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Old 08-30-2012, 18:38   #51
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I have a hard time seeing a load published in the Hornady manual, if followed, blowing up a gun.

Also, the OP's belief that the previously fired rounds having the "typical Glock bulge" being "normal" makes me a little leary of his whole approach to reloading. Brass bulging is the last step before brass blowing out, which is what we have here. Regardless of the cause or the gun, bulged brass is a "clue" to stop what you are doing. In all my years reloading, I have only had two situations that produced bulged brass and once recognized, those situations were stopped.
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Old 08-30-2012, 18:49   #52
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Originally Posted by WiskyT View Post
I have a hard time seeing a load published in the Hornady manual, if followed, blowing up a gun.

Also, the OP's belief that the previously fired rounds having the "typical Glock bulge" being "normal" makes me a little leary of his whole approach to reloading. Brass bulging is the last step before brass blowing out, which is what we have here. Regardless of the cause or the gun, bulged brass is a "clue" to stop what you are doing. In all my years reloading, I have only had two situations that produced bulged brass and once recognized, those situations were stopped.
More than a clue! IF the brass is bulging, that load is over pressure for that gun, REGARDLESS of where the data came from.
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Old 08-30-2012, 19:16   #53
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Any of the brass look like this.

Reloading
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Old 08-30-2012, 19:22   #54
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Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
...And the rounds missed the plate. What's that about? A few extra FPS certainly didn't change the trajectory. I wonder if the bullet was driven so hard it just disintegrated.

Richard
I've dug completely intact MG CMJ bullets out of the impact berm that looked like I could reload them again - some still partially shiny gold (sans a few rifling marks). They're pretty tough.
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Old 08-30-2012, 19:32   #55
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
More than a clue! IF the brass is bulging, that load is over pressure for that gun, REGARDLESS of where the data came from.
I guess that depends upon what we mean by "bulge." Even bunny toot loads shot in a Glock barrel will give a Glock belly on the brass. In my opinion, those types of "bulges" are certainly not of excessive pressure for that gun. I wouldn't consider that bulged -- although others do and won't shoot out of a Glock barrel for that reason. I personally would not shoot a load in a KKM barrel that I deemed to be unsafe in a Glock barrel.

Having worked with A7 in 10mm, I like it. It is a good powder. However, 12.0 grains seems pretty warm to me. (Hornady has had at least one recent correction for A7 powder in the 10mm section, plus their 180 gr 800-X load gave excessive pressure symptoms below max). Accordingly, your advice about reviewing several different published loads is spot on, and part of my practice.

So take what I believe to be a fairly stout published load with little margin for oops. Combine that with a decent probability of a powder-weighing error for reasons already described, and bad things can happen.

As has been mentioned before, and I will echo, setup your scale; verify the scale settings with check weights, and carry on. A check weight set like is available from RCBS will give weight combinations to the 1/2 of a grain. That is a lot closer than a 100 gr check weight when tenths are so meaningful.

Accurate no. 9 is more suitable to get to 180 @ 1200. Some like Longshot or 800-X too, but I can't get there in a G20 without going over book - any book.
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Old 08-30-2012, 19:52   #56
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My full power loads in my G20 don't bulge the brass. The brass does expand to the size of the chamber. But that is normal.

This thread is a cautionary tale. I would bet that the OP's load data from Hornady is from a longer barrel and also from a test barrel not a real gun. Trying to get the same velocity as the book in G20 is just asking for trouble like the OP experienced.
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Old 08-30-2012, 20:45   #57
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For what it's worth, get you some Power Pistol, as 8.5gr gets you a tad over 1200 fps from a G20, and it's below book max. Great shooter too! Another thing, I personally have never got anywhere near claimed velocity with any Accurate Arms powder out of any cartridge.

There is often a rather large discrepancy between manufacturers data and 3rd party data. Always lean on the side of safety, it beats the pants off the alternative. Additionally, it's not uncommon for guys to work up loads in an aftermarket barrel that are really too hot to be honest, it's not an entirely safe habit to get into. You can get away with some things with an aftermarket bbl, but stay away from nuclear stuff in the stock setup.
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Old 08-30-2012, 21:29   #58
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I am also wondering why one would push the envelope by loading to max. I'm not savvy enough to figure out the motivation, other than being adventurous. Is there a significant ballistic effectiveness benefit at the very top end?
It is about finding limits. How slow can I go? How fast can I go? How heavy and how light?

But understand when doing this, I am loading one round at time with a scale that has proven time and time again to be accurate at delivering EXACTLY the amount of power I requested. I read and then bag my brass in zip lock bags with a tag so I know the day, temp, other weather conditions, powder, batch....... Then put all the data into a spreadsheet to analyze it when I can not get to the range.

Then there are the gel test.....

