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Old 06-09-2012, 13:16   #26
txgunguy
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Would not give it a second thought, you answered your own question. If it felt different, it was. If it felt under charged, it was. It happens!

If you have a good reliable scale, weigh a magazine full, and shoot them. If everything runs as supposed to, keep weighing until you find one that is 5+ grains lighter than the others. Then shoot the lighter ones and see if they run. From that point on, weigh each and every round in a box, and mark the lighter weighing ones with a black felt tip on the primer. Make sure to shoot them at the range, so if there is a mishap again, you'll know the culprit. This should instill the confidence back in your G20, and your choice of ammo.
I didn't think of that. What brand of scale would you recommend? I don't have a good one right now.

TDC20,
All the parts are brand new and look good.

dm1906,
Yes I had one FTE in 125 rounds. I haven't got a chance to go shoot again yet.

ETA: The extractor spring is nice and tight so I doubt there is anything wrong there.
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Old 06-09-2012, 13:57   #27
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I'd say shoot it, shoot it, shoot it......and then shoot it some more. My brand new Glock 20 SF had fte when it was brand new. Didn't matter if it was factory ammo, my re-loads, or nickee10mm's handloads. I learned to eject the stuck round, give the gun a good cussin' and shoot it some more. And after awhile, it was shooting 100% perfect. No ftf or fte...I'm with etherealkiller. Sometimes a new Glock (or any new gun) needs more break-in then others. I wouldn't spend a penny on it until you're sure it's never going to be right. lol
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Old 06-09-2012, 14:39   #28
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I didn't think of that. What brand of scale would you recommend? I don't have a good one right now.

TDC20,
All the parts are brand new and look good.

dm1906,
Yes I had one FTE in 125 rounds. I haven't got a chance to go shoot again yet.

ETA: The extractor spring is nice and tight so I doubt there is anything wrong there.
Weighing of loaded cartridges is never a reliable method of determining component capacities by an end user. Primary OEM suppliers (Remington, Winchester, Federal, etc.) do, but they maintain their standards for the components, manufacture the components, and assemble the components. Secondary manufacturers (Underwood, BB, DT, etc.) only assemble components sourced elsewhere, essentially using retail components available to end users. The variations within individual components, and the variation of assembled cartridges can span several grains. For example, I weighed 50 rounds (within the last couple hours, on a reliable, calibrated scale) of Remington .380 Auto factory rounds. Not target rounds, but common full power HP high dollar rounds. While most were within the upper end of 1 grain, the extreme spread was over 3 grains, with one right at 4 grains. This is a small round, with a very light bullet, small case, and light powder charge, compared to the 10mm. Weigh 10, and multiply the ES by 10. Using this as a standard, you could theorize that the possible weight difference of these 10 rounds (still using the .380 for reference), is more than a complete powder charge of a typical 10mm. Add to that, unless you disassemble every round and weigh each component individually, you have no way of knowing which component is over/under weight, or what an ideal round should weigh. Increasing your sample count (number of rounds) improves the accuracy of an average, but also increases the number of variables. In the end, weighing complete cartridges is not a reliable method of determining anything, other than if you started with ten, and ended with ten, you didn't lose any.

Ultimately at this time, you only know you had one FTE, and nothing more. Any weapon and ammo combination can experience unexplained failures, for any of a hundred reasons. Unless you discover an obvious cause, concerning yourself about 1 failure in 125, or even 4-5 in 1,000, don't lose sleep over it. Glock won't, and I'm sure Underwood won't. Underwood will probably want to compensate you in some way, because that's how they operate. If you complain to Glock, they'll tell you to return the pistol to them for testing. After a few months, they'll send it back and tell you nothing is wrong. That's the way they operate. Unless you develop a trend, there's nothing to worry about. Keep in mind, the cartridge that failed you is intended to perform at an extreme of a pistol design. If failures are to happen, that's where it will be.

All that said, if you feel concerned or have lost confidence in your equipment, for any reason, go full tilt and do what you have to do to set your mind at ease. You may have to rely on the equipment to protect yourself or loved ones from harm, and you don't need THAT zombie following you. There are enough of the other zombies to deal with....
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Old 06-09-2012, 15:56   #29
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DM1906,

I appreciate the advice. I haven't lost confidence in the weapon yet as it was during the first 20 rounds, and i fired the next 110 trouble free, with different magazines.

