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Old 06-04-2012, 12:46   #26
boyscout399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMurphy View Post
HKs are good, but they're not "THE BEST".

HK, like Glock has issues with German superiority complex, i.e we know better than you do what YOU want.

When Larry Vickers tells you to build a pistol a certain way (and you asked him for massive amounts of advice on the subject) and then you do what he told you not to...... well.... dumb.

There were changes made to the P30 that he didn't tell them to put in from what I remember, that have had to post-production be changed back by those who know what's up.

Glock would have had the Gen 4 pistols out years before if they'd listened to Glock USA, they knew they needed change when the P99 came out.
If you read the Everyday Tactical interview with Larry Vickers, you will find that he worked on the HK416 and the HK45 full size and compact. Mr. Vickers did not work on the P30. The only things HK did that Vickers did not approve of was putting the P30 style grip texture on the HK45 full size, and putting the trigger trough in the trigger guard to prevent gloves from being caught.
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Old 06-04-2012, 14:14   #27
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Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
If you read the Everyday Tactical interview with Larry Vickers, you will find that he worked on the HK416 and the HK45 full size and compact. Mr. Vickers did not work on the P30. The only things HK did that Vickers did not approve of was putting the P30 style grip texture on the HK45 full size, and putting the trigger trough in the trigger guard to prevent gloves from being caught.
Agreed!! Plus the Design of the grip geometry on the P30 had Karl Nill involved. The side panel's and back strap are amazing you can really get a custom fit to your hand.

Glock's is more of a gimmick in the gen.4's compared to the Quality of HK's. I have a HK45 and i'm happy HK went with it as it is. Plus my HK45c i also like it as it is...

So Larry Vicker's, Ken Hackathorn and Karl Nill in the latest HK's. HK went first class all the way.

No cheap short cut's like tyring the same RSA in 9mm's and .40 just non-sense as this is hurting Glock as the extractor's lately! Remnd's me of Sig.'s fall...
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Old 06-04-2012, 22:34   #28
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Originally Posted by deeHKