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Old 06-23-2012, 10:45   #21
K.Kiser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomski12 View Post
I prosecuted a murder case where the defendant used a 20 ga shotgun. It only took one shot to be lethal.
My first electrical Boss was an ex-police officer... He saw three murders involving 20 gauges in particular, all were lethal and non were buckshot or slugs.. They were all well under 50' shot distance... Two of the occurences were indoors where the assailant didn't make it out of the house, and third didnt make it out the yard where he was shot...

Non of this surprised me as I've hunted all my life and have seen volumes of examples of flesh versus different firearm cartridges... At 30-35 yard the damage becomes moderated on flesh --- 30 feet is different outcome...
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Old 06-23-2012, 11:28   #22
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Dead is dead and a 20ga. with #3 buck in will definately get the job done. In a home defense situation. I don't care how big you are 20 .25 caliber balls coming at you and hitting you at 1250 FPS and it's over.
As mentioned
Mas Ayoob made a good case for the 20 in his book and he made a good point. To paraphrase,

a centered pattern with either 12 or 20 and only your coroner will know the difference.

12Ga's are nice but for HD I'll take a 20Ga.

Last edited by Bob Hafler; 06-23-2012 at 11:29..
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:23   #23
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Thanks much for the top rate info on the differences relating to 12 and 20 gage. I haven't considered a "shotty" for a while lately, but reciently I have wanted something a little more serious for my wife (and for that matter myself) living here in hurricane land. Even though we haven't had a major hit here in Jacksonville since the 60's, there's no reason to be overly trusting about it either. Karen (my wife) is a little over burdened with my defense rifles, and though she is a good shot with one, as well as w/ her Glock, she needs something lighter but with serious channel changing traits in the bargan.

I think a double barrel 12Ga. with lighter recoil 00 buck may be the solution. They are light and manuverable in say a hallway situation (short overall length) and with the greater variety of ammo, what's more to want? I know the limitations of two shots, but they are two sure quick shots with no worries about jacking a slide. I know I won't get her to the range to shoot much, so two sure shots of 00 could be a happy if not perfect match.

Thanks again to all.

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Old 06-25-2012, 09:33   #24
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I started with 20 ga. really enjoyed it. So I just stuck with it it.

Like some one else mentioned, there is less loads available, but I have what I need.

My suggestion...Go For It!

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Old 06-25-2012, 16:10   #25
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Originally Posted by ZombieJoe View Post
I started with 20 ga. really enjoyed it. So I just stuck with it it.

Like some one else mentioned, there is less loads available, but I have what I need.

My suggestion...Go For It!

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Absolutely... There are more 12 ga. stuff available, but that don't mean there is a shortage of useful ammo for the 20... All I've ever really needed is light birdshot, squirrel/ pheasant load, and buckshot.. Not too hard to find..
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Old 06-26-2012, 05:36   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.Kiser View Post
Absolutely... There are more 12 ga. stuff available, but that don't mean there is a shortage of useful ammo for the 20... All I've ever really needed is light birdshot, squirrel/ pheasant load, and buckshot.. Not too hard to find..
Agreed any good Gun Store should have no problem supplying you with 20.Ga. loads. I've had no problems getting different size birdshot, #3 buck or slugs for a 20 Ga. locally.
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Old 07-06-2012, 15:08   #27
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Have a SxS 20 ga w/ hammers. With the 18" bbls, #3 buck load, stock cuff w/5 spare rds, and a carry sling it is an awesome HDW. I did take it deer hunting a couple of times when my Mossy 500 spring got weak and wouldn't load the shells to the chamber.I
didn't really miss the Mossy pump gun. All is fixed now and still thinking of using the 20ga. Bought a new, never shot 12ga H&R Survivor Shotgun to team up with the SxS, and it is a single shot. everyone should own 3 or 4 types of Shotgun to be covered.
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Old 07-11-2012, 12:39   #28
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Originally Posted by tomski12 View Post
I prosecuted a murder case where the defendant used a 20 ga shotgun. It only took one shot to be lethal.
...and if hit in the right spot one shot with a .22 can be lethal as well...


