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Old 07-04-2012, 14:44   #101
SWIll
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Wow. Old thread. This subject always reminds me why I am so fond of revolvers with double action triggers. JMHO.
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Old 07-04-2012, 15:21   #102
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Originally Posted by SevenSixtyTwo View Post
Many forces around the world carry empty chamber including our US Navy. Our son can draw and chamber one with his M9A1 smoother and faster than I can get my shirt out of the way. So can this guy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUd2FzZm70w
What if he looses the use of his left hand and/or arm?
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Old 07-04-2012, 15:29   #103
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Same thing if the gun jams or stovepipes etc. Rack the slide on your belt or anything available. Having your left arm unavailable is always the predicted scenario on gun forums. It could be your right arm or both arms. If you're cold cocked it could be lights out. You can predict you'll use your left arm to fend while drawing with your right hand but that may not be the case when it happens. He's not going to stop because you put your hand out. He's likely going to sack you like a quarterback and you might fumble the gun if you can draw it. I've been mugged once and attacked by a gang initiating a new prospect once many years ago. Both times took me out before I would have had the chance to do anything. The mugger actually asked if I was alright when I came to before he ran off with my cash. The gang left me for dead and a Marine on leave stayed with me until the ambulance took me to the ER. Once an attacker gets ahold of you, unless you have some Steven Segal moves handy, you're likely not much better with or without one chambered. There's a really good chance you won't be able to draw at all. SA and avoidance are our best defenses. Keep some distance. Be safe.
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Here is some fuel for thought for those who don't carry condition one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syxrpLbaEuY
Watch the video....maybe it will change your mind. Keep in mind she KNEW THE THREAT WAS COMING!
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Old 07-04-2012, 16:03   #104
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What if he looses the use of his left hand and/or arm?
Then he racks the slide on his belt. Try it with your Glock. It actually works pretty good. The edge of anything like a table wil also work. The plan is, in his line of work, that a suspect won't be in a position to take his left arm. With a Beretta, I'm surprised that empty chamber is the policy.
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Old 07-04-2012, 16:05   #105
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Watch the video I quoted in my post. Remember that she KNEW the threat was coming. Do you think you will have time to rack the slide?
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Old 07-04-2012, 16:08   #106
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I've seen that video before. A staged video can have any outcome you want it to have. I'm sure she doesn't walk out to her car at Walmart with her hand on the grip even as people pass close to her. A real world situation would be far different. SA and avoidance is still the best policy for the average CWFL holder. I carry my G26 and LCP chambered but I can easily understand the apprehension about it.
I feel for the crack head that tries to rob this guy.

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Old 07-04-2012, 16:13   #107
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Draw and chamber with one hand. Also not real life but it can be done.

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Old 07-04-2012, 16:15   #108
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Originally Posted by SevenSixtyTwo View Post
I've seen that video before. A staged video can have any outcome you want it to have. I'm sure she doesn't walk out to her car at Walmart with her hand on the grip even as people pass close to her. A real world situation would be far different. SA and avoidance is still the best policy for the average CWFL holder. I carry my G26 and LCP chambered but I can easily understand the apprehension about it.
I feel for the crack head that tries to rob this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUd2FzZm70w
I feel for him because as you pointed out "A staged video can have any outcome you want it to have."

I think an empty chamber is a liability not an asset to the equation....

Last edited by Southswede; 07-04-2012 at 16:16..
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Old 07-04-2012, 16:19   #109
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Draw and chamber with one hand. Also not real life but it can be done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMsAvWOEj-k
Sure it can be done. But are you confident enough to bet you life on being able to do it under the extreme pressure of a lethal confrontation? I'll go out on a limb here and say you/me and MOST won't be able to.......
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Old 07-04-2012, 17:13   #110
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Ok, now these videos. Is anyone GRABBING them? Is either of them forced to use one hand to draw the weapon? Is their hands wet, say from rain or hot Texas summers? Is any of them on the ground with the BG with just one hand free? Or is either of them moving? Struggling? Blocking punches?

Now in the perfect world you should have two hands available. But this sure ain't no perfect world.

Unless there are some pretty exigent circumstances, chamber loaded is the superior method.

All you need is a good holster that covers the trigger and does not collapse when you draw. That and KYFFOTFT until you have cleared the holster and your anatomy.

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Old 07-04-2012, 17:14   #111
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Sure it can be done. But are you confident enough to bet you life on being able to do it under the extreme pressure of a lethal confrontation? I'll go out on a limb here and say you/me and MOST won't be able to.......
I am. So are all of my co-workers. Really not that big a deal.

Anyone who carries a pistol should be able to do the one-handed draw/cock and all the malfunctions drills. If not you are lacking in your training whether you carry a round in the chamber or not.
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Old 07-04-2012, 17:48   #112
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yea i just completed the LE academy and we went over this, even if you have a live round taped to the outside of the firearm no mag in, nothing in the chamber its still "loaded" according to CA law...
Here's a link to calguns.net regarding what's "loaded" in CA.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=103660

In that thread it states in part:

"THIS 12031(g) DEFINITION HAS BEEN MODIFIED BY CASE LAW!!!

