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Old 08-31-2012, 10:29   #76
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Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
Read the original post. I edited to the important points.



Sarge,

1) He was trying to get 1200fps and he got 1250fps in a shorter barrel gun.
2) Known good factory ammo with a much lighter bullet (155gr) only does 1300fps in his gun.
3) Guns really vary. You need to get a safe baseline as to what you can expect and not try and cross that threshold no mater what the data says "you should get".

I would be willing to work up a load using the exact components in the manual to max. But when you are mixing and matching primers, brass and bullets you need to be conservative. Not just shoot for a velocity because the book said you can do it.
I think I read the original post, but that info wouldn't indicate that Glock barrels are in fact faster (or slower) - especially with all the other variables. Am I missing something?

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Old 08-31-2012, 10:33   #77
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Originally Posted by SARDG View Post
I think I read the original post, but that info wouldn't indicate that Glock barrels are in fact faster (or slower) - especially with all the other variables. Am I missing something?

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Nope. It just varies.
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Old 08-31-2012, 10:40   #78
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Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
Test Conditions:
Handgun: Colt Delta Elite
Barrel: 5", 1 in 16" twist
Case: Hornady
Primer: Winchester WLP
Bullet Diameter: 0.400"
Maximum C.O.L: 1.260"
Max. Case Length: 0.992"
Case Trim Length: 0.987"

Load:
Bullet: HP-XTP
C.O.L: 1.260"
Powder: AA-7
9.3 gr -> 950 fps MIN
9.8 gr -> 1000 fps
10.4 gr -> 1050 fps
10.9 gr -> 1100 fps
11.4 gr -> 1150 fps
12.0 gr -> 1200 fps MAX

Throughout the range, 0.5 gr (more or less) yields an additional 50 fps. The curve certainly hasn't flattened out.

Hm...

Any chance the gun fired out of battery?

Richard
It was the end of my session so the chamber wasn't exactly clean. But I only fired maybe 100 rnds. I always rack a round from mag into chamber and NEVER drop one in manually via locked open slide. I purposefully 'drop' the slide as a habit and never 'ride' it. (pet peave) The remainder of the rnds that were in my mag have unchanged OAL. I mentioned before, I use a Redding Comp Die and i measured ea rnd individually for OAL before accepting it, in this case b/c I was working with max load. I used a Dillon 10mm Case Gage, also.
So, I guess there's a chance but I wouldn't know unless it was obvious after I racked the slide and looked at it. I typically look to make sure and also look when the slide stop kicks in on empy mag. After the KB, the case was stuck in the chamber and partially OOB. Looking back, I'd guess maybe 1/4"? I was still pretty stunned and was concerned about the pistol damage, at the time...after I checked that I wasn't damaged, of course.
FWIW, the blown case came out of the chamber pretty easily when i racked the slide.

This is part of the thing I'm trying to get in my noob head...how can a load go from usual case bulging to blowing without showing other case signs in between from previously fired rnds in the same batch?? I have to conclude that you're not always going to see 'smiles' when you're red-lining. But if you do, stop, obviously.
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Old 08-31-2012, 10:42   #79
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Originally Posted by SARDG View Post
I think I read the original post, but that info wouldn't indicate that Glock barrels are in fact faster (or slower) - especially with all the other variables. Am I missing something?

SARDG (Search and Rescue Dog, USCG)
Maybe... The load was supposed to deliver 1200 fps and we all suspect that load data is optimistic in terms of delivered velocity. So, how come the load actually delivered 1250 fps? To do that, based on the 0.5 gr per 50 fps curve from the Hornady manual, there was at least 12.5 gr of powder in the case. Probably more because the manual probably overstated the velocity in the first place. So, maybe 13.0 gr... Maybe even more if the velocity vs charge curve flattens out after 12.0 gr.

I'm just guessing... Maybe the type of barrel accounts for the extra velocity. But then, is there more, or less, friction?

And what happened to the bullets. More specifically, why didn't they hit the target? Shooter error? Sure, that is always possible - especially if I'm driving. But still, all the other rounds hit the target. Why were only these loads off the target?