G19 - Gen 3
G37 - Gen 3
NEF Pardner SBI 12 Ga.
Savage Model 24 - .22LR/410
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Old 07-12-2012, 16:31   #29
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Settled for a 12 ga. Stoeger Coach gun. Reasonably good price. Got to get to the range and pattern it and practice reloads. Thanks for the input.

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Old 07-12-2012, 17:43   #30
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Originally Posted by dajcarroll View Post
...and if hit in the right spot one shot with a .22 can be lethal as well...


G19 - Gen 3
G37 - Gen 3
NEF Pardner SBI 12 Ga.
Savage Model 24 - .22LR/410
big difference.

I have a .22 here that has killed more deer than any gun I know of. It. a flashlight, and some skill fed my Dad's family through the depression. That does not mean I think it is a great deer rifle. It does not mean I would choose it over a 20ga for deer and hence I wouldn't chose it over a 20ga for SD either. Once again, See Massad Ayoob's "StressFire-shotgun" for a good evaluation of the 20ga as a SD choice.
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Old 07-12-2012, 18:41   #31
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Back on topic...

There is a new post on Box Of Truth about Fed 132-1B that's worth looking at however the beginning of that review is where this discussion should be. For those prone to tl;dr, the essence is that Fed didn't make 132-1B because no one asked them to make a high end #1 buck round. No one asked for it because it didn't exist and on and on it went until someone did ask and then pester and ask again.

As I've said in other posts, if we want a high end Flite Control type of 20 gauge ammo, you need to start sending email to all the major producers and tell them why you want it.

They make money selling stuff and they are not going to refuse to sell something they can make money off of. We demand enough of something and it will get produced.
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Old 07-12-2012, 19:33   #32
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20 gauge rifled slugs would be more than adequate for any mammal that can walk in North America
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Old 07-12-2012, 19:53   #33
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Back on topic...

There is a new post on Box Of Truth about Fed 132-1B that's worth looking at however the beginning of that review is where this discussion should be. For those prone to tl;dr, the essence is that Fed didn't make 132-1B because no one asked them to make a high end #1 buck round. No one asked for it because it didn't exist and on and on it went until someone did ask and then pester and ask again.

As I've said in other posts, if we want a high end Flite Control type of 20 gauge ammo, you need to start sending email to all the major producers and tell them why you want it.

They make money selling stuff and they are not going to refuse to sell something they can make money off of. We demand enough of something and it will get produced.

I picked up 5 boxes a while back, and hoped to pattern test it at the range today - no dice. The range I went to is a no-shotgun range at the moment while they remodel.
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Old 07-12-2012, 19:55   #34
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Originally Posted by Buffering View Post
Back on topic...

There is a new post on Box Of Truth about Fed 132-1B that's worth looking at however the beginning of that review is where this discussion should be. For those prone to tl;dr, the essence is that Fed didn't make 132-1B because no one asked them to make a high end #1 buck round. No one asked for it because it didn't exist and on and on it went until someone did ask and then pester and ask again.

As I've said in other posts, if we want a high end Flite Control type of 20 gauge ammo, you need to start sending email to all the major producers and tell them why you want it.

They make money selling stuff and they are not going to refuse to sell something they can make money off of. We demand enough of something and it will get produced.

Look at how fast they came up with loads for the .45/.410 revolvers.
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Old 07-12-2012, 20:52   #35
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Ok, enough of us hens sitting around clucking at and to each other. I just fired off this email to Federal.

"I am writing to ask that you produce a self defense/home defense round in 20 gauge that is similar to your LE 132. As I, and a number of shooters age, the shoulders don't like lots of 12 gauge ammo, even if it is low recoil. Instead, we're switching to 20 gauge for sport and self defense however the market is void of a capable round that has similar properties to LE 132. Additionally, smaller stature shooters may not like a 12 gauge and are more comfortable with a 20 gauge for self defense.

