[SouthernBoyVA]

Originally Posted by Gunnut 45/454

Great video, shows the OP is well informed of the applicable laws where he carries! The officer was professional, yet uninformed as to the laws which applied. He now knows what is legal and what is not. I see it as a win,win situation. LEO's are people to and do make mistakes -just like us normal folks. It's our responsibility to know the laws where we carry. Just like it's the LEO's responsibility to know when it legal to detain or arrest! Maybe that Cheif needs to do a public service announcement to inform the PUBLIC that OC is legal and they can be charged with a crime for reporting NON CRIMMINAL ACTIVITY!

Educating the police is a good thing. The problem with the ones who make mistakes is that their mistakes tend to cost citizens time and money.... and hopefully nothing more.

Many Americans have forgotten who owns the government and all of its agencies. The police work for us and are where they are because of us, to enforce the laws we have authorize our representatives to pass (remember, that's how it is suppose to work). Unfortunately many police departments and many Americans have forgotten these simple facts.

I have never had a negative encounter with an officer in my state in the entire time I have carried open and concealed. And I have approached them in cars and on foot with my handgun in full view, been in their precinct buildings while openly carrying, passed them in parking lots, stores, and a host of other places. Never a negative comment or anything out of the ordinary. Guess the ones in my neck of the woods are a lot different than a number of the ones we see and hear of in reports and on YouTube.

[Cavalry Doc]

Originally Posted by Jon_R

Sure you can work around it but I hope we are not cool with the infringement on the 2nd amendment because at least the state allows us some workarounds. That does not sound like a good position on the issue.

I carry in the heat of summer when not working in shorts, un-tucked tshirt, and m-tac M&P or G23 shirt un-tucked though i prefer to tuck my shirt in unless I am doing manual labor.

Hidden is better than out in the open, at least as far as I am concerned.

I've been on patrol many times with crew served weapons openly displayed, but I'm home now. I don't see any added security to openly announcing that I am armed here.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. Do what you want, but if it's an option, I've already given my best recommendation.

[vettely]

By Massad Ayoob, a man worth listening to.
The 10 commandments:

1. If you carry, always carry. The tool does no good if it is sitting at home. You cannot predict when evil will need to be faced down. Commit to your self to always carry.
2. Don’t carry if you are not prepared to use it. Predators sense your willingness or fear. A number of studies show that the criminal facing a prepared and willing defender often departs the situation with no shots fired by the defender. The deterrent factor is the bad guy not knowing who can fight back. Ayoob notes the irony of the person who is prepared to shoot if necessary is less likely to have to. The confidence exhibited by a prepared, aware person puts off the criminal’s attack. Bad guys read body language and can pick out the sheeple (food). Be the sheepdog!
3. Don’t’ let the gun make you reckless. Contrary to what anti self-defense people believe, the gun does not pull the trigger. If anything it is a constant reminder of danger and causes the holder to be more cautious. The “higher standard of care” permit holders are held to, demands an expectation to avoid situations and locations that could escalate into a confrontation. Don’t go looking for trouble, but realize it can appear anytime and anywhere.
4. Get the license. About 48 of the fifty states in the U.S. have some form of permit system. Until ALL states recognize that the rights of self-defense existed BEFORE the government and do away with permits, use the system. Work for good change, study and be aware of the laws in each area as state laws vary. If your permit has recognition or reciprocity with other states, learn and follow the laws. If possible get more than one permit. If you choose to carry, do it legally.
5. Know what you are doing. The key here is “learn the rules of the road.” Check your sources regarding laws, use of force, rules of engagement and get competent instruction and on-going training. Many times in classes or training I witness people who can’t perform under just peer pressure, let alone deadly threat. Learn, do and practice regularly. That is your responsibility.
6. Concealed means concealed. Don’t fall for the first-time gun carrier urge to let everyone know “you got the power!” Depending on where you live, it could be a crime to “show your piece”, while elsewhere, open-carry is allowed. In my state there is no prohibition from carrying openly and loaded with a concealed permit. Yes, you can, but is it prudent? Should you try to “scare the horses” or keep it out of sight? In my area most in law enforcement do NOT know open carry is allowed and practitioners find themselves being stopped and questioned, even harassed by police because someone felt uncomfortable when they saw the gun. Better to keep it hidden and avoid the hassle and avoid losing your advantage during a bad situation. It takes planning, practice and training to do it right. Take the time to do it well.
7. Maximize your firearms familiarity. “The more you work with the chosen firearm, the more reflexively skilled you become in it’s emergency use and safe handling,” says Mr. Ayoob in a recent article, “Use the same action type for practice and competition.” Avail yourself of training and competitions to increase your skill level with your chosen tool of defense. You will not have time in the middle of a confrontation to learn how to run the gun! If ammunition prices are a factor due to budget constraints, consider a smaller caliber version of your self- defense gun. Rim-fire conversions for semi-auto handguns or a .22 version of your revolver, can give you inexpensive practice with skills that transfer to the larger caliber handgun. Dry practice hones a lot of skills without the expense of firing the ammunition. Just remember to do it safely.
8. Understand the fine points. You are responsible to know the details of carry laws in your state. Some states allow signs to be posted and no guns are allowed. Other states have signs posted but they have no force in law. Where I live, signs have no force in law, unless that location is listed as a Federal or State prohibited area. You also could be arrested for an infraction trespass violation in certain places, if you don’t leave when asked…after your gun is seen. Some states allow carry into bars, others it is not allowed. Check a credible source and never assume or go by what someone said they heard when it comes to the finer points of carrying.
9. Carry an adequate firearm. Experts recommend a minimum 38 S&W Special or 380 ACP as a starting point. Carry spare ammunition and consider a second or back-up gun. No, you are not paranoid, you are a conscientious, safety minded individual who has a clear view of reality. Any one else is suffering from a form mental illness called denial, a condition that could be fatal in some circumstances. I’ve heard it said that “one is none, two is one” by Clint Smith who trains at Thunder Ranch, Oregon and Phil Engeldrum, a very experienced expert said, “if you need to carry a gun, you probably need to carry two of them.” If your gun is taken as evidence after a self-defense confrontation, you made need a second, similar firearm so you can protect yourself from the “vengeful cronies of the criminal you were forced to shoot,” according to Ayoob. This also holds for a tool in for repair. Have a back-up or spare just in case.
10. Use common sense. Recognize the power and responsibility the gun represents. It belongs only in the hands of a person responsible enough to know and care about consequences, who cares about the safety of others, and respects human life. With many more Americans able to carry the means of defense, common sense needs a revival. It short, don’t do stupid things! Use you ability to think, plan, practice, avoid, and if needed, defend. Do it correctly and within the law.
While these are called “Commandments,” I think you can see the necessity and common sense distilled here. Review them frequently, just as you would the “other” commandments. It sure makes life a lot less complicated. Be safe and aware. The life you save will be your own or that of someone you love

