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Old 06-09-2012, 08:49   #21
Ethereal Killer
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Originally Posted by txgunguy View Post
Killer,
I understand breaking in a new gun, but I've never had to break in a glock before. I'm going to get a heavier recoil spring and go to the range again next week. If it doesn't happen again, I'm going to attribute it to a bad round.
newer glocks and in fact MOST new guns are made with different manufacturing processes that make them modular. this modularity means that they all undergo some break-in during the first few rounds. You may not have thought you were breaking in a glock before but you were in fact doing so just by shooting. just because you didnt have issues didnt mean it wasnt happening.

I seriously doubt there is anything wrong with your gun, just clena it up and lube it then go back to shooting it. this is not a full fledged internet emergency... you had a dud.

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Old 06-09-2012, 09:11   #22
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Originally Posted by txgunguy View Post
I'm thinking the round may not have had a full charge. It did not have the recoil the other rounds did. The extractor had a grip on the case, so I think I'm leaning toward a bad charge.
Would not give it a second thought, you answered your own question. If it felt different, it was. If it felt under charged, it was. It happens!

If you have a good reliable scale, weigh a magazine full, and shoot them. If everything runs as supposed to, keep weighing until you find one that is 5+ grains lighter than the others. Then shoot the lighter ones and see if they run. From that point on, weigh each and every round in a box, and mark the lighter weighing ones with a black felt tip on the primer. Make sure to shoot them at the range, so if there is a mishap again, you'll know the culprit. This should instill the confidence back in your G20, and your choice of ammo.
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Old 06-09-2012, 11:25   #23
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Originally Posted by txgunguy View Post
I did some digging and a member on the smith & wesson forum had this same thing happen with Underwood ammo. The members there seem to think the extractor slipped off the case due to the early unlocking of the gun. He explained it as the case has not finished expanding and is stuck to the chamber wall while the slide begins to move back.

I really think this is exactly what happened because I have a perfect brass marking on the OUTSIDE of the extractor. The only way that would have got there was if it came off the round because I never drop a round in the chamber.

So the case was in the chamber, the extractor slipped off, no new round was chambered, and the extractor was slammed back onto the original case in the chamber.

The guy on the S&W forum said he got a heavier recoil spring and it fixed his issues. I planned to do this anyway. It doesn't make sense to me to have the same recoil spring weight for a 9mm and full power 10mm. Evidently this can happen with hot 10mm ammo, which Underwood definitely is.
I think you may be correct on the extractor slipping over the brass rim. We were just discussing this phenomenon over on the 10mm reloading forum. Check out the last 8-10 posts on this thread:
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1404729

I shoot a Wolff uncaptured 22# spring and rod guide in my G20 (you can get them as a set for under $30) with everything including my .40 S&W conversion barrel, and it's 100% reliable. I even CCW my G20 with this spring and guide rod. For me, there are really only 2 minor downsides to running the heavier spring, harder to rack the slide (could be a difference maker in a gunfight if you are wounded) and the recoil impulse is slightly higher. Competition shooters also claim it slows down quick follow-up shots, which I do believe it probably does if you're shooting the way they do, but I don't. I thought the whole point of shooting the 10mm is that you don't need no steenking follow-up shot!

One other thing to consider if you are worried about spending the $30 on the spring and guide rod is there could be a problem with your extractor and/or your extractor spring. Take a look at my avatar pic. That's my trigger safety from my G20 after appx. 250 rounds. Obviously a defective plating process from the factory, and Glock wouldn't send me a new one (said they could only have a certified Glock armorer do the swap, which would have cost me more in gas to get to one than the part was worth, so I bought and replaced it myself). I'm guessing that, like every manufacturer these days, they are sub-contracting some of their small parts and springs out to other vendors to save money. It's possible that your extractor spring is bad from the factory, or that your extractor has a defect such that it's not properly grabbing the rim of the brass. You may want to check on that first.

Honestly though, when you get this ironed out, I think you will be impressed with the G20. It's an incredible platform for the 10mm. Good luck and be safe!
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Old 06-09-2012, 11:47   #24
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Is this still ONE FTE, or do you have a trend of FTE's?
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Old 06-09-2012, 12:55   #25
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Sounds like a fluke to me.

The only thing the stock RSA did for me was batter the frame a tad and made the brass fly out of sight and allow the pistol to unlock a tad faster than I like. Seems to be a Glock trait judging by the smeared primers seen laying around everywhere in once shot brass.