I still feel as though a heavier spring would benefit me. Using a 17# spring for a 115gr 9mm, and the same spring for hot 10mm, doesn't seem logical. If for nothing else to not chase my brass way down the range.
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Old 06-09-2012, 16:21   #30
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DM1906,

I appreciate the advice. I haven't lost confidence in the weapon yet as it was during the first 20 rounds, and i fired the next 110 trouble free, with different magazines.

I still feel as though a heavier spring would benefit me. Using a 17# spring for a 115gr 9mm, and the same spring for hot 10mm, doesn't seem logical. If for nothing else to not chase my brass way down the range.
Don't pay any attention to the spring weights, model to model. The 9mm is a small frame, with a significantly lesser mass slide and barrel, with a very different type of recoil, compared to the 10mm. Unless you are doing something very different than the engineers, don't try to out-engineer them.

A fully OEM pistol should have managed the rounds you put through them. Changing the spring may or may not necessarily be a bad idea, but not for the reason you state now. I suggest feeding the thing what it likes, for now. Get outside the box after you have some (hundreds/thousands) rounds through it, and upgrade accordingly. Patience has it's rewards. Get to know it, before you change it. You may miss something important if you don't. If the pistol has a problem, and you start changing things, you may cover the problem until it becomes a real problem. No good things come from that.
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Old 06-09-2012, 17:33   #31
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Don't pay any attention to the spring weights, model to model. The 9mm is a small frame, with a significantly lesser mass slide and barrel, with a very different type of recoil, compared to the 10mm. Unless you are doing something very different than the engineers, don't try to out-engineer them.

A fully OEM pistol should have managed the rounds you put through them. Changing the spring may or may not necessarily be a bad idea, but not for the reason you state now. I suggest feeding the thing what it likes, for now. Get outside the box after you have some (hundreds/thousands) rounds through it, and upgrade accordingly. Patience has it's rewards. Get to know it, before you change it. You may miss something important if you don't. If the pistol has a problem, and you start changing things, you may cover the problem until it becomes a real problem. No good things come from that.
Thats true. If there is an issue, and it wasn't a bad round, I don't want to cover it up.

One thing I noticed with the OEM spring, is when I field strip the gun, it is really loose against the barrel lug. I'm not new to glocks so I know how it moves during re assembly.

I dont own any other large frame glocks so I wonder, is this normal for the large frames? I mean the spring requires 0 effort to be removed. It's practically falling out.
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Old 06-09-2012, 17:45   #32
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Thats true. If there is an issue, and it wasn't a bad round, I don't want to cover it up.

One thing I noticed with the OEM spring, is when I field strip the gun, it is really loose against the barrel lug. I'm not new to glocks so I know how it moves during re assembly.

I dont own any other large frame glocks so I wonder, is this normal for the large frames? I mean the spring requires 0 effort to be removed. It's practically falling out.
It's common with all Glocks. And a upgraded RSA won't change it over all.
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Old 06-09-2012, 20:47   #33
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Spring weights are rather trivial, considering the weight differences in slides. Throwing of brass further than findable, on the other hand, can be controlled with heavier spring weights.

As far as scales go, any of the inexpensive digitals will do. Just look for discrepancies between weights. Then narrow down to regain confidence in your ammo and firearm. That's why I said look for 5 grain differences, if in fact you are finding that range of discrepancy, confidence being regained will be a must. I think your experience is rare, but like I said, happens. If you find only 5 grains of variance, and they run, confidence will be gained, which is, what you are looking for. If 10 grain variance is found, and they don't run, you know what to look out for!!!!
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Old 06-09-2012, 21:17   #34
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Thats very strange. Everything I've read, 10mm guys swear by using heavier recoil springs.
Not me.

I have a 22# spring and steel guide rod for my G20, but it is not 100% reliable with hot loads. It runs good with medium to medium warm loads, but it is only about 90-95% reliable with hot loads. The stock RSA is 100%, and felt recoil is lighter for most loads. They cost about $7, and I replace them after every 3000 rounds.

