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Old 06-14-2012, 12:24   #21
oldman11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emtjr928 View Post
Because they are! Drawing the trigger to the rear completes the setting of the striker spring before it releases the striker.

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You're absolutely right! Finally someone besides me has seen a skeleton model in action. I also saw a video on it this year.
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Old 06-14-2012, 12:57   #22
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Originally Posted by emtjr928 View Post
Because they are! Drawing the trigger to the rear completes the setting of the striker spring before it releases the striker.

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Unlike the SAO M&P, where the striker is 100% cocked and ready to fire.
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Old 06-14-2012, 12:57   #23
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The BATF classifies the GLOCK as DAO because it completes the cocking of the firing pin (loading of the striker) and then releases it (double action). The gun is incapable of single action fire, therefore, the Glock is double action only (DAO).

So if the question remains, why do people call a Glock double action, your answer is above.

If you want to believe it's not double action because it doesn't cock without racking the slide, or the pressing of the trigger doesn't do all of the cocking, or because it doesn't have second strike capability that's your choice.

However, the one thing Glock is certainly not is single action. Single Action by definition does only one single task; releases the hammer/striker. If ANY cocking occurs with the trigger press it is NOT single Action.
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Old 06-14-2012, 12:58   #24
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I thought this was more of an ATF thing. When Glocks were first introduced, ATF had only two designations: Single Action (cowboy guns, 1911s) or Double Action (first pull of the trigger cocks and fires gun, then movement of slide cocks hammer/striker and trigger releases it). Then came Glocks and it was classified as DA Only.
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Old 06-14-2012, 14:05   #25
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SA is something totally different.
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Old 06-14-2012, 15:36   #26
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Originally Posted by GasTurbine View Post
I know they categorize it that way because of it longer pull, but the fact is, (besides going thru all the safeties) it preforms just one action...releasing the striker, thus, technically making it an SA gun.

I know that Armslist has "Striker fired" added to their "Action types"...I hope this catches on.
I would think because it pulls the striker back first, then releases it.
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Old 06-14-2012, 15:39   #27
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M&p would be single action because its fully cocked and pulling the triggers rotates the sear, releasing the srtiker. Terrible design, IMHO
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Old 06-14-2012, 17:39   #28
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The trigger on my G26 feels like a single action trigger once the slack is taken up. It's not like a DAO at all as far as I'm concerned. I know that technically it's not an SAO, just saying it feels like one.
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Old 06-15-2012, 07:04   #29
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Gentlemen, the thing that defines the action designation of a handgun is what the trigger's tasks are... what the trigger does to fire the gun. Nothing else. Whether or not the gun uses a striker or a hammer or a combination thereof, makes no difference. It is what the trigger does that defines the action type description. If you keep that in mind, you won't have any problem understanding and referring to the action of a given design.
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Old 06-15-2012, 07:10   #30
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Originally Posted by mrsurfboard View Post
Unlike the SAO M&P, where the striker is 100% cocked and ready to fire.
Yes, this is technically true. In reality the M&P design, and that of the Springfield XD series, is a SAO, but S&W classes their M&P line as DAO pistols. Perhaps because there is no such designation of SAO (this is a guess on my part).
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Old 06-15-2012, 07:15   #31
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Originally Posted by dpadams6 View Post
M&p would be single action because its fully cocked and pulling the triggers rotates the sear, releasing the srtiker. Terrible design, IMHO
I think it is a good design because it can result in a lighter trigger (think competition and improved accuracy) and a more crisp letoff. The Apex Tactical hard sear returns an almost 1911-like break. Of course, you still have pre-travel but that is necessary in order for the trigger bar cam to disengage the striker block safety... which can also be improved with Apex parts.
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Old 06-15-2012, 08:18   #32
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Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
I think if is a good design because if can result in a lighter trigger (think competition and improved accuracy) and a more crisp letoff. The Apex Tactical hard sear returns an almost 1911-like break. Of course, you still have pre-travel but that is necessary in order for the trigger bar cam to disengage the striker block safety... which can also be improved with Apex parts.
I have heard good things about the apex. I never really liked the stock sear in not knowing or feeling the reset like a glock. Does the the apex allow knowing/feeling the reset better? I just dont like how the sear kinda "teeters" back/forth on a pin...

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Old 06-15-2012, 08:41   #33
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Action Type refers to what occurs when you pull the trigger.

With a single action firearm (revolver or pistol), the trigger simply releases the hammer or striker. With a double action firearm, the trigger cocks AND releases the hammer or striker. DAO simply refers to a subset of double action in which manual cocking of the hammer is not possible so each trigger pull results in cocking and releasing.