[Jon_R]

Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc

Hidden is better than out in the open, at least as far as I am concerned.

I've been on patrol many times with crew served weapons openly displayed, but I'm home now. I don't see any added security to openly announcing that I am armed here.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. Do what you want, but if it's an option, I've already given my best recommendation.

I am not saying concealed is not "better" but open should not be a crime. In my state it is. You can be arrested and stand trial for it. You right to bear arms requires you wear that 5-11 tactical vest. Choose not to wear it and the state can take your freedom and your property... BTW I guess that is not an infringement....

I have never open carried outside of the range, on my property, and hunting but against the law... Even for someone with a state issued CWP.... Just silly.

[Rancho_Nirvana]

Boyscout399 is a stud in my book.

The guy is out there asserting his rights, taking the initiative when confronted, and hey, nothings perfect, I can sense he is learning the ropes, tackling things as they come, but in time he will master the art of the deal.

Keep up the good works Boyscout!

[wjv]

Originally Posted by DaneA

TN law states that:


So in the case of the video, if this guy was in TN he would be in violation of the law for not providing his permit/ID and the officer would not need any cause for the stop?

But in his State it:

- Is not required to possess a permit for open carry

- Not required to produce a permit for open carry

- Not required to produce ID on demand when no suspicion of criminal activity can be demonstrated

He was 100% legal, and his refusals were 100% legal in his State.

[Misty02]

Originally Posted by RussP

Suppressed, no, but, BUT, when only the most scintillating events make the news, or YouTube, how is normalcy achieved? What is normal open carry?

Some will say, "It isn't about open carry, it is about showing police/.gov abusing my Rights!" In some cases, yes, that is unfortunately true. Shining the same "normalcy" spotlight on the police, are these incidents on YouTube the norm or the exceptions?

Personally, I believe those videos represent the exception rather the rule. However, as with everything, those that are loudest get noticed most. Since you notice them more, they are appear to be greater in numbers, but that is not often the case.

To me, achieving “normalcy” would be getting to a time where people are more used to it. It doesn’t necessarily mean others will like it or embrace it; just that it would be more accepted as something that is. There are many things we see today that would have alarmed us a few decades ago yet we’ve gotten kind of used to those sights and dismiss them with greater ease. On the other hand, just because it has become “normal” it doesn’t’ mean I like them or have embraced it.