You recently started offering 132-1B and it my understanding that it wasn't produced sooner because no one asked for it and no one requested a high end 20 gauge round because none were on the market. I'm now asking.

If you read the various shotgun forums and threads, there is a great swell for a good 20 gauge SD/HD round and yet, none exist. The closest is #3 or #4 buck but it's what people are choosing because they don't have a better choice. If you develop a 132 type of round for 20 gauge, I predict you will be very surprised at how well the market reacts.

Thank you."

If we want it we have to ask.
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Old 07-23-2012, 19:36   #36
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I read Mas' Stressfire II and he does in fact offer a VERY strong case for the 20 gauge as a HDW. Basically you're getting 75% of the buckshot downrange with only half of the recoil one would get with a 12. To my way of thinking, that's a great trade off for the ladies.

I liked the idea so much, I bought my fiance a 20 gauge Mossberg 500 Bantam pump. If you aren't familiar, that's their youth size. She's 5'5" and about 120 lbs. It fits her perfectly. It took about 10 shots before she became DEADLY with it. She LOVES it. The only real issue is that its hard to find buckshot for it, but I did find a few boxes of #4 buck. I feel like she's very well protected with her Mossberg 20.
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Old 07-23-2012, 19:55   #37
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So hop in that airplane, fly to Federal and ask that they produce a good SD 20 gauge load. I asked and we need others to ask if you want it.

Just have to roll up your sleeves and get your hands a little dirty on this one.
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Old 09-20-2012, 18:01   #38
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I previously emailed Federal asking for a 20 gauge FC load similar to their PD or LE132 loads and what I receive was silence.

Silence doesn't help bring those necessary rounds to market and so just a few minutes ago I sent them another request which I'm posting here.

I don't mind pestering them every couple of months however if others here want to see that load, feel free to email like I did. Here's the email I just sent.

"The purpose of my writing is to happily report that I'm very pleased with your PD132 and LE132 loads in my 870 and to ask you to bring to market the equivalent in 20 gauge.

I've been shooting for decades and while it's enjoyable as ever, the joints just can't shoot a 12 gauge as much as I'd like. As an early babyboomer, I don't intend to let age keep me from the sport I enjoy and there are other babyboomers like me who feel the same way.

As the years roll on, a 20 gauge 870 looks more inviting but no one makes a PD132 or LE132 equivalent. You should.

Federal was ahead of the curve with FliteControl ammo and if you survey the gun forums and the market, it's the rightful gold standard that everything is compared with. By bringing a 20 gauge FliteControl round to market, you would, once again, be ahead of the curve.

If you look at the gun forums, people like the 20 gauge, are moving to it as they age but there is universal lament for less than ideal self defense rounds.

I am convinced, as an avid shooter, that you will be handsomely rewarded by meeting this need and I urge you to develop a FliteControl load. I'll even help you test fire them.

Thanks"
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Last edited by Buffering; 09-20-2012 at 18:02.. Reason: I added more
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Old 09-21-2012, 11:31   #39
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They replied with a generic reply that I'm posting however take note that the request is being passed on.

We all know it's technologically feasible so that is not a concern. Instead, most large companies want to see if there is "market demand" before investing resources in a potential product. That's how LE132-1B came about - people kept asking and demanding.

I'll still email them but they aren't going to make these rounds just for me, even though I'm special and drenched in Awesome Sauce.

"Thank you so much for the kind words and suggestions. We have been working more and more on low recoil loads and it wouldn't surprise me if this is on our radar. I will forward this suggestion to the product development people and from there we will have to wait and see. Thanks again and thank you for being a loyal customer.

Thanks
Federal Premium"
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Old 09-22-2012, 07:42   #40
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I bought a 870 youth with the 21" barrel for my mother a while back for HD. It hurt her hand in the web. I shot it quite a bit to break it in and it did surprise me how much recoil it had compared to a 12ga 18.5". It has standard wood furniture. Is that the culprit. I was shooting mainly the remington 100/box of 7.5 shot.
Some of the problem I know is a weak grip. But she is 65.
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