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Old 07-17-2012, 21:00   #41
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
So he just wasn't modern enough to be as clever as you?

Seriously?
Nah, he covered more ground in his life than I will likely ever be able to in mine, but why would I start anywhere other than where he left off? Should I go backward to theism? Should I assume he got it all wrong? I think not.

You'll have to excuse me, I have to go attend services at the Temple of Science now...

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Old 07-17-2012, 21:17   #42
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Well, that's an awful pretty straw man ya got there mister.

Actually, it's rather simple. There is no evidence proving the existence or absence of a deity in the history of the universe. Quite frankly, none of us know. Some of us choose to believe that no deity has ever existed. It is a choice based solely on faith. But that's an entirely different subject.
I'd be interested in your response to this thread.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1432667

Specifically to the first post and not to the tangent it's run off on by page 2.
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Old 07-17-2012, 21:21   #43
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Nah, he covered more ground in his life than I will likely ever be able to in mine, but why would I start anywhere other than where he left off? Should I go backward to theism? Should I assume he got it all wrong? I think not.

You'll have to excuse me, I have to go attend services at the Temple of Science now...

Sure thing.

But, just goes to show you, the more you know, the more you realize you don't know.

Nah, you made your choice. You have every right to make it. The ability to be so sure of yourself when there is no evidence either way is illustrative though.

There is a point where pride becomes hubris.
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Old 07-17-2012, 21:27   #44
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There is a point where pride becomes hubris.
You really need to watch Altaris's video if you are interested in identifying hubris.
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Old 07-17-2012, 21:27   #45
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Well, that's an awful pretty straw man ya got there mister.
Really? Have I misstated your position? Last I knew, you thought atheism was a religion.

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Actually, it's rather simple.
I agree. Why do you keep complicating it?


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There is no evidence proving the existence or absence of a deity in the history of the universe. Quite frankly, none of us know. Some of us choose to believe that no deity has ever existed. It is a choice based solely on faith. But that's an entirely different subject.
You keep saying that, but it simply isn't true. Just because there are two possible answers doesn't mean each one carries equal weight.

Let's say a patient presents to you with what appears to be chicken pox. You do your thing, and the evidence appears to point to chicken pox. But, couldn't it also be the curse of a witch doctor? Do you treat it as if it's chicken pox, or as if it's a curse? After all, since you can't prove it isn't a curse, doesn't that possibility carry as much weight as it actually being chicken pox?

Yes, this is a frivolous example, and I know you like to pretend there's some profound difference because of the supposed weightiness you assign to the deity/no deity argument, but that supposed weightiness is meaningless to atheists (well at least to me). I acknowledge that there is no proof that there are no deities, but also that there is an overwhelming lack of evidence they do exist. Therefore, I reject the assertion on those grounds, and do not pretend that both arguments carry equal weight simply because neither can be absolutely proven.
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Old 07-17-2012, 22:13   #46
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The real problem with the proposition that Cavalry Doc puts forward (which Dr. Tyson describes so eloquently in the video posted by Altaris) is that if everyone subscribed to it then all progress on the topic would come to a halt.

Suppose the question of the existence of a supreme deity is solvable, but it will take generations of research and analysis to do so. If we all just throw up our hands and give up because there is no way for us personally to know then noone is working on the problem anymore and those necessary intermediary steps are never achieved.

Like the video describes, we know what we know today about orbital mechanics because Laplace built upon the work of Huygens who built upon the work of Newton who built upon the work of Gallileo and Copernicus, etc, etc. None of them could get there in one step, but if any of them had given up we would not be as far along as we are today in our understanding.

Cavalry Doc proposes that the answer is unsolvable. That is hubris. He has no way of knowing that and by suggesting it he (and others that hold the same position) hinder those among us who actually might be able to.
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Old 07-17-2012, 23:35   #47
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The real problem with the proposition that Cavalry Doc puts forward (which Dr. Tyson describes so eloquently in the video posted by Altaris) is that if everyone subscribed to it then all progress on the topic would come to a halt.

Suppose the question of the existence of a supreme deity is solvable, but it will take generations of research and analysis to do so. If we all just throw up our hands and give up because there is no way for us personally to know then noone is working on the problem anymore and those necessary intermediary steps are never achieved.

Like the video describes, we know what we know today about orbital mechanics because Laplace built upon the work of Huygens who built upon the work of Newton who built upon the work of Gallileo and Copernicus, etc, etc. None of them could get there in one step, but if any of them had given up we would not be as far along as we are today in our understanding.

Cavalry Doc proposes that the answer is unsolvable. That is hubris. He has no way of knowing that and by suggesting it he (and others that hold the same position) hinder those among us who actually might be able to.
I think by "unknowable" he means that there's no amount or type of evidence that would convince him. It's a heads I win tails you lose proposition. Even if there was a perfect unified theory of everything that explained it all right back to a point where the math showed how it all began and several quadrillion years of nothingness before that and our FTL telescopes at the edge of the universe confirmed it there would always be those theists like Doc who just needed it to be true so much they will always claim the possibility because you can't show what happened before that quadrillion years.

