Facing a BG in body armor. Insights? - Page 4

beatcop · 07-25-2012, 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Chris

Obvious body armor? Shoot knees, feet, ankles. Take away their mobility. Drop them to the ground and reassess your aiming point. Legs also hold the femoral artery... bad news for the BG if that gets hit.

If lower extremities aren't available, take forearms, hand, elbows, or any other body part they are using to hold and aim their gun. If they can't control the gun they can't deliver

Not sure of exact scenario, but any theater with aisles and chairs will make any lower leg shots a nogo. When you shoot the track off a tank, it's now artillery...femoral artery is a long bleed process. Dead men can kill...he's bleeding out, but has minutes to continue his last acts. Try deer hunting.

Best practice...aim center mass and keep whacking away if you cannot summon the accuracy or have an appropriate pistol to make a head shot...your inaccuracies will make the arm shots you are hoping to land if the guy has a long gun...then "stitch" the button row to the head with multiple shots.

There will be no ankle, knee shots going on w/ a moving target/firing target when you are not behind solid cover with the luxury of time & accuracy.

This is why a 9mm hi-cap begins to appeal to me...hammer until you connect with an armpit, head, etc.

Guys are still debating the "trauma" of a vest hit....it is pain compliance only. The injury will not stop anyone...blunt force trauma from a 9mm is not going to push the guy's sternum to his backbone and crush his heart...lol. If you can take a fastball to the body, you will continue. Need penetration.

Chris Chris · 07-25-2012, 15:41

Hands are required to shoot the gun. Wrists, forearms, elbows are required to make the hands work properly. Put a bullet through those and the shooter's ability changes for the worse. If knees, ankles, feet, thigh, or any other unamored targets are available... take those. If he's dropped to the ground, he's not as effective.

Body armor covers vital chest areas. Maybe some neck & groin protectors thrown in. Hammering those repeatedly might distract the shooter, but they won't stop him.

Obvious body armor? Shoot him where there isn't any body armor. There's lotsa spots that involve joints and appendages that the shooter needs to function. Stick a bullet through those and the shooter's function is greatly diminished.

The objective is to a STOP the shooter. You don't have to hammer COM hits to do that. Just stop him.

If I can see hands on the gun, I'll shoot those. Elbows, knees, forearms? Yup. Any bullet I can stick into an active shooter will diminish their ability. That's good.

beatcop · 07-25-2012, 18:02

^

...ok, anything is better than a wall of backs trying to squeeze through a choke point...just shoot the fool with anything.

Misty02 · 07-25-2012, 23:08

This thread has been very educational, thank you!

I have a question. Are the representations made of this vest real? This gentleman has been shot, point blank, with a .40 caliber with just an almost unnoticeable flinch on his face. It doesn’t disturb his posture at all and it appears he is able to speak just fine after. It also appears to be very light. I sure wouldn’t put success on someone engaging, with a handgun, another covered with this stuff if the description is accurate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDRRJZ6rJBY&feature=player_embedded" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDRRJZ6rJBY&feature=player_embedded

Quote:

Originally Posted by TBO

1). Paralysis through analysis
2). Consider the actual physical environment

A dark movie theater, seats filled from a premier release. Eyes adjusted to watching the lit movie screen.
Eyes and focus on the movie screen.
Loud noises from... the movie? from ....what?!!!
Choking, gagging, eyes burning, eyes closing involuntarily, burning tight chest...
Screams, mass movement of people in all directions at once (in front of you, behind you, to both sides)...

If you had a gun on you, the conditions you'd face are overwhelming, even if somehow you'd be able to identify where and what the threat was.
Depending on where you are sitting, you may be a shooting victim at the onset, or you may have so much between you and the gunman shooting would certainly endanger multiple moving people.

Body armor engagement debates are on the lowest of issues that can be looked at for lessons.
Not saying there's nothing that can be gained/gleaned from a conversation in this area, just that on the hierarchy chart it's buried further down.

Respectfully,

TBO

jmho

Your post helps me to pose some questions/thoughts. Obviously, I want them stripped apart so I can learn from them and gain additional ideas and thoughts.

That theater is a close representation to the one we usually go to. We don’t usually sit in the first set of rows, seats are at the same floor level, you’re too close to the screen and have to spend the entire time with neck bent to look up. Our preferred seating is the second row (in the center) of the next section. We’ll still select that section but will make sure at least one of us is in the aisle seat followed by the rest of the family, or occupy two rows. When we do go to the movie theater there are usually 9-10 of us, 4 of us armed. If it is not an action movie there would be less of us with only 2 being armed. My thoughts on seating arrangement doesn’t mean we’ll attempt to run out, it just means it facilitates exercising that option if it is believed to be the best one.

Shooting with people running all over the place would not be something I consider unless it is necessary to distract the shooter (at least temporarily) while others attempt to reach him and take him off his feet (tackle and restrain). Hopefully the shot (if one is possible) would be enough to stop him but with heavy armor that may not be likely.

As respect other members of the family, especially children. While I don’t believe the seats provide cover, they will provide concealment (so long as the shooter doesn’t know they are there). It seems to me the best option would be to lie down on the floor, which would yield the smallest target for a bullet (the person’s side). Of course, this would be bad if the shooter decides to go row by row shooting at every body he sees laying on the ground that is not already bleeding.