Richard
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Old 08-31-2012, 10:45   #80
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Originally Posted by pasky2112 View Post
Just for kicks, and to try to show what I saw when looking at cases before the KB, I took a photo comparison of 4 cases shot that day in my G20. 3 are reloads ( one is pretty obvious ) and 1 of the grp is a factory load right out of the box.

L --> R = #1-->#4 Which is which?

Now tell me glocks don't bulge cases and I'd have to question whether you've ever shot a stk glock bbl b4. (flame guard on)
To be clear, I'm not trying to be pissy here. Just want to clarify what I meant by 'usual bulge' and what it means in terms of signs of dangerous pressure.
Kinda hard to tell exactly from the pic but the left 3 look like the spent .40 brass I have. Sort of a tiny "bulge" around where the feed ramp is.

I would say you either had a small over charge or bad piece of brass. Possibly that piece of brass had a defect or improper heat treat from manufacturing.
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Old 08-31-2012, 11:11   #81
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Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
Those are expanded not bulged. They will probably drop right in the factory barrel and you can probably spin them in the barrel. Try it.

If they don't spin they have a little guppie. You can't see it well in the picture. You may see it different because you have held them and see it better and know what to look for in the picture. But to me those look OK except the primers look flat but it's not easy to see.

That is just how Glock 10mm brass looks. A little barrel shaped.

BTW, I would guess you had a overcharge. Maybe not a double charge but a overcharge.

Are you using a Progressive Press?
Respectfully, maybe it's semantics but when I see a small area sticking out further then the rest of the case, i call it a bulge. When the case expands uniformly, respectively to the chamber, I call that expansion. Please, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just try to portray what i see.
Now I can DEFINITELY see what you mean by 'bulge' looking at the pic dkf posted earlier! But I've never had anything even close to that come out of any firearm of mine...it'd scare the S#!t outta me! ;-)

I've never had a fired case that wasn't resized fit into my chambers...factory or reload...pistol or rifle.

I thought they looked OK, too. That's why I didn't stop. Stopping with a case bulge as you defined it would be a no brainer. Also, yes, I use a Dillon 550b. But I use it almost like a single stage when I start new loads. That is, I stop and check the rnd at ea stage...measure powder, check OAL after seating and check case mouth diameter before/after i crimp on a FCD. I crimp enough to take out the flare and prevent setback. I believe I mentioned it in a prev post, but I pull the first few rnds to check my crimp. I've done the same routine for 1000's of rifle and pistol rnds since I learned it.

Thanks again,

- Dave
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Old 08-31-2012, 11:15   #82
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The easiest way to prevent a KB? Don't chase the velocity demon! Why must you achieve 1200 fps? I've been a reload for 3 decades. And I gaurentee you the best preformance and accuracy is almost always achieved below Max charges! Do not reload to get max velocity - go for performance and accuracy and you'll not have a KB ! Answer this simple question what would that load do at 1200fps that a load of 1100-1150 fps wouldn't do?
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Old 08-31-2012, 11:23   #83
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Originally Posted by WiskyT View Post
I have a hard time seeing a load published in the Hornady manual, if followed, blowing up a gun.

Also, the OP's belief that the previously fired rounds having the "typical Glock bulge" being "normal" makes me a little leary of his whole approach to reloading. Brass bulging is the last step before brass blowing out, which is what we have here. Regardless of the cause or the gun, bulged brass is a "clue" to stop what you are doing. In all my years reloading, I have only had two situations that produced bulged brass and once recognized, those situations were stopped.
I agree with you and Fred about the case bulging. What I call a bulge isn't appearantly what most of you would see as a bulge. See the pics i posted for clarification...hopefully. I'm not exactly a pro photog
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Old 08-31-2012, 11:29   #84
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Originally Posted by Gunnut 45/454 View Post
pasky2112
The easiest way to prevent a KB? Don't chase the velocity demon! Why must you achieve 1200 fps? I've been a reload for 3 decades. And I gaurentee you the best preformance and accuracy is almost always achieved below Max charges! Do not reload to get max velocity - go for performance and accuracy and you'll not have a KB ! Answer this simple question what would that load do at 1200fps that a load of 1100-1150 fps wouldn't do?
Agreed...100%. I got caught up in the 'muscle car' syndrome...Chuck Yeager, etc. My mistake. Live and learn...thankfully. Hopefully, for some time, others will see this thread and it will stop them from making a mistake. That's why i mostly bared it all out here.