Put in a 22# spring and SS guide rod and all is well. No battering, No brass flying out of sight and nice clean primer strikes. Also shoot a 5.15" LW Barrel. Chambers and extracts great! Don't need no sloppy $2.00 whore loose chamber in my otherwise wonderful pistol.

The only way I could see a extractor slipping off the brass would be if the hot load bulged the brass a hair thus pushing the brass up and back a tad causing the extractor to have a slam grab on the edge of the brass.

Just shoot the crap out of it and move on.
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Old 06-09-2012, 13:16   #26
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Would not give it a second thought, you answered your own question. If it felt different, it was. If it felt under charged, it was. It happens!

If you have a good reliable scale, weigh a magazine full, and shoot them. If everything runs as supposed to, keep weighing until you find one that is 5+ grains lighter than the others. Then shoot the lighter ones and see if they run. From that point on, weigh each and every round in a box, and mark the lighter weighing ones with a black felt tip on the primer. Make sure to shoot them at the range, so if there is a mishap again, you'll know the culprit. This should instill the confidence back in your G20, and your choice of ammo.
I didn't think of that. What brand of scale would you recommend? I don't have a good one right now.

TDC20,
All the parts are brand new and look good.

dm1906,
Yes I had one FTE in 125 rounds. I haven't got a chance to go shoot again yet.

ETA: The extractor spring is nice and tight so I doubt there is anything wrong there.
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Old 06-09-2012, 13:57   #27
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I'd say shoot it, shoot it, shoot it......and then shoot it some more. My brand new Glock 20 SF had fte when it was brand new. Didn't matter if it was factory ammo, my re-loads, or nickee10mm's handloads. I learned to eject the stuck round, give the gun a good cussin' and shoot it some more. And after awhile, it was shooting 100% perfect. No ftf or fte...I'm with etherealkiller. Sometimes a new Glock (or any new gun) needs more break-in then others. I wouldn't spend a penny on it until you're sure it's never going to be right. lol
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Old 06-09-2012, 14:39   #28
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I didn't think of that. What brand of scale would you recommend? I don't have a good one right now.

TDC20,
All the parts are brand new and look good.

dm1906,
Yes I had one FTE in 125 rounds. I haven't got a chance to go shoot again yet.

ETA: The extractor spring is nice and tight so I doubt there is anything wrong there.
Weighing of loaded cartridges is never a reliable method of determining component capacities by an end user. Primary OEM suppliers (Remington, Winchester, Federal, etc.) do, but they maintain their standards for the components, manufacture the components, and assemble the components. Secondary manufacturers (Underwood, BB, DT, etc.) only assemble components sourced elsewhere, essentially using retail components available to end users. The variations within individual components, and the variation of assembled cartridges can span several grains. For example, I weighed 50 rounds (within the last couple hours, on a reliable, calibrated scale) of Remington .380 Auto factory rounds. Not target rounds, but common full power HP high dollar rounds. While most were within the upper end of 1 grain, the extreme spread was over 3 grains, with one right at 4 grains. This is a small round, with a very light bullet, small case, and light powder charge, compared to the 10mm. Weigh 10, and multiply the ES by 10. Using this as a standard, you could theorize that the possible weight difference of these 10 rounds (still using the .380 for reference), is more than a complete powder charge of a typical 10mm. Add to that, unless you disassemble every round and weigh each component individually, you have no way of knowing which component is over/under weight, or what an ideal round should weigh. Increasing your sample count (number of rounds) improves the accuracy of an average, but also increases the number of variables. In the end, weighing complete cartridges is not a reliable method of determining anything, other than if you started with ten, and ended with ten, you didn't lose any.

Ultimately at this time, you only know you had one FTE, and nothing more. Any weapon and ammo combination can experience unexplained failures, for any of a hundred reasons. Unless you discover an obvious cause, concerning yourself about 1 failure in 125, or even 4-5 in 1,000, don't lose sleep over it. Glock won't, and I'm sure Underwood won't. Underwood will probably want to compensate you in some way, because that's how they operate. If you complain to Glock, they'll tell you to return the pistol to them for testing. After a few months, they'll send it back and tell you nothing is wrong. That's the way they operate. Unless you develop a trend, there's nothing to worry about. Keep in mind, the cartridge that failed you is intended to perform at an extreme of a pistol design. If failures are to happen, that's where it will be.

All that said, if you feel concerned or have lost confidence in your equipment, for any reason, go full tilt and do what you have to do to set your mind at ease. You may have to rely on the equipment to protect yourself or loved ones from harm, and you don't need THAT zombie following you. There are enough of the other zombies to deal with....
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Old 06-09-2012, 15:56   #29
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DM1906,

I appreciate the advice. I haven't lost confidence in the weapon yet as it was during the first 20 rounds, and i fired the next 110 trouble free, with different magazines.