This is not a task for a bulk reloader on a progressive press.
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Old 08-30-2012, 21:31   #59
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Everyone is using a different book of course... but I found AA7 and power pistol to produce the same velocity using Layman's Max load. Neither hit 1200 fps but I was using less powder.
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Old 08-30-2012, 23:00   #60
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Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
I guess that depends upon what we mean by "bulge." Even bunny toot loads shot in a Glock barrel will give a Glock belly on the brass. In my opinion, those types of "bulges" are certainly not of excessive pressure for that gun. I wouldn't consider that bulged -- although others do and won't shoot out of a Glock barrel for that reason. I personally would not shoot a load in a KKM barrel that I deemed to be unsafe in a Glock barrel.

.
Just not true. I have fired a lot of rounds in a stock G20 bbl, Delta10 & 1006 over the years, none of my brass has any bulge what so ever. So if low pressure loads are bulging the brass, then something is wrong w/ the bbl. Bulged brass, any caliber, is unacceptable risk for little to no gain IMO.
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Old 08-31-2012, 07:19   #61
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This thread is a cautionary tale. I would bet that the OP's load data from Hornady is from a longer barrel and also from a test barrel not a real gun. Trying to get the same velocity as the book in G20 is just asking for trouble like the OP experienced.
According to Hornady 8th Ed., the gun was a Colt Delta Elite with a 5", 1 in 16" twist barrel using a Hornady case and Winchester WLP primer.

The Glock barrel is 4.61" - not a lot of difference but still, the muzzle velocities would be lower with the Glock.

Richard
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Old 08-31-2012, 08:46   #62
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Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
According to Hornady 8th Ed., the gun was a Colt Delta Elite with a 5", 1 in 16" twist barrel using a Hornady case and Winchester WLP primer.

The Glock barrel is 4.61" - not a lot of difference but still, the muzzle velocities would be lower with the Glock.

Richard

Can you post the complete data?
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Old 08-31-2012, 08:59   #63
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Originally Posted by dkf View Post
Any of the brass look like this.

Reloading
Yeah! Those are the best! That way I can reload it with more powder b/c there is more case volume!!

dkf, You're joking, right?

I'll take some pics of the brass and we'll play a little game...no tricks.

Also, I'll post the book data I used for those that don't have the Hornady 7th 10mm auto 180 JHP AA#7 data.
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Old 08-31-2012, 09:13   #64
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Yeah! Those are the best! That way I can reload it with more powder b/c there is more case volume!!

dkf, You're joking, right?

I'll take some pics of the brass and we'll play a little game...no tricks.

Also, I'll post the book data I used for those that don't have the Hornady 7th 10mm auto 180 JHP AA#7 data.
Pipe down scooter. That was posted up in general glocking some time ago. If memory serves me right it was one of the Swamp Fox loadings at the Max that was shot in a Glock barrel. Those loads were only recommended to be shot in a more supported tighter barrel like a KKM.
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Old 08-31-2012, 09:24   #65
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Originally Posted by SDGlock23 View Post
For what it's worth, get you some Power Pistol, as 8.5gr gets you a tad over 1200 fps from a G20, and it's below book max. Great shooter too! Another thing, I personally have never got anywhere near claimed velocity with any Accurate Arms powder out of any cartridge.

There is often a rather large discrepancy between manufacturers data and 3rd party data. Always lean on the side of safety, it beats the pants off the alternative. Additionally, it's not uncommon for guys to work up loads in an aftermarket barrel that are really too hot to be honest, it's not an entirely safe habit to get into. You can get away with some things with an aftermarket bbl, but stay away from nuclear stuff in the stock setup.
I actually have a keg of PP and it's one of my fave's in .40's. I also like AA#5. So when I purchased BD for 10mm, I threw in some other powders I wanted to try while I was paying hazmat. So I got a pound of AA#7, Win231 (for .40 also) and CCI #300's. As much as I liked AA#5 for the .40, the data for AA#7 looked like it'd be a good choice for both .40 and 10mm. Prior to the KB, I loaded and shot almost the whole pound of AA#7 and had no chrono walls, unusually bulged brass for a glock stk bbl...any more than you'd see in factory loads. The only thing notable was that I read from multiple resources was that they saw flattened primers with only warm loads using AA#7. I saw the same thing in my starting mid-range loads. So, Against my better judgement, I noted them but didn't see anything else at the time I thought was a 'red flag' to stop. So, FWIW.... I agree w/ you 100% about PP. And i will use it for 10mm and, of course, .40's.
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Old 08-31-2012, 09:31   #66
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Power Pistol is a lot Flashier then AA#7. #7 takes a lot more grs of powder to have the same velocity as PP. They both fill the case pretty well. I would not use PP inside. Way to loud and too much flash. BUT, I hate how fast #7 disappears as I am loading with it compared to PP. BOTH have the same max velocity in my analysis of load book data and then testing it over a chrono. Even if you find a source that says one is better then the other it's just not a big enough difference to worry about. Other powders are better for getting max velocity out of 10mm. 1150fps is no joke in a G20 and that is where I stopped. Anything much past that you are pushing the limits. As evidence by your KB at 1250fps.
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Old 08-31-2012, 09:39   #67
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Pipe down scooter. That was posted up in general glocking some time ago. If memory serves me right it was one of the Swamp Fox loadings at the Max that was shot in a Glock barrel. Those loads were only recommended to be shot in a more supported tighter barrel like a KKM.
I thought it was funny... but I still want to show what my brass looks like b/c i think didn't make it clear of what I meant by 'usual glock bulge'.

- Scooter :-)
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Old 08-31-2012, 09:48   #68
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Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
...The Glock barrel is 4.61" - not a lot of difference but still, the muzzle velocities would be lower with the Glock.

Richard
Doesn't Glock's polygonal rifling lead to higher velocities for a given barrel length?
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Old 08-31-2012, 09:51   #69
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Doesn't Glock's polygonal rifling lead to higher velocities for a given barrel length?
That's a good point! I have no idea. I wonder if there is a pressure difference for a given load in a Glock barrel versus, say, the Colt Delta Elite that Hornady used to test the load.

That might be another reason to stay with mid-range loads.

Richard
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Old 08-31-2012, 09:57   #70
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Originally Posted by pasky2112 View Post
I thought it was funny... but I still want to show what my brass looks like b/c i think didn't make it clear of what I meant by 'usual glock bulge'.

- Scooter :-)
Post up some pics, I like pics.

That sign off made me.
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Old 08-31-2012, 09:58   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SARDG View Post
Doesn't Glock's polygonal rifling lead to higher velocities for a given barrel length?
Read the original post. I edited to the important points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pasky2112 View Post
I was working up a load from the Hornady 7th guide... trying to get 180g MG JHP's to 1200fps with:

EDIT

With 10 rnds in mag, I fired the first rnd @ 1253 fps. Brass case-head was .433" w/ flattened primer BUT didn't hit target (paper plate @ 15y)...I'm not THAT bad.
Case had usual Glock bulge for hot rnd out of stk bbl...no smiles or other chamber lines noted.
Fired rnd 2. Same results but 1220 fps... no rnd on target, either. The ejected case was in same condition as first. At this point, what was on my mind is why the heck was I not hitting a freakin' 8" target @ 15yds!

EDIT

After I checked out all the G20 frame/slide/bbl/RSA parts for anomalies, I (maybe foolishly), fired a factory HDY 155g XTP that was in my 'carry mag'. I hit target @ POA at the expected speed of around 1300 fps. I collected everything, packed up and went home to my family, thank God.



Sarge,

1) He was trying to get 1200fps and he got 1250fps in a shorter barrel gun.
2) Known good factory ammo with a much lighter bullet (155gr) only does 1300fps in his gun.
3) Guns really vary. You need to get a safe baseline as to what you can expect and not try and cross that threshold no mater what the data says "you should get".

I would be willing to work up a load using the exact components in the manual to max. But when you are mixing and matching primers, brass and bullets you need to be conservative. Not just shoot for a velocity because the book said you can do it.
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Old 08-31-2012, 10:02   #72
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http://www.hornady.com/store/10mm-155-gr-HP-XTP/

They list the ammo as 1265fps out of a 5 inch barrel.
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Old 08-31-2012, 10:07   #73
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Can you post the complete data?
Test Conditions:
Handgun: Colt Delta Elite
Barrel: 5", 1 in 16" twist
Case: Hornady
Primer: Winchester WLP
Bullet Diameter: 0.400"
Maximum C.O.L: 1.260"
Max. Case Length: 0.992"
Case Trim Length: 0.987"

Load:
Bullet: HP-XTP
C.O.L: 1.260"
Powder: AA-7
9.3 gr -> 950 fps MIN
9.8 gr -> 1000 fps
10.4 gr -> 1050 fps
10.9 gr -> 1100 fps
11.4 gr -> 1150 fps
12.0 gr -> 1200 fps MAX

Throughout the range, 0.5 gr (more or less) yields an additional 50 fps. The curve certainly hasn't flattened out.

Hm...

Any chance the gun fired out of battery?

Richard
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Old 08-31-2012, 10:10   #74
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10mm Case Comparison - Glock Bulge

Just for kicks, and to try to show what I saw when looking at cases before the KB, I took a photo comparison of 4 cases shot that day in my G20. 3 are reloads ( one is pretty obvious ) and 1 of the grp is a factory load right out of the box.

L --> R = #1-->#4 Which is which?

Now tell me glocks don't bulge cases and I'd have to question whether you've ever shot a stk glock bbl b4. (flame guard on)
To be clear, I'm not trying to be pissy here. Just want to clarify what I meant by 'usual bulge' and what it means in terms of signs of dangerous pressure.
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Old 08-31-2012, 10:23   #75
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Now tell me glocks don't bulge cases and I'd have to question whether you've ever shot a stk glock bbl b4. (flame guard on
Those are expanded not bulged. They will probably drop right in the factory barrel and you can probably spin them in the barrel. Try it.

If they don't spin they have a little guppie. You can't see it well in the picture. You may see it different because you have held them and see it better and know what to look for in the picture. But to me those look OK except the primers look flat but it's not easy to see.

That is just how Glock 10mm brass looks. A little barrel shaped.

BTW, I would guess you had a overcharge. Maybe not a double charge but a overcharge.

Are you using a Progressive Press?
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