Thank you,

- Dave
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Old 08-31-2012, 12:25   #85
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Originally Posted by pasky2112 View Post
Also, yes, I use a Dillon 550b. But I use it almost like a single stage when I start new loads. That is, I stop and check the rnd at ea stage...measure powder, check OAL after seating and check case mouth diameter before/after i crimp on a FCD. I crimp enough to take out the flare and prevent setback. I believe I mentioned it in a prev post, but I pull the first few rnds to check my crimp. I've done the same routine for 1000's of rifle and pistol rnds since I learned it.

Thanks again,

- Dave
So, were you weighing each charge and filling the cases with a powder funnel or were you using the Dillon powder measure?

Today I trickled some .308 loads. The Uniflow would throw 41.7 to 41.9 ALMOST every time and then it would throw 42.3. Just once in a while.

I would toss the heavy charge back in the powder measure and start over. But, in every case, I trickled the charge up to 42.2 gr. This was with IMR 4064 - a stick powder.

If you were using a powder measure there are any of a number of things that could go wrong. However, AA-7 is a spherical powder so it should meter pretty well.

Richard
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Old 08-31-2012, 12:57   #86
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Maybe... The load was supposed to deliver 1200 fps and we all suspect that load data is optimistic in terms of delivered velocity. So, how come the load actually delivered 1250 fps? To do that, based on the 0.5 gr per 50 fps curve from the Hornady manual, there was at least 12.5 gr of powder in the case. Probably more because the manual probably overstated the velocity in the first place. So, maybe 13.0 gr... Maybe even more if the velocity vs charge curve flattens out after 12.0 gr.

Richard
You can't realy extrapolate vel accurately in regards to powder charge. Most powders will not show a linear vel increase as the pressures increase. It may be diff from say 11.5-12gr vs 12-12.5gr. That can be a dangerous assumption depending on powders.
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Old 08-31-2012, 12:58   #87
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I agree with you and Fred about the case bulging. What I call a bulge isn't appearantly what most of you would see as a bulge. See the pics i posted for clarification...hopefully. I'm not exactly a pro photog
If you can see it, it's a case bulge. Again, 1000s of 10mm loaded & shot, some hot, never a case bulge. If Glock's are that sloppy, how much accuracy can you expect from a stock bbl?
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Old 08-31-2012, 13:14   #88
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So, were you weighing each charge and filling the cases with a powder funnel or were you using the Dillon powder measure?

Today I trickled some .308 loads. The Uniflow would throw 41.7 to 41.9 ALMOST every time and then it would throw 42.3. Just once in a while.

I would toss the heavy charge back in the powder measure and start over. But, in every case, I trickled the charge up to 42.2 gr. This was with IMR 4064 - a stick powder.

If you were using a powder measure there are any of a number of things that could go wrong. However, AA-7 is a spherical powder so it should meter pretty well.

Richard
I did weigh ea charge on my <$100 scale. ;-) I had noticed quite some time ago that if I rammed up the press (550b) but didn't throw a charge...(maybe because i was adjusting another die), the next charge would often throw heavy...from +.1g-.5g depending on the powder and how many times I rammed the press. Personally, I feel this is a design flaw but whatever. As a result of this discovery, I dump the following 3 throws back into the hopper and wiegh the 4th, which usually has the desired charge +/- .1g. In this case, if it weighed 11.9g-12.0g, I'd funnel it back into the case, seat a bullet and move on. Anything else I dumped and recharged. I found AA#7 does meter nicely, though. But I follow this procedure, irregardless.