The only time my G20 had failures with the stock RSA, is when I had literally worn out my ejector. Another $7 part, and I am again 100% function.
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Old 06-09-2012, 21:22   #35
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Don't pay any attention to the spring weights, model to model. The 9mm is a small frame, with a significantly lesser mass slide and barrel, with a very different type of recoil, compared to the 10mm. Unless you are doing something very different than the engineers, don't try to out-engineer them.

A fully OEM pistol should have managed the rounds you put through them. Changing the spring may or may not necessarily be a bad idea, but not for the reason you state now. I suggest feeding the thing what it likes, for now. Get outside the box after you have some (hundreds/thousands) rounds through it, and upgrade accordingly. Patience has it's rewards. Get to know it, before you change it. You may miss something important if you don't. If the pistol has a problem, and you start changing things, you may cover the problem until it becomes a real problem. No good things come from that.
Totally agree 100% on both paragraphs.

Shoot at least a thousand rounds through it and then see if there is a need to start changing parts.
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Old 06-09-2012, 21:32   #36
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Spring weights are rather trivial, considering the weight differences in slides. Throwing of brass further than findable, on the other hand, can be controlled with heavier spring weights.

As far as scales go, any of the inexpensive digitals will do. Just look for discrepancies between weights. Then narrow down to regain confidence in your ammo and firearm. That's why I said look for 5 grain differences, if in fact you are finding that range of discrepancy, confidence being regained will be a must. I think your experience is rare, but like I said, happens. If you find only 5 grains of variance, and they run, confidence will be gained, which is, what you are looking for. If 10 grain variance is found, and they don't run, you know what to look out for!!!!
I agree with this statement. A 5 grain difference with a single round is reason for concern. Your original suggestion was to weigh a full magazine. That would suggest a possible .5 grain difference per round (average, with a 10 round mag, or .3 with a 15), which is well within any measure of tolerance, and nearly impossible to isolate. We shouldn't have to concern ourselves with such menial details with commercially produced ammo. It's just so rare, it isn't a factor. If it becomes a regular issue, dump the ammo and move on to another brand. Keep it simple.
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Old 06-09-2012, 21:44   #37
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I agree with this statement. A 5 grain difference with a single round is reason for concern. Your original suggestion was to weigh a full magazine. That would suggest a possible .5 grain difference per round (average, with a 10 round mag, or .3 with a 15), which is well within any measure of tolerance, and nearly impossible to isolate. We shouldn't have to concern ourselves with such menial details with commercially produced ammo. It's just so rare, it isn't a factor. If it becomes a regular issue, dump the ammo and move on to another brand. Keep it simple.
I hope it isn't an issue with the ammo, as I really liked underwood. They were all very clean and well made. None of the other rounds from them did it, which makes me more inclined to chalk it up as a fluke.
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Old 06-09-2012, 21:54   #38
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I hope it isn't an issue with the ammo, as I really liked underwood. They were all very clean and well made. None of the other rounds from them did it, which makes me more inclined to chalk it up as a fluke.
It isn't the ammo. Every mfg can have a bad one. It was a generalized statement. Underwood is good stuff, if you don't roll your own. Shoot some more. If it doesn't happen again, it was a fluke. If it happens again from the same lot of bullets, it was still a fluke. Underwood will replace them. Don't worry about it unless it repeats with other rounds, or under other conditions. One FTE in 125 rounds is NOT anything to be concerned about. There are just too many variables to consider.
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Old 06-09-2012, 22:07   #39
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It isn't the ammo. Every mfg can have a bad one. It was a generalized statement. Underwood is good stuff, if you don't roll your own. Shoot some more. If it doesn't happen again, it was a fluke. If it happens again from the same lot of bullets, it was still a fluke. Underwood will replace them. Don't worry about it unless it repeats with other rounds, or under other conditions. One FTE in 125 rounds is NOT anything to be concerned about. There are just too many variables to consider.
I contacted them to see if anyone else had reported this issue with this load. Kevin, at underwood, stated they hadn't had any other reports. He then offered me $10 off my next order. I was not asking for anything but he extended that offer. I thought that was generous but was really just seeing if they had any known issues with that lot, just to rule that possibility out.