In fact he would claim it's an equal probability because you can't prove 101% either way.
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Old 07-18-2012, 04:49   #48
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Really? Have I misstated your position? Last I knew, you thought atheism was a religion.



I agree. Why do you keep complicating it?




You keep saying that, but it simply isn't true. Just because there are two possible answers doesn't mean each one carries equal weight.

Let's say a patient presents to you with what appears to be chicken pox. You do your thing, and the evidence appears to point to chicken pox. But, couldn't it also be the curse of a witch doctor? Do you treat it as if it's chicken pox, or as if it's a curse? After all, since you can't prove it isn't a curse, doesn't that possibility carry as much weight as it actually being chicken pox?

Yes, this is a frivolous example, and I know you like to pretend there's some profound difference because of the supposed weightiness you assign to the deity/no deity argument, but that supposed weightiness is meaningless to atheists (well at least to me). I acknowledge that there is no proof that there are no deities, but also that there is an overwhelming lack of evidence they do exist. Therefore, I reject the assertion on those grounds, and do not pretend that both arguments carry equal weight simply because neither can be absolutely proven.

The analogies are entertaining, but very unnecessary. Obviously, there is nothing quite so profound as the beginning of the answer to the question,"why are we here".

I think if you'll go back, you'll see that you stated your case, and attributed it to me. And yes, quite plainly that was a straw man you built.
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Old 07-18-2012, 05:27   #49
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
The real problem with the proposition that Cavalry Doc puts forward (which Dr. Tyson describes so eloquently in the video posted by Altaris) is that if everyone subscribed to it then all progress on the topic would come to a halt.

Suppose the question of the existence of a supreme deity is solvable, but it will take generations of research and analysis to do so. If we all just throw up our hands and give up because there is no way for us personally to know then noone is working on the problem anymore and those necessary intermediary steps are never achieved.

Like the video describes, we know what we know today about orbital mechanics because Laplace built upon the work of Huygens who built upon the work of Newton who built upon the work of Gallileo and Copernicus, etc, etc. None of them could get there in one step, but if any of them had given up we would not be as far along as we are today in our understanding.

Cavalry Doc proposes that the answer is unsolvable. That is hubris. He has no way of knowing that and by suggesting it he (and others that hold the same position) hinder those among us who actually might be able to.
When have I ever said it was unsolvable? It's currently unknown. Currently, we have know way to know, but that surely has not stopped scientific progress to date? In fact, admitted ignorance has led to huge advances, as people seek the answer. Sometimes, cool stuff is found along the way that you weren't even attempting to find. Penicillin for example.

Even if it is impossible for anyone in my generation to know, that would have absolutely zero effect on most of us wanting to find a cure for cancer, ways to control the weather, etc etc etc....

Admitting you don't know something is sometimes the first step in great discoveries.
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Old 07-18-2012, 06:41   #50
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When have I ever said it was unsolvable? It's currently unknown.
What else are we to take from your statements?. You have gone as far as saying that it is hubris to think we can know this answer. If it is hubris to think that then certainly it is hubris to search for it as well since maybe we'll find it and you've already stated that claiming to know it is hubris.

Your philisophy on this point is an intellectual dead end. It leads to know further answers and I want answers. So, I choose to discard it and keep searching.

Quote:
Even if it is impossible for anyone in my generation to know, that would have absolutely zero effect on most of us wanting to find a cure for cancer, ways to control the weather, etc etc etc....
You keep changing around what other people say and arguing against that and you still have the nerve to accuse others of strawman arguments?

I wasn't referring to it inhibiting science in general, I was referring it to inhibiting the quest to answer this specific question. Maybe the question of whether god does or does exist is actually knowable. There might be a definite path to a definite answer.

Admitting you don't know now doesn't progress you down that path to an answer. All it does is leave you stumped. If an answer is to be found then it will come from someone(s) that has figured it out and set out on a specific course to prove it. That is where discoveries come from.

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Admitting you don't know something is sometimes the first step in great discoveries.
Sometimes happy accidents do occur and someone finds something they are not looking for, but I am not aware of any examples of major discoveries that were found by first admitting that it is unknown (or can't be known). The scientific method starts with someone thinking they know the answer (a hypothesis) and then setting out on a course to either prove or disprove it.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:00   #51
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Here is a good quote from the artical.

"As Carl Sagan so memorably put it - we are the universe experiencing itself".

The awesomeness of humanity can not be seen, believing that mankind is evil, and the only way this world is going to work out, is by God stepping in and fixing things.
God is not going to step in. It is important to argue against religious thought for this reason, to me.