With a Glock and a S&W M&P, the striker is not fully cocked until the trigger is fully pressed, hence both these pistols are double action (only). With an XDm, the striker is fully cocked and trigger press simply releases the striker, making it single action.
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Old 06-15-2012, 09:01   #34
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Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
Nope. Example is the M&P Smith and Wesson. S&W defines the M&P as a DAO pistol but in reality, the striker is held in a fully cocking position prior to release. The trigger only does one thing; it releases the striker via the sear. It does not cock the striker any more than it is already. I believe the XD series operates this same way.
I absolutely agree, I believe I did ask DannyR in his blog about it ( I cannot find the post right now...) but IMHO we should look at actions in two ways: mechanical properties and user interface... By user interface Glock is SA gun, just as 1911, as much as strange this would look in initially, but if you think, in both mechanics, if you have misfire for any reason, you should operate the slide in order to chamber fresh round...
For me, in regard of the explanations in the previous two posts above, DAO is a self loading gun that will operate the striker with every pull of the trigger lever, regardless of what is the slide doing, same as P250 or for example "double strike capability" of some Taurus models...
BTW, Glock does designates his guns as "DAO" in some of their manuals, especially where they have charts with the models.
In regard of the two other pistols mentioned - the M&P and XD, I read somewhere that the trigger was designed intentionally to mimic long DA pull, even the two guns have the strikers fully cocked by the cycling of the slide...
Mr. Metkalf had a article in one of the S&W magazines, when those models came up, some 3-4 years ago if I'm not mistaking, where he was explaining the way M&P partially cocks the striker, but in the same time, there was a video by the American Gunsmith Association I believe, where you can see that the sear only releases the striker, it is not cocking it additionally... I wrote Mr. Metkalf's an e-mail, asking him to explain why the difference between his article and the video, my only intent was to learn something possibly, unfortunately I never had answer...
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Old 06-15-2012, 13:18   #35
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Originally Posted by dpadams6 View Post
I have heard good things about the apex. I never really liked the stock sear in not knowing or feeling the reset like a glock. Does the the apex allow knowing/feeling the reset better? I just dont like how the sear kinda "teeters" back/forth on a pin...
Yes, there are several kits or individual parts that Apex offers that can improve the reset. I never seem to have a problem with my M&P 9 Pro because I have fired it enough that it is just a natural thing for me where the reset occurs.

What accounts for the more audible and crisp feel of the Glock reset is the connector. The M&P has no such thing.
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Old 06-15-2012, 13:20   #36
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Originally Posted by ChicagoZman View Post
Action Type refers to what occurs when you pull the trigger.

With a single action firearm (revolver or pistol), the trigger simply releases the hammer or striker. With a double action firearm, the trigger cocks AND releases the hammer or striker. DAO simply refers to a subset of double action in which manual cocking of the hammer is not possible so each trigger pull results in cocking and releasing.

With a Glock and a S&W M&P, the striker is not fully cocked until the trigger is fully pressed, hence both these pistols are double action (only). With an XDm, the striker is fully cocked and trigger press simply releases the striker, making it single action.
True in regards to the Glock design, false for the M&P as was previously noted. With the M&P, the trigger bar does not complete the cocking of the striker because the striker is held in a fully cocked condition by the sear.
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Old 06-15-2012, 13:22   #37
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Originally Posted by .38 super View Post
I absolutely agree, I believe I did ask DannyR in his blog about it ( I cannot find the post right now...) but IMHO we should look at actions in two ways: mechanical properties and user interface... By user interface Glock is SA gun, just as 1911, as much as strange this would look in initially, but if you think, in both mechanics, if you have misfire for any reason, you should operate the slide in order to chamber fresh round...
For me, in regard of the explanations in the previous two posts above, DAO is a self loading gun that will operate the striker with every pull of the trigger lever, regardless of what is the slide doing, same as P250 or for example "double strike capability" of some Taurus models...
BTW, Glock does designates his guns as "DAO" in some of their manuals, especially where they have charts with the models.
In regard of the two other pistols mentioned - the M&P and XD, I read somewhere that the trigger was designed intentionally to mimic long DA pull, even the two guns have the strikers fully cocked by the cycling of the slide...
Mr. Metkalf had a article in one of the S&W magazines, when those models came up, some 3-4 years ago if I'm not mistaking, where he was explaining the way M&P partially cocks the striker, but in the same time, there was a video by the American Gunsmith Association I believe, where you can see that the sear only releases the striker, it is not cocking it additionally... I wrote Mr. Metkalf's an e-mail, asking him to explain why the difference between his article and the video, my only intent was to learn something possibly, unfortunately I never had answer...
With DAO pistols, there are two flavors. Those which do not have a second strike capability and those which do. Most don't and the Glock is one example. The Kel-Tec P11 is a DAO design and does have second strike capability, as does the Ruger LCP.
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Old 06-15-2012, 18:33   #38
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True in regards to the Glock design, false for the M&P as was previously noted. With the M&P, the trigger bar does not complete the cocking of the striker because the striker is held in a fully cocked condition by the sear.
In the M&P, the striker is moved ever so slightly to the rear as the trigger in pressed and the sear rotates. Even if only a negligible amount (1%, 2%, 3%?) that movement makes it a double action as the trigger press completes the cocking process.
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Old 06-16-2012, 05:41   #39
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Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
True in regards to the Glock design, false for the M&P as was previously noted. With the M&P, the trigger bar does not complete the cocking of the striker because the striker is held in a fully cocked condition by the sear.
True. I went to m&p armorer school. It is full cocked. Pulling trigger pivots the sear /bar, releasing the striker (that's already cocked). Its weird how a lot of people think different about this. Not sure why. Its pretty basic.

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Old 06-16-2012, 06:14   #40
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True. I went to m&p armorer school. It is full cocked. Pulling trigger pivots the sear /bar, releasing the striker (that's already cocked). Its weird how a lot of people think different about this. Not sure why. Its pretty basic.
Yes it is. A little while back I got into a "firm" discussion (not nasty) with a gentleman on a website who believed that the sear moved the striker rearward one or two millimeters before releasing it. So I grabbed my M&P 9 Pro and a high intensity flashlight to closely examine both the sear and the striker lug and the fellow was WAY off base. If there is any movement at all, it would be in the tens of thousandths of an inch; nowhere near one or two millimeters.

When one uses the term DAO, one has to know what that means and why the term was applied to a given design. In my opinion, the two best examples of a DAO pistol would be the Kahr design (striker fired with no second strike capability) and the Kel-Tec P11 (hammer fired with second strike capability).
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