I don't load my own yet so their ammo is my first choice.
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Old 06-09-2012, 22:13   #40
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I contacted them to see if anyone else had reported this issue with this load. Kevin, at underwood, stated they hadn't had any other reports. He then offered me $10 off my next order. I was not asking for anything but he extended that offer. I thought that was generous but was really just seeing if they had any known issues with that lot, just to rule that possibility out.

I don't load my own yet so their ammo is my first choice.
Good deal. I figured they'd take care of you.

When you're ready to start doing your own, be very careful the advice you take. There's a LOT more bad advice out there than good. A lot of well-meaning guys with way better luck then me. It's a science, and you MUST learn it that way. If not, you'll rely on your luck.
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Old 06-10-2012, 14:46   #41
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Such FTE issue happened several times w. my own hot loads (1360fps/180gr) and when chamber was already quite dirty. But that spent case didn't stuck in chamber, it was easy to pull it out with knife blade few seconds later.
Therefore my conclusion was: slide moved back too quick, it traveled back when gas pressure was still pushing brass to the chamber walls and extractor jumped over the edge of brass. There was some more friction too because chamber walls were dirty.
Happened only in aftermarket IGB barrel w. full chamber support and less chamber space compared to oem barrel.
Now this IGB barrel has at least 3000 round through and it does not happen again. No, I didn't polish the chamber but a lot of cleaning has similar effect IMO.
I carry G20 in woods w. IGB barrel cause I don't dare to shoot my hottest loads in oem barrel. But every time before going to bushes I clean shiny the barrel/chamber and lubricate my gun as well just to be 200% sure it works flawlessly if my life depends on it.
On the other side I shoot all factory G17 at IPSC/Stock Division matches and clean it only twice a year. Not because I have to, it's just to show some love and appreciation to this tool working reliably and flawlessly through the shooting season 365 days a year.
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Old 06-10-2012, 15:29   #42
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Such FTE issue happened several times w. my own hot loads (1360fps/180gr) and when chamber was already quite dirty. But that spent case didn't stuck in chamber, it was easy to pull it out with knife blade few seconds later.
Therefore my conclusion was: slide moved back too quick, it traveled back when gas pressure was still pushing brass to the chamber walls and extractor jumped over the edge of brass. There was some more friction too because chamber walls were dirty.
Happened only in aftermarket IGB barrel w. full chamber support and less chamber space compared to oem barrel.
Now this IGB barrel has at least 3000 round through and it does not happen again. No, I didn't polish the chamber but a lot of cleaning has similar effect IMO.
I carry G20 in woods w. IGB barrel cause I don't dare to shoot my hottest loads in oem barrel. But every time before going to bushes I clean shiny the barrel/chamber and lubricate my gun as well just to be 200% sure it works flawlessly if my life depends on it.
On the other side I shoot all factory G17 at IPSC/Stock Division matches and clean it only twice a year. Not because I have to, it's just to show some love and appreciation to this tool working reliably and flawlessly through the shooting season 365 days a year.
Interesting. My chamber was not dirty at all. This case wasn't stuck to the chamber walls at all. The more I evaluate this FTE it really makes no sense.

To recap for anyone just joining in here goes.

I had 5 rounds in the magazine, chambered a round and proceeded to fire. The round sounded different than the other I had shot. I went to pull the trigger again and got a click. At this point I thought hang fire or bad primer. I kept the gun pointed down range and waited about 30 secounds. I ejected the magazine which had 4 rounds in it. I then slowly opened the slide, and the empty case ejected normally.

Now, I didn't get another round trying to feed behind it, which makes me think the slide didn't fully cycle, BUT it cycled just far enough to reset the trigger.

The brass showed no signs of overpressure on it. It looked like the rest.

There is a brass mark on the FRONT of the extractor. The only way that could have got there, was if the extractor slipped off and slammed back on the case in the chamber. The extractor was on the rim of the case like normal. The gun is brand new and I never load a round in the chamber and let the slide slam on it.

I am thankful for all the help so far guys. You have eased my anxiety while waiting to shoot it again lol
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Old 06-14-2012, 13:48   #43
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Ok guys I took out out again today.