I still feel as though a heavier spring would benefit me. Using a 17# spring for a 115gr 9mm, and the same spring for hot 10mm, doesn't seem logical. If for nothing else to not chase my brass way down the range.
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Old 06-09-2012, 16:21   #30
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DM1906,

I appreciate the advice. I haven't lost confidence in the weapon yet as it was during the first 20 rounds, and i fired the next 110 trouble free, with different magazines.

I still feel as though a heavier spring would benefit me. Using a 17# spring for a 115gr 9mm, and the same spring for hot 10mm, doesn't seem logical. If for nothing else to not chase my brass way down the range.
Don't pay any attention to the spring weights, model to model. The 9mm is a small frame, with a significantly lesser mass slide and barrel, with a very different type of recoil, compared to the 10mm. Unless you are doing something very different than the engineers, don't try to out-engineer them.

A fully OEM pistol should have managed the rounds you put through them. Changing the spring may or may not necessarily be a bad idea, but not for the reason you state now. I suggest feeding the thing what it likes, for now. Get outside the box after you have some (hundreds/thousands) rounds through it, and upgrade accordingly. Patience has it's rewards. Get to know it, before you change it. You may miss something important if you don't. If the pistol has a problem, and you start changing things, you may cover the problem until it becomes a real problem. No good things come from that.
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Old 06-09-2012, 17:33   #31
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Don't pay any attention to the spring weights, model to model. The 9mm is a small frame, with a significantly lesser mass slide and barrel, with a very different type of recoil, compared to the 10mm. Unless you are doing something very different than the engineers, don't try to out-engineer them.

A fully OEM pistol should have managed the rounds you put through them. Changing the spring may or may not necessarily be a bad idea, but not for the reason you state now. I suggest feeding the thing what it likes, for now. Get outside the box after you have some (hundreds/thousands) rounds through it, and upgrade accordingly. Patience has it's rewards. Get to know it, before you change it. You may miss something important if you don't. If the pistol has a problem, and you start changing things, you may cover the problem until it becomes a real problem. No good things come from that.
Thats true. If there is an issue, and it wasn't a bad round, I don't want to cover it up.

One thing I noticed with the OEM spring, is when I field strip the gun, it is really loose against the barrel lug. I'm not new to glocks so I know how it moves during re assembly.

I dont own any other large frame glocks so I wonder, is this normal for the large frames? I mean the spring requires 0 effort to be removed. It's practically falling out.
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Old 06-09-2012, 17:45   #32
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Thats true. If there is an issue, and it wasn't a bad round, I don't want to cover it up.

One thing I noticed with the OEM spring, is when I field strip the gun, it is really loose against the barrel lug. I'm not new to glocks so I know how it moves during re assembly.

I dont own any other large frame glocks so I wonder, is this normal for the large frames? I mean the spring requires 0 effort to be removed. It's practically falling out.
It's common with all Glocks. And a upgraded RSA won't change it over all.
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Old 06-09-2012, 20:47   #33
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Spring weights are rather trivial, considering the weight differences in slides. Throwing of brass further than findable, on the other hand, can be controlled with heavier spring weights.

As far as scales go, any of the inexpensive digitals will do. Just look for discrepancies between weights. Then narrow down to regain confidence in your ammo and firearm. That's why I said look for 5 grain differences, if in fact you are finding that range of discrepancy, confidence being regained will be a must. I think your experience is rare, but like I said, happens. If you find only 5 grains of variance, and they run, confidence will be gained, which is, what you are looking for. If 10 grain variance is found, and they don't run, you know what to look out for!!!!
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Old 06-09-2012, 21:17   #34
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Thats very strange. Everything I've read, 10mm guys swear by using heavier recoil springs.
Not me.

I have a 22# spring and steel guide rod for my G20, but it is not 100% reliable with hot loads. It runs good with medium to medium warm loads, but it is only about 90-95% reliable with hot loads. The stock RSA is 100%, and felt recoil is lighter for most loads. They cost about $7, and I replace them after every 3000 rounds.

The only time my G20 had failures with the stock RSA, is when I had literally worn out my ejector. Another $7 part, and I am again 100% function.
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Old 06-09-2012, 21:22   #35
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Don't pay any attention to the spring weights, model to model. The 9mm is a small frame, with a significantly lesser mass slide and barrel, with a very different type of recoil, compared to the 10mm. Unless you are doing something very different than the engineers, don't try to out-engineer them.