That said, at this point, I'm not going to disagree with the possibility that one 'got by me' and could possibly have been .1g-.5g heavy. I'll go under oath saying I weighed them in the above manner. But we all know how that goes. I'm guessing this may have be what pushed to KB, in conjunction w/ the other possibilities already mentioned previously. (data cross-checking, frequent scale calib., etc.)
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Old 08-31-2012, 13:23   #89
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You can't realy extrapolate vel accurately in regards to powder charge. Most powders will not show a linear vel increase as the pressures increase. It may be diff from say 11.5-12gr vs 12-12.5gr. That can be a dangerous assumption depending on powders.
But in this specific case, as I posted above, there is almost exactly a 50 fps change in velocity per 0.5 gr change in charge from 950 fps to 1200 fps. In the progression, there are a couple of 0.6 gr changes (vs 0.5 gr) which means there is a little roundoff going on. For all practical purposes, over the range of 950 .. 1200 fps, the curve is linear. But that's for this powder with the HP-XTP bullet as tested by Hornady in a Delta Elite with 5" barrel.

Other loads will vary all over the place...

Richard
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Old 08-31-2012, 13:34   #90
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If you can see it, it's a case bulge. Again, 1000s of 10mm loaded & shot, some hot, never a case bulge. If Glock's are that sloppy, how much accuracy can you expect from a stock bbl?
I respect that, but I've never shot a round, factory load or otherwise, out of a factory glock bbl that didn't have the case shape, as you describe. Yet, the Glocks I've shot were all been plenty accurate for me. Certainly no less accurate than any other manuf. stock setup apple/apples. Frankly, I have .40 cases shot through nothing but my stock G23 that have been reloaded 15x's. They still reload fine and shoot to POA...whether that's where I'm looking or not. maybe a thread on chamber vs. barrel regarding accuracy would be an interesting topic.
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Old 08-31-2012, 13:56   #91
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If you can see it, it's a case bulge. Again, 1000s of 10mm loaded & shot, some hot, never a case bulge. If Glock's are that sloppy, how much accuracy can you expect from a stock bbl?
Enough to kill a bear at 25yds. That is what a 10mm is for right
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Old 08-31-2012, 14:00   #92
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I had noticed quite some time ago that if I rammed up the press (550b) but didn't throw a charge...(maybe because i was adjusting another die), the next charge would often throw heavy...from +.1g-.5g depending on the powder and how many times I rammed the press. Personally, I feel this is a design flaw but whatever.
Any volume measure is at risk of having a charge get heavier when you bump the machine. THEY ALL share that characteristic. When the open chamber is under a big hopper of powder bumping the hopper makes it settle into the chamber.
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Old 08-31-2012, 14:01   #93
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You can't realy extrapolate vel accurately in regards to powder charge. Most powders will not show a linear vel increase as the pressures increase. It may be diff from say 11.5-12gr vs 12-12.5gr. That can be a dangerous assumption depending on powders.
I always chart the velocity vs charge when working things up. If it gets non-linear/erratic I am done and back it down.
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Old 08-31-2012, 14:39   #94
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This is the Enos scale I have - but it's really backed up with frequent calibration, check weights, and a RCBS Chargemaster. Call me paranoid.
http://brianenos.com/store/be.scale_hp.html

I also check brass and primers frquently - but Federal primers always look flattened to me, so I've asked a few of our club's reloaders who have examined my shot brass and they all claim there is no problem.
Hi SARDG. Thanks for helping to protect my state...and country. Godspeed.
Quick question... when you say you check your primers and brass, what exactly do you mean? Are you just referring to them being seated correctly while loading or flattened/cratered after firing? Just curious if there was something else you do for safety measures. Also, I was thinking handguns..not rifles. Brass work in rifle loads...whole 'nother world.

Thanks again!

- Dave
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Old 08-31-2012, 15:01   #95
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For the money the Dillon Scale is way nicer then that one. I had that one, it didn't work. Got my money back. But that thing feels cheap and flimsy compared to a Dillon.
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Old 08-31-2012, 15:15   #96
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I agree with you and Fred about the case bulging. What I call a bulge isn't appearantly what most of you would see as a bulge. See the pics i posted for clarification...hopefully. I'm not exactly a pro photog
Agreed, those cases wouldn't have stopped me either. FWIW, I don't consider those cases "bulged". The one posted by DFK is what I think of when people say "bulged".
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Old 08-31-2012, 16:39   #97
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This whole thing about observing flattened primers but continuing to shoot that load just baffles me. I have established sub-max loads that I shoot for my calibers and I still habitually pick up the cases and examine them while at the range. I don't expect to see anything worrisome but there is zero doubt in my mind that I'd unload the gun and put it away if I saw anything out of the ordinary. Why ignore a sign that you knew meant trouble?

