all the practice 9mm you want while keeping the G37's on duty.
I agree. One of the huge advantages of the 45 GAP is a larger caliber round out of the same sized gun as the 9mm/40. I think if training costs were an issue - train with the 9mm for 80% of your range work, but carry the 45 GAP for increased stopping power. I do. The a G17 and G37 are nearly identical as are the G19 and G38.
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Old 09-04-2012, 19:39   #14
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Any idea if these used GAPs will be going up for sale to the public?
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Old 09-04-2012, 19:47   #15
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Personally, I was most accurate with a 45 GAP. But as a department supported by tax payers, I certainly understand the enormous extra cost of ammo between the two. As long as the officers are still safe, that's all that's important.

Last edited by TheExplorer; 09-04-2012 at 19:47..
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Old 09-05-2012, 07:39   #16
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The Glock .45 GAP is an excellent caliber. I love carrying my G39. It is the most reliable sub compact .45 caliber I ever used. The one problem is finding ammo at the local shop. It is available on line. Sad that cost was the reason the Sheriff went to the 9mm. I know the 9mm can get the job done. I believe the .45 GAP has a very good street record with many one shot stops reported.
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Old 09-05-2012, 07:48   #17
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The caliber wars will never end.

However, in actual use I have seen no difference whatsoever between the 9mm and the .45acp.

The. 45GAP is no different. It is a viable option, but hardly a death ray.

IMO- The police department made a wise choice.
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Old 09-05-2012, 11:15   #18
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"However, in actual use I have seen no difference whatsoever between the 9mm and the .45acp."

What are you referring to?
Velocity
Penetration
Expansion
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Old 09-06-2012, 06:52   #19
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Makes sense. 9mm is definately the best choice for officers that are not "gun enthusiasts". It is much easier to practice with. I can shoot alot more 9mm than .40, .357sig, or .45 before I get fatigued. Plus, the 9 will kill anything that the others will kill.
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Old 09-08-2012, 11:23   #20
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The reason NYSP wanted a better caliber because a trooper was killed because his 9mm 124 grain standard pressure Gold Dot failed to stop the bad guy. The .45 G.A.P. was chosen because it performed the best with the 200 grain Speer Gold Dot during ballistics test. Many agencies adopted it because it was a savings to replace the older pistols. Many say it was a sweet deal for them to make the switch to the .45 GAP. Now ammo costs are driving them to a cheaper alternative in the 9mm.
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Old 09-08-2012, 11:32   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hunter won View Post
The reason NYSP wanted a better caliber because a trooper was killed because his 9mm 124 grain standard pressure Gold Dot failed to stop the bad guy. The .45 G.A.P. was chosen because it performed the best with the 200 grain Speer Gold Dot during ballistics test. Many agencies adopted it because it was a savings to replace the older pistols. Many say it was a sweet deal for them to make the switch to the .45 GAP. Now ammo costs are driving them to a cheaper alternative in the 9mm.
Same old story. Then the 45 gap failed, so they switched to 40, then that failed once, then we moved to the 45acp and it didn't work once, so on and so forth.

The 9mm works just about everyday in NYC.

Last edited by diamondd2; 09-08-2012 at 11:33..
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Old 09-09-2012, 07:08   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcruse View Post
I think that you missed the point. The change to 9mm will increase the skill and effectiviness of the officers. .45 (GAP or ACP) is a fine round. .40SW is also a fine round. However, when the most prestigious law inforcement agency publishs how the ideal pistol round should perform and every ammo maker build rounds in 9, .40SW and .45 GAP/ACP that meet the standard then the size choice makes little/no difference.

Also, we can all agree that shot placement is the number one factor in stopping the BG. More practice, more rounds in the gun and lower re-coil is nothing but good news.

The argument would be different if the gun was used for protection from large wild animals or hunting. But, most localities to not have thoes problems that need to be solved with hand guns. Hand guns are not replacements for rifles or shotguns.
I didn't miss the point at all. My point is politicians tout saving money on efforts like this, yet waste tax dollars on BS expenses. That was my point. Prestigious law enforcement agency? Now try and tell me that anything with a title like that is not rife with subjective opinions and manufacturer "input".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deye76 View Post
"Also, we can all agree that shot placement is the number one factor in stopping the BG."

It was never stated in the article, that deputies had a problem with shot placement usig GAP. It's only about the money. Nearly every paragraph talks about dollars. The notion that one will practice more just because of a change in caliber is a joke. An officer who wants to maintain profiency will do so, no matter the caliber.
Deye76 makes my point.

A cop that wants to stay proficient will do so, regardless of the ammo. Those of you that perpetuate internet drivel about soaring costs of 45 GAP are uninformed. I consistently buy it for $18 a box, mostly from GT members. It is also cheaper to reload than 45 ACP (Small pistol primers)

Ultimately, pistol selection is much like shoe selection. You can tout shot placement (I do agree with you on that) penetration, caliber, velocity, whatever, at the end of the day, there is a good chance your shoe will not fit my foot and your pistol will not fit my needs.
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Last edited by fasteddie565; 09-09-2012 at 07:09..
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Old 09-09-2012, 08:21   #23
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With FBI Protocol testing, new high tech bonded ammo
and a positive actual track record from the street.
I wouldn't be surprised to see more department switching to 9mm.

Last edited by barth; 09-09-2012 at 08:22..
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Old 09-09-2012, 08:38   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barth View Post
With FBI Protocol testing, new high tech bonded ammo
and a positive actual track record from the street.
I wouldn't be surprised to see more department switching to 9mm.
That premium self defense 9mm ammo can cost more than JHP 45GAP ammo.

http://www.ammoengine.com/find/ammo/9mm?sort=1&group=2

price per round

Federal Power-Shok Jacketed Hollow Point 147 Jacketed Hollow Point $1.35

Federal Jacketed Hollow Point 115 Jacketed Hollow Point $1.43

Federal Premium Hydra-Shok Jacketed Hollow Point +P 124 Jacketed Hollow Point $1.55


Federal Premium Personal Defense Hydra-Shok Jacketed Hollow Point 135 Jacketed Hollow Point $1.70

Federal Premium Hydra-Shok Jacketed Hollow Point 147 Jacketed Hollow Point $1.80

Hornady Hornady Personal Defense XTP TAP-FPD Jacketed Hollow Point 147 Jacketed Hollow Point $1.38
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Old 09-09-2012, 09:08   #25
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Ammo cost can vary greatly with dept size. If large enough, and buying ammo by the millions of rounds per year (NYPD fires around ten million rounds a year) prices are quite good.

Smaller depts, not so much...
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