A fully OEM pistol should have managed the rounds you put through them. Changing the spring may or may not necessarily be a bad idea, but not for the reason you state now. I suggest feeding the thing what it likes, for now. Get outside the box after you have some (hundreds/thousands) rounds through it, and upgrade accordingly. Patience has it's rewards. Get to know it, before you change it. You may miss something important if you don't. If the pistol has a problem, and you start changing things, you may cover the problem until it becomes a real problem. No good things come from that.
Totally agree 100% on both paragraphs.

Shoot at least a thousand rounds through it and then see if there is a need to start changing parts.
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Old 06-09-2012, 21:32   #36
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Spring weights are rather trivial, considering the weight differences in slides. Throwing of brass further than findable, on the other hand, can be controlled with heavier spring weights.

As far as scales go, any of the inexpensive digitals will do. Just look for discrepancies between weights. Then narrow down to regain confidence in your ammo and firearm. That's why I said look for 5 grain differences, if in fact you are finding that range of discrepancy, confidence being regained will be a must. I think your experience is rare, but like I said, happens. If you find only 5 grains of variance, and they run, confidence will be gained, which is, what you are looking for. If 10 grain variance is found, and they don't run, you know what to look out for!!!!
I agree with this statement. A 5 grain difference with a single round is reason for concern. Your original suggestion was to weigh a full magazine. That would suggest a possible .5 grain difference per round (average, with a 10 round mag, or .3 with a 15), which is well within any measure of tolerance, and nearly impossible to isolate. We shouldn't have to concern ourselves with such menial details with commercially produced ammo. It's just so rare, it isn't a factor. If it becomes a regular issue, dump the ammo and move on to another brand. Keep it simple.
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Old 06-09-2012, 21:44   #37
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I agree with this statement. A 5 grain difference with a single round is reason for concern. Your original suggestion was to weigh a full magazine. That would suggest a possible .5 grain difference per round (average, with a 10 round mag, or .3 with a 15), which is well within any measure of tolerance, and nearly impossible to isolate. We shouldn't have to concern ourselves with such menial details with commercially produced ammo. It's just so rare, it isn't a factor. If it becomes a regular issue, dump the ammo and move on to another brand. Keep it simple.
I hope it isn't an issue with the ammo, as I really liked underwood. They were all very clean and well made. None of the other rounds from them did it, which makes me more inclined to chalk it up as a fluke.
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Old 06-09-2012, 21:54   #38
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I hope it isn't an issue with the ammo, as I really liked underwood. They were all very clean and well made. None of the other rounds from them did it, which makes me more inclined to chalk it up as a fluke.
It isn't the ammo. Every mfg can have a bad one. It was a generalized statement. Underwood is good stuff, if you don't roll your own. Shoot some more. If it doesn't happen again, it was a fluke. If it happens again from the same lot of bullets, it was still a fluke. Underwood will replace them. Don't worry about it unless it repeats with other rounds, or under other conditions. One FTE in 125 rounds is NOT anything to be concerned about. There are just too many variables to consider.
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Old 06-09-2012, 22:07   #39
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It isn't the ammo. Every mfg can have a bad one. It was a generalized statement. Underwood is good stuff, if you don't roll your own. Shoot some more. If it doesn't happen again, it was a fluke. If it happens again from the same lot of bullets, it was still a fluke. Underwood will replace them. Don't worry about it unless it repeats with other rounds, or under other conditions. One FTE in 125 rounds is NOT anything to be concerned about. There are just too many variables to consider.
I contacted them to see if anyone else had reported this issue with this load. Kevin, at underwood, stated they hadn't had any other reports. He then offered me $10 off my next order. I was not asking for anything but he extended that offer. I thought that was generous but was really just seeing if they had any known issues with that lot, just to rule that possibility out.

I don't load my own yet so their ammo is my first choice.
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Old 06-09-2012, 22:13   #40
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I contacted them to see if anyone else had reported this issue with this load. Kevin, at underwood, stated they hadn't had any other reports. He then offered me $10 off my next order. I was not asking for anything but he extended that offer. I thought that was generous but was really just seeing if they had any known issues with that lot, just to rule that possibility out.

I don't load my own yet so their ammo is my first choice.
Good deal. I figured they'd take care of you.

When you're ready to start doing your own, be very careful the advice you take. There's a LOT more bad advice out there than good. A lot of well-meaning guys with way better luck then me. It's a science, and you MUST learn it that way. If not, you'll rely on your luck.
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