I don't ask this to be argumentative or to scold. I just tend to be curious about human behavior.
yeah. I understand where you're coming from.
I addressed this earlier... some handloaders discussed what they described a phenomenon of AA#7 flattening primers even in sub-max loads. Normally, I would have stopped with a flattened or cratered primer... yes.

Anyone else heard of this?
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Old 08-31-2012, 16:48   #98
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Hi SARDG. Thanks for helping to protect my state...and country. Godspeed.
Quick question... when you say you check your primers and brass, what exactly do you mean? Are you just referring to them being seated correctly while loading or flattened/cratered after firing? Just curious if there was something else you do for safety measures. Also, I was thinking handguns..not rifles. Brass work in rifle loads...whole 'nother world.

Thanks again!

- Dave
Thanks Dave. I don't load rifle yet, but expect to get a 'round tuit' eventually. I've been gathering Coast Guard 7.62 LC brass at the range for some time.

I currently load 9 mil and .45 with a 650, but have quick change kits and dies for .38 Spcl and 10mm. Ergo, my interest in this thread.

I don't do any special checking while loading except eyeing each powder charge. And I have the Dillon Powder Check system which is mostly good for noticing no charge or a double charge. Because I began loading ONLY to produce accurate, powder-puff match ammo, I am a bit picky (anal) and spot-check every 20th round or so for primer seating, OAL, crimp, gauge, and gross weight (which gives me a ballpark of correct powder weight.) With my 9 mil recipe, a double charge wouldn't fit in the case, but I don't want - or really expect - no-powder loads. Any real cartridge check comes later with a guage check, and then when thet're boxed I can see and feel out-of-place primers. I use Starline brass and MG bullets - sound familiar?

The brass and primer check I was reffering to was after the round was shot, looking for signs of anything being wrong or on the edge of being wrong. I've always thought the Federal primers I use look a little flat, but they're soft and others assure me there is no problem. I've also never had any kind of bulge in the 9s and spent brass from my G17 and 34 falls right back into the case gauge after being fired. Not exactly so with my .45s and G30 - but nothing unusual.

Unlike you however, I was pushing the lower limits of a charge - what can I load to be accurate, still make 125 PF, run the slide 100%, and be a soft shooter!

On another note... I used to get close to your neck of the woods frequently for Space Shuttle Launch patrols throughout the year on the Banana River, but we all know what's happened to US Manned Space Flight.
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Old 08-31-2012, 16:54   #99
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Just not true. I have fired a lot of rounds in a stock G20 bbl, Delta10 & 1006 over the years, none of my brass has any bulge what so ever. So if low pressure loads are bulging the brass, then something is wrong w/ the bbl. Bulged brass, any caliber, is unacceptable risk for little to no gain IMO.
I completely agree with the part in bold.

I don't want to belabor the point, but we must be talking about different things. And I am certainly not advocating that it is safe to shoot loads that produce abnormally-bulged brass.

Glocks DO have a distinctive expansion pooch ("bulge") that you can see with your eyes (or at least I can since my eyes are still hanging in there -- for now ). That is normal. 9, 40, 10, whatever.

I can pick up a piece of range brass and usually tell if it has been shot in a Glock without looking at the primer strike because of that distinctive little bulge. There is a bit of asymmetrical expansion about the pressure band. That will be different than your 1006 or Delta. The photos posted by the OP show what I am talking about clearly. It is a normal for a Glock. It is not unsafe.

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Old 08-31-2012, 16:56   #100
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For the money the Dillon Scale is way nicer then that one. I had that one, it didn't work. Got my money back. But that thing feels cheap and flimsy compared to a Dillon.
Have never seen, used or even fondled the Dillon, so can't personally compare. I can say that the RCBS 1500 (I have the combo) seems beefier than the BE High Performance, but I've never had a problem with the BE.
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