.

[Misty02]

Originally Posted by Kevin108

Here in VA OC is free while CC requires a training course, paperwork, and processing fees. I spent over $100 and a full work day's time to get everything straight and the court still took over the 45 day maximum to get my permit ready. Making CC an option that requires government permission to exercise your rights is a show-stopper for many. Add into that the training costs, time and fees an OC looks like a far more practical method of carry.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

I don’t mind spending the money on the training, that is something that benefits everyone. I can’t say the same about the cost of the license. I’ve spent way more than10 times the cost of the license in training; every single penny was worth spending. The $117 cost for the license itself royally ticked me off. That is of absolutely no benefit to anyone; well, other than to those involved in processing such licenses as it represents their salaries.

.

[Misty02]

Originally Posted by beatcop

There's also an awareness that the police WILL actually use force, whereas an armed citizen may be an unknown...and perhaps make a good firearm donor.

I will concede to that. Additionally, when an officer is involved, the possibility of getting more armed members of their pack on site quickly is one heck of a deterrent. As armed citizens we don’t have that on our side. Every BG knows that there could be more armed officers there in the blink of an eye.

.

[Misty02]

Originally Posted by NDCent

It makes my heart smile to see the gentlemen in the video use such proper decorum when defending his right to OC without question or concern of others.

What did he do in that particular video that would endanger any others? I’m the first to comment that those kinds of videos usually irritate me but other than that, in this particular case, the gentleman didn’t risk his safety, the safety of the public or the safety of the officer. There have been others where that wasn’t the case, but all aren’t the same.

.

[dpadams6]

Originally Posted by vettely

By Massad Ayoob, a man worth listening to.
The 10 commandments:

1. If you carry, always carry. The tool does no good if it is sitting at home. You cannot predict when evil will need to be faced down. Commit to your self to always carry.
2. Don’t carry if you are not prepared to use it. Predators sense your willingness or fear. A number of studies show that the criminal facing a prepared and willing defender often departs the situation with no shots fired by the defender. The deterrent factor is the bad guy not knowing who can fight back. Ayoob notes the irony of the person who is prepared to shoot if necessary is less likely to have to. The confidence exhibited by a prepared, aware person puts off the criminal’s attack. Bad guys read body language and can pick out the sheeple (food). Be the sheepdog!
3. Don’t’ let the gun make you reckless. Contrary to what anti self-defense people believe, the gun does not pull the trigger. If anything it is a constant reminder of danger and causes the holder to be more cautious. The “higher standard of care” permit holders are held to, demands an expectation to avoid situations and locations that could escalate into a confrontation. Don’t go looking for trouble, but realize it can appear anytime and anywhere.
4. Get the license. About 48 of the fifty states in the U.S. have some form of permit system. Until ALL states recognize that the rights of self-defense existed BEFORE the government and do away with permits, use the system. Work for good change, study and be aware of the laws in each area as state laws vary. If your permit has recognition or reciprocity with other states, learn and follow the laws. If possible get more than one permit. If you choose to carry, do it legally.
5. Know what you are doing. The key here is “learn the rules of the road.” Check your sources regarding laws, use of force, rules of engagement and get competent instruction and on-going training. Many times in classes or training I witness people who can’t perform under just peer pressure, let alone deadly threat. Learn, do and practice regularly. That is your responsibility.
6. Concealed means concealed. Don’t fall for the first-time gun carrier urge to let everyone know “you got the power!” Depending on where you live, it could be a crime to “show your piece”, while elsewhere, open-carry is allowed. In my state there is no prohibition from carrying openly and loaded with a concealed permit. Yes, you can, but is it prudent? Should you try to “scare the horses” or keep it out of sight? In my area most in law enforcement do NOT know open carry is allowed and practitioners find themselves being stopped and questioned, even harassed by police because someone felt uncomfortable when they saw the gun. Better to keep it hidden and avoid the hassle and avoid losing your advantage during a bad situation. It takes planning, practice and training to do it right. Take the time to do it well.
7. Maximize your firearms familiarity. “The more you work with the chosen firearm, the more reflexively skilled you become in it’s emergency use and safe handling,” says Mr. Ayoob in a recent article, “Use the same action type for practice and competition.” Avail yourself of training and competitions to increase your skill level with your chosen tool of defense. You will not have time in the middle of a confrontation to learn how to run the gun! If ammunition prices are a factor due to budget constraints, consider a smaller caliber version of your self- defense gun. Rim-fire conversions for semi-auto handguns or a .22 version of your revolver, can give you inexpensive practice with skills that transfer to the larger caliber handgun. Dry practice hones a lot of skills without the expense of firing the ammunition. Just remember to do it safely.
8. Understand the fine points. You are responsible to know the details of carry laws in your state. Some states allow signs to be posted and no guns are allowed. Other states have signs posted but they have no force in law. Where I live, signs have no force in law, unless that location is listed as a Federal or State prohibited area. You also could be arrested for an infraction trespass violation in certain places, if you don’t leave when asked…after your gun is seen. Some states allow carry into bars, others it is not allowed. Check a credible source and never assume or go by what someone said they heard when it comes to the finer points of carrying.
9. Carry an adequate firearm. Experts recommend a minimum 38 S&W Special or 380 ACP as a starting point. Carry spare ammunition and consider a second or back-up gun. No, you are not paranoid, you are a conscientious, safety minded individual who has a clear view of reality. Any one else is suffering from a form mental illness called denial, a condition that could be fatal in some circumstances. I’ve heard it said that “one is none, two is one” by Clint Smith who trains at Thunder Ranch, Oregon and Phil Engeldrum, a very experienced expert said, “if you need to carry a gun, you probably need to carry two of them.” If your gun is taken as evidence after a self-defense confrontation, you made need a second, similar firearm so you can protect yourself from the “vengeful cronies of the criminal you were forced to shoot,” according to Ayoob. This also holds for a tool in for repair. Have a back-up or spare just in case.
10. Use common sense. Recognize the power and responsibility the gun represents. It belongs only in the hands of a person responsible enough to know and care about consequences, who cares about the safety of others, and respects human life. With many more Americans able to carry the means of defense, common sense needs a revival. It short, don’t do stupid things! Use you ability to think, plan, practice, avoid, and if needed, defend. Do it correctly and within the law.
While these are called “Commandments,” I think you can see the necessity and common sense distilled here. Review them frequently, just as you would the “other” commandments. It sure makes life a lot less complicated. Be safe and aware. The life you save will be your own or that of someone you love