The case is People v. Clark (1996) 45 Cal.App.4th 1147 , 53 Cal.Rptr.2d 99"

And...

"The key paragraphs of the decision are these:
Quote:
The term "loaded" has a commonly understood meaning: "to put a load or charge in (a device or piece of equipment) a gun" or "to put a load on or in a carrier, device, or container; esp: to insert the charge or cartridge into the chamber of a firearm." (Webster's New Collegiate Dict. (1976) p. 674.) Under the commonly understood meaning of the term "loaded," a firearm is "loaded" when a shell or cartridge has been placed into a position from which it can be fired; the shotgun is not "loaded" if the shell or cartridge is stored elsewhere and not yet placed in a firing position. The shells here were placed in a separate storage compartment of the shotgun and were not yet "loaded" as the term is commonly understood."


And further more here's a case in the past couple of years in San Fernando, CA where charges were filed and later dropped over a "loaded" firearm due to the Clark decision.

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/in...?topic=27966.0

There's been quite a precedent set over what's "loaded" in CA.

I'd venture to say that once you graduate from the academy if you arrest someone in CA for a firearm with an empty chamber and a round taped to the grip your DA won't even file the charge.

I still stand by my point in my first post earlier today that when someone makes a broad statement in a forum about what's loaded or not, they may want to include the words "depending on where you live..."

Bill

Last edited by CA Escapee; 07-04-2012 at 17:56..
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Old 07-04-2012, 17:56   #113
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Sure it can be done. But are you confident enough to bet you life on being able to do it under the extreme pressure of a lethal confrontation? I'll go out on a limb here and say you/me and MOST won't be able to.......
Nope. I've only had to draw one time in my life and that was with a clear threat coming at me in my own drive way over 30 yrs ago. I hope to never be in that situation again but if I am, I would prefer to not have to chamber a round. The nerves didn't rev up until after the incident. The other two threats snuck up from behind and I wasn't paying attention. I wasn't armed and even if I were, it would have been too late to react chambered or not. Better that I wasn't armed in the inattentive state I was in.
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Old 07-06-2012, 13:41   #114
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I carry with my weapon loaded and ready to use if necessary--I can't guarantee that I will have free use of both my hands either if the need to draw my weapon arises...if I didn't have a bullet in the chamber and only had 1 hand to draw my weapon, then I would be hoping that my assailant would simply run off at the sight of my G17--or be polite enough to wait for me to rack the slide!
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Old 07-06-2012, 13:48   #115
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if I didn't have a bullet in the chamber and only had 1 hand to draw my weapon, then I would be hoping that my assailant would simply run off at the sight of my G17--or be polite enough to wait for me to rack the slide!
Or it would depend upon your training and understanding of tactics.
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Old 07-06-2012, 14:11   #116
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Or it would depend upon your training and understanding of tactics.
True I guess, especially if I was able to fend off my assailant without having to draw my weapon. However, if the need arose to draw my weapon, and since (1) I may be defending my wife and sons and (2) I'm just a normal guy with no military, tactical, or intense self-defense training, I prefer to save myself a step in the process of my or my family's personal self defense. Again, I can't be ready for every situation, but I'm comfortable with keeping 1 in the chamber when I'm carrying.

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Old 07-06-2012, 14:13   #117
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The thing to remember when you are out and about is that you must have the mindset that anything that can happen.. could. You just can't take for granted that certain things are not going to take place or that if something goes down, you'll have all of your wits and physical attributes at your disposal. In order to prepare for and conform to this, it just makes sense to remove as many impediments that could be in your way of pulling your gun and pulling the trigger. Your mind is going to have enough to worry about so the less you can clutter things up the better off you're going to be and the better prepared as well.
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Old 07-07-2012, 05:35   #118
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I prefer to save myself a step in the process of my or my family's personal self defense. Again, I can't be ready for every situation, but I'm comfortable with keeping 1 in the chamber when I'm carrying.
Then I say "good for you and so should you carry." You are a Sheepdog for you family.
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:11   #119
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Anyone watch football? Those guys aren't wimps. When they go down, I'm having a hard time imagining them drawing a weapon from concealment under their shirts and effectively using it. I've been tackled twice in my life. Once by a gang of thugs and once being mugged late at night out for a sandwich. Why folks think they'll be able to draw and shoot while under such an attack is beyond me. Your attacker if it ever happens isn't likely to be some limp wristed fruit loop in drag thlapping at you while you hold him back with your left hand so you can draw with your right hand. Unless you're a good size man and can fend off such an attack, you're going down really quick and drawing isn't going to happen. If you are a good size man, chances are a mugger isn't going to pick you anyhow. This perfect imagined scenario of fending off an attacker with one hand while drawing from concealment and shooting with the other is unrealistic. SA and avoidance will save your life. Don't let someone get to the point of tackling you before you give yourself a chance to draw and defend yourself. No stranger is going to get right up on you all of a sudden unless there's some kind of bad intent. Keep your distance. If he insists against your demands to back off, he's a threat. If your SA is as lax as mine was years ago and you get tackled while armed, my condolences to your family.
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:51   #120
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The thing to remember when you are out and about is that you must have the mindset that anything that can happen.. could...
Expect the unexpected...
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