Knowing the plan/intent of the shooter would be impossible, but it is not difficult to guess he’ll be shooting where he sees the largest number of people. To me that means that getting up and running to the exit would make that group a more attractive target, not to mention the high possibility of not being able to maneuver through all those steps (in the dark), falling and being trampled by others. I would be interested in knowing how many of the injured (and maybe even the dead) received their injuries from the stampede and not from a bullet. The path to that exit looks more and more as a death path, and not just from the actions of the shooter.

My calculated guess (probably a deadly error) is that this particular shooter might not have been effective in hitting an intended and specific target. In this particular case (perhaps not on the next one) that may give someone that is close enough an opportunity to deliver more than one shot that hits. The problem is that if he doesn’t even feel it, it will not yield the needed distraction.

He has to be taken off his feet to a position where he can be restrained by a few others. Which could be among the most effective way of accomplishing that?

Please tell me where I’m wrong and how can I improve the ideas going through my mind. I know it would be a very basic plan that would need to be adapted to the specifics of any other real scenarios. I’m looking for just that base to work with.

I will add, with something of this magnitude I’m not attempting think of a plan where I would walk out alive (although that would be preferable, of course). I’m trying to think of ways where the largest number of people in my family would live to tell the tale.
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Misty02 · 07-25-2012, 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by captdreifus

What if there was no time for you to fight, but time to protect your loved one?

Then you do just that and try everything possible to accomplish that objective.

There is no way my 1+ year old granddaughter will stay in place in such a chaotic scene. Someone might need to lay on her to pin her down if escape is not possible. If the shooter doesn’t leave the place with the masses as this one did other measures would have to be taken so she is not heard as well.

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Misty02 · 07-25-2012, 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkangel1846

Remember Body armour only covers heart and most of lungs.....open areas are head and neck, shoulders, arms, underarms, hands, lower abdomen, hips, groin, legs and feet. Anyone of those hits will slow a shooter down if not stop him/her. Don't get caught in the he's invinciable if he has body armour concept.

If this article is correct, he had:

Quote:

He was wearing a black ballistic or bullet-resistant helmet, a ballistic tactical vest with pockets, ballistic leggings, throat and groin protectors, a gas mask and ballistic tactical gloves, Oates said.

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Misty02 · 07-25-2012, 23:28

I guess this would be a case of the media quoting the Police Chief on something he never said? Not that it would surprise me, mind you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by happyguy

Fox News reported the other day that he was wearing a "tactical vest" made of nylon mesh.

Do you have information to the contrary?

Regards,
Happyguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by pipedreams

He had on a tactical vest with lots of pockets according to the place he bought it from. The helmet was something like a skateboard helmet rather than what was reported.
http://tacticalgear.com/news/colorado-shooting/

dcc12 · 07-27-2012, 10:04

If this is really a concern for you, get proficient with hitting face size target at the range while running off of your X.

beatcop · 07-27-2012, 14:49

http://www.federalnewsradio.com/473/...vive-a-shooter

Soft vid w/ some sheep instructions. Notice vid is 5.56 minutes...

beatcop · 07-27-2012, 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcc12

If this is really a concern for you, get proficient with hitting face size target at the range while running off of your X.

If you shoot a couple times a year, forget it...you're not making a head shot on a moving/shooting target unless you are at contact distance.

Hammer the body with a couple shots, track subsequent shots up the chest into head region if he doesn't drop. If the fool turns out to be wearing a "pouch" vest instead of armor, all the better.

deputy1199 · 08-03-2012, 13:56

The latest info as of this date is that the Colorado movie shooter was wearing black tactical clothing, and some sort of helmet and a gas mask - but no body armor. And a gas mask would not be adequate protection against bullets. So, head shots would have been effective to stop this rampage. And so would shots to center body mass if someone had been available to fire them. The fact that in this day and age nobody in that theater -- not a single off duty officer or lawful CCW holder -- was armed and in a position to take action against an active shooter amazes me. It just reinforces my decision to carry all the time, everywhere it is legal.

captdreifus · 08-03-2012, 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Misty02

Then you do just that and try everything possible to accomplish that objective.

There is no way my 1+ year old granddaughter will stay in place in such a chaotic scene. Someone might need to lay on her to pin her down if escape is not possible. If the shooter doesn’t leave the place with the masses as this one did other measures would have to be taken so she is not heard as well.

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That was a rhetorical question. My friend died protecting his girlfriend. There was no time for him to fight it out.

Misty02 · 08-03-2012, 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by captdreifus

That was a rhetorical question. My friend died protecting his girlfriend. There was no time for him to fight it out.

I know he did and thankfully he accomplished his objective.

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Misty02 · 08-03-2012, 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by deputy1199

The latest info as of this date is that the Colorado movie shooter was wearing black tactical clothing, and some sort of helmet and a gas mask - but no body armor. And a gas mask would not be adequate protection against bullets. So, head shots would have been effective to stop this rampage. And so would shots to center body mass if someone had been available to fire them. The fact that in this day and age nobody in that theater -- not a single off duty officer or lawful CCW holder -- was armed and in a position to take action against an active shooter amazes me. It just reinforces my decision to carry all the time, everywhere it is legal.

Which reliable source has disputed the original comment made by the Chief of Police where he originally stated the suspect was wearing body armor?

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**kirgi08** · 08-03-2012, 20:23

pm me.'08.