Its nice to see Mas agree with me on this one. Hopefully some here will at least consider ccw IF YOU CAN vs. Open carry. For, it will help increase your chances of staying alive someday if that circumstance presents itself.

[Psychman]

I think he handled the situation just fine. A challenge was made, he responded to the challenge and all parties went on their way. No harm. No foul.

I am not a confrontational person so I would have probably just showed him ID and then been on my way. Plus, you never know when you might get that crazy cop who reacts totally inappropriately to a situation. I prefer to be polite when the other guy has a gun too.

[DScottHewitt]

Originally Posted by jpa

Any follow-up after the incident? Did the Sgt on scene say or do anything? Did the OCer complain up the chain of command?

He posted a copy of the letter eh sent the chief here:


http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...nt-in-Portland


I love this line to the chief:

I believe that a lot of progress has been made under your direction to restore proper and legal police work in your city.

One sentence of praise might open his mind to consider the whole letter.......

[DScottHewitt]

Originally Posted by DaneA

TN law states that:


So in the case of the video, if this guy was in TN he would be in violation of the law for not providing his permit/ID and the officer would not need any cause for the stop?

My understanding is that open carry is perfectly legal in Maine without a permit, and that the young gentleman did not need to show his ID.


Valid point, though.

What he did was {GREAT THING} legal where he is. But, it is {BAD THING} illegal many places. Still.

[DScottHewitt]

Originally Posted by beatcop

You will always find some cop to play with and make a video citing case law...if that's what your goal is. I would like to think that any LE response has the goal of addressing a public safety concern, rather than discouraging permissable behavior.

Yeah. He recorded his SEVENTH encounter in FOUR years on his phone. Maybe he was tired of being illegally detained?

And I missed the part where he later shot up a school. So, what concern for public safety did he cause by breaking no laws?

[DScottHewitt]

Originally Posted by steveksux

Does that law refer to permitted concealed carry?

If TN is an open carry state, don't think that would apply.

Randy

IIRC, Tennessee you need a permit for both. Seems to have come up with the whole Kwikrnu thing.....



By dscotthewitt at 2012-06-22

[DScottHewitt]

Originally Posted by HalfH***ard

Great, another one of these videos.

I tend to side with police. I know that if they truly violate my rights and take away my freedom there's some lawyer that'll take my case pro bono.

Why don't these guys ever join the force to try to improve it?

If you voluntarily agree to the stop/detention/search you forfeit your rights.