I also get something spiritual out of testing my own belief against the beliefs of others. I grow.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:52   #52
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What else are we to take from your statements?. You have gone as far as saying that it is hubris to think we can know this answer. If it is hubris to think that then certainly it is hubris to search for it as well since maybe we'll find it and you've already stated that claiming to know it is hubris.

Your philisophy on this point is an intellectual dead end. It leads to know further answers and I want answers. So, I choose to discard it and keep searching.
How is it hubris to search for and learn knowledge? I'm certain that you've jumped to the wrong conclusion. It would be hubris to claim to have an answer without sufficient evidence. I've never been against learning more, and must point out that you've misrepresented my position badly.

Quote:
You keep changing around what other people say and arguing against that and you still have the nerve to accuse others of strawman arguments?

I wasn't referring to it inhibiting science in general, I was referring it to inhibiting the quest to answer this specific question. Maybe the question of whether god does or does exist is actually knowable. There might be a definite path to a definite answer.
And if you care to go back and search, I've said I believe it is possible to know, but that we currently don't know. Not sure how you came to that conclusion about my position either, but we are seeing a trend.

Quote:
Admitting you don't know now doesn't progress you down that path to an answer. All it does is leave you stumped. If an answer is to be found then it will come from someone(s) that has figured it out and set out on a specific course to prove it. That is where discoveries come from.
Admitting you don't know can just as easily lead to the search for an answer. On this question, what would be your first step?

Quote:
Sometimes happy accidents do occur and someone finds something they are not looking for, but I am not aware of any examples of major discoveries that were found by first admitting that it is unknown (or can't be known). The scientific method starts with someone thinking they know the answer (a hypothesis) and then setting out on a course to either prove or disprove it.
And how does one come up with a hypothysis? Do they already know the results of experimentation? Nope, on occasion, one is not certain of the outcome, so therefore, actually goes through the process to see what they find.

Are you sure you're familiar with this process? Your steps are not in order, it begins with a question, not a hypothysis.

Quote:
The steps of the scientific method are to:
Ask a Question
Do Background Research
Construct a Hypothesis
Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment
Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion
Communicate Your Results
Do you think that may be a factor in your previous poor conclusive skills?
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:36   #53
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And how does one come up with a hypothysis?

Are you sure you're familiar with this process?
At least I know how to spell hypothesis.



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Do you think that may be a factor in your previous poor conclusive skills?
Keep playing this way and I'll play this way back.
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Old 07-18-2012, 11:03   #54
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At least I know how to spell hypothesis.





Keep playing this way and I'll play this way back.
Tell you what, to be fair I'll take full responsibility for the spelling error, you take full responsibility that your entire line of reasoning was illegitimately based on you misunderstanding the basic principles of how scientific knowledge is acheived.

We'll call it even.
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Old 07-18-2012, 11:46   #55
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Tell you what, to be fair I'll take full responsibility for the spelling error, you take full responsibility that your entire line of reasoning was illegitimately based on you misunderstanding the basic principles of how scientific knowledge is acheived.

We'll call it even.
Tell you what, I'll concede that my entire line of reasoning was illegitimate if you concede that religion is a scourge on the human race that must be eliminated if we are ever to be truly free.

And then we'll call it... totally lopsided in my favor.

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Old 07-18-2012, 11:54   #56
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Old 07-18-2012, 12:56   #57
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Tell you what, I'll concede that my entire line of reasoning was illegitimate if you concede that religion is a scourge on the human race that must be eliminated if we are ever to be truly free.

And then we'll call it... totally lopsided in my favor.

You are correct about one thing, that would be lopsided.

Sorta embarrassing when you make those kinds of mistakes, but I thought you would be reasonable about it. Sorry, my mistake. You are clearly motivated by your agenda.
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Old 07-18-2012, 12:57   #58
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Religious Issues
Quotes by fictitious characters don't usually play well here.
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Old 07-18-2012, 13:11   #59
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You are correct about one thing, that would be lopsided.

Sorta embarrassing when you make those kinds of mistakes, but I thought you would be reasonable about it. Sorry, my mistake. You are clearly motivated by your agenda.
You seriously think you've stumbled onto a meaningful point, don't you? Every atheist in this thread has already accomplished the first two steps long ago. We are here testing our hypothesis. So far, I've never seen a believer bring any sort of credible argument. Therefore, it remains intact.

CD, you are either having to much fun pulling people's strings or you are to blinded by your "agnosticism" to be able to carry on a rational conversation.
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Old 07-18-2012, 13:17   #60
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CD, you are either having to much fun pulling people's strings are you are to blinded by your "agnosticism" to be able to carry on a rational conversation.
I have been trying to figure that out too. Is my troll radar just failing me and I am just falling victim to one, or does he really believe everything he is typing.
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