Shot 80 rounds of 180gr tmj without issue.

Shot 30 165gr gold dots with no issue.

when I switched to the 165gr tmj, I had 3 failure to eject out of 50 rounds. Right now I'm thinking my gun does not like the 165gr bullet. I'm frustrated because I've never had this issue with any of my glocks before. It's starting to get expensive testing this weapon to run reliably.
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Old 06-14-2012, 14:19   #44
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Ok guys I took out out again today.

Shot 80 rounds of 180gr tmj without issue.

Shot 30 165gr gold dots with no issue.

when I switched to the 165gr tmj, I had 3 failure to eject out of 50 rounds. Right now I'm thinking my gun does not like the 165gr bullet. I'm frustrated because I've never had this issue with any of my glocks before. It's starting to get expensive testing this weapon to run reliably.
Very strange.

Did the 165's exhibit any other difference, particularly light or harsh recoil, etc.?
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Old 06-14-2012, 14:50   #45
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Ok guys I took out out again today.

Shot 80 rounds of 180gr tmj without issue.

Shot 30 165gr gold dots with no issue.

when I switched to the 165gr tmj, I had 3 failure to eject out of 50 rounds. Right now I'm thinking my gun does not like the 165gr bullet. I'm frustrated because I've never had this issue with any of my glocks before. It's starting to get expensive testing this weapon to run reliably.
What brand and advertised claim for these 165's? Try another brand, or different recipe if these are handloads. Many firearms have a dislike for specific rounds. Those who say "not mine, it shoots everything", haven't shot them all.
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Old 06-14-2012, 15:55   #46
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What brand and advertised claim for these 165's? Try another brand, or different recipe if these are handloads. Many firearms have a dislike for specific rounds. Those who say "not mine, it shoots everything", haven't shot them all.
Underwood Ammo. I don't reload so they are my only option right now for full power 10mm ammo. They are advertising 1400fps and I believe it. It functions fine on the Federal 180gr FMJ but it's loaded to almost the exact same velocity as 40. I'm not going to pay a premium for essentially 40 ammo.

I'll post some picture of the FTEjects. They only happened with the 165gr ammunition, which sucks because I wanted to use 165gr for HD. With an FTE such as these, aren't they usually induced by the slide moving too fast, not allowing the spent casing to eject? Everything on the gun is still stock right now. I haven't tinkered with the recoil spring.

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Old 06-14-2012, 17:47   #47
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that's very strange.... it could be a slide issue, but i REALLY REALLY doubt it..... i'd suspect the barrel placement before the spring being the issue..... i assume you've cleaned it several times and re-assembled many times also? make sure the round is fully seating with every shot. if it all still looks ok, i'd get ahold of a Glock dealer in your area and take it to them for warranty investigation.
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Old 06-14-2012, 17:56   #48
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that's very strange.... it could be a slide issue, but i REALLY REALLY doubt it..... i'd suspect the barrel placement before the spring being the issue..... i assume you've cleaned it several times and re-assembled many times also? make sure the round is fully seating with every shot. if it all still looks ok, i'd get ahold of a Glock dealer in your area and take it to them for warranty investigation.
What do you mean barrel placement? I have cleaned it 3 times now very thoroughly. I'm pretty anal about my guns being clean.
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Old 06-14-2012, 18:02   #49
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the barrel could be "off" by a little, left, right, up or down, and affect the way the ejector grabs the rim of the shell, but it's only with 165grain shells so that's proly not it.... if i was in your shoes and 180's worked well i'd stick with those, or get ahold of Glock they probably be allot more useful then all of us guessing at it.....
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Old 06-14-2012, 18:07   #50
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the barrel could be "off" by a little, left, right, up or down, and affect the way the ejector grabs the rim of the shell, but it's only with 165grain shells so that's proly not it.... if i was in your shoes and 180's worked well i'd stick with those, or get ahold of Glock they probably be allot more useful then all of us guessing at it.....
I'm leaning towards that because I don't want to be limited to a certain bullet weight. I really can't afford to keep running 100 rounds of 10mm at a time through it to see if the issue will go away. I'm just really frustrated right now.
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42