Keep in mind, though:









I AM NOT A LAWYER. I DO NOT PLAY ONE ON TV. I DO NOT EVEN PLAY ONE ON GLOCKTALK.


Anyone searching for legal advice, the only legal advice I have is:







HIRE A LAWYER!!!!!

[DScottHewitt]

Originally Posted by AA#5

I'm against OC where people don't expect to see OC'ing, but I can't help but find it both entertaining and amusing when a citizen lectures police officers on the law. Especially when they prevail!

You do realize that the Constitution says the right to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED, right?

[Misty02]

Originally Posted by DScottHewitt

Yeah. He recorded his SEVENTH encounter in FOUR years on his phone. Maybe he was tired of being illegally detained?

And I missed the part where he later shot up a school. So, what concern for public safety did he cause by breaking no laws?

If it was the 7th encounter in such a short period, then there was a need to do something about it and try to get it fixed going forward. In this case, he has my first support.

.

[DScottHewitt]

Originally Posted by Misty02

If it was the 7th encounter in such a short period, then there was a need to do something about it and try to get it fixed going forward. In this case, he has my first support.

.

IIRC, that is what someone said in the GNG thread. He has been stopped more than once a year, while doing nothing illegal. This time, he pulled out his cellphone and recorded it.


EDIT TO ADD:


He said it in the Open Carry forum:

I have been stopped by the Portland PD 7 times. The first time I was arrested and the charges were thrown out by the DA. I have not been arrested since. I have recordings of 4 of the encounters. They take place over the last 4 years.

Although, on re-reading it, he may mean the four encounters he recorded all happened in the last four years.

[DScottHewitt]

Originally Posted by vettely

Cover your **** up! If you want to show how tough and bad ass you are by displaying, in public, a loaded firearm on your hip become a LEO and try wearing the uniform awhile.

Concealed carrying works to your benefit for many reasons.
It's interesting that the guys who like to flaunt their machismo via open "look at me" carry are never LEO or from a military specialized unit such as Rangers or SEALs.

I see LEOs around here open carry all the time.


Must be a local thing where you are that none do.......

[NDCent]

Originally Posted by Misty02

What did he do in that particular video that would endanger any others? I’m the first to comment that those kinds of videos usually irritate me but other than that, in this particular case, the gentleman didn’t risk his safety, the safety of the public or the safety of the officer. There have been others where that wasn’t the case, but all aren’t the same.

.

I didn't mention him endangering anyone, including himself.

Originally Posted by Misty02

If it was the 7th encounter in such a short period, then there was a need to do something about it and try to get it fixed going forward. In this case, he has my first support.

.

I agree, and he has every right to carry openly, and make all the videos he wishes, and not have his rights infringed by all the JBT's of the world, but...

IMO, whether his rights being trampled on were actually his focus, or to educate the local law enforcement, his letter or a visit to the Chief would have probably given quicker results before his 8th police encounter, rather than after. Instead it seem to me as if he was trolling the streets to make You Tube videos.

You are entitled to your opinion on the subject, or the video, as am I. I simply feel his IN YOUR FACE attitude is similar to ANY in your face attitude on ANY subject. It many times drives people farther away from your way of thinking, or point of view, instead of drawing them closer. However, he has the right to shout case law from the mountain tops if he desires.

[SCmasterblaster]

until I have the money to apply for a NH CCW. My NH grocery store doesn't mind.

[Kevin108]

Well the nice thing about living in Virginia is that you owe no one any reason or explanations for OC'ing. Since this is the mode that is the "normal" mode of carry here (read that as the standard or default mode), no explanation is required.

I will offer that my reasons are good and valid for me, and that is really all that matters, and I will tell you what they are. I have osteoarthritis in both of my knees (getting a total knee replacement in October) and because of this condition, I am no longer able to run from a situation or fight as I was once capable of doing. My visible sidearm acts as a warning to those who may be of a mind to do me evil that perhaps they would be better served to pick another victim. Am I right about this? I don't know, but my position is to err on the side of what I believe to be my best interests.

Again, I fully and completely support both modes of carry and would hope the avid CC'ers would return the favor.

+1 on everything (I too have arthritis. Although I'm not needing joint replacement, I have suffered with it for 20 years now and like most have good days and bad days. )

[wjv]

When Dr. Martin Luther King staged protests, was he just "trolling the streets"?

I see NO difference in this person being stopped and questioned for no reason, as when the police stop a black person who is out driving their car because they are black. . . (Google: driving while black).

Sometime someone just needs to stand up and say "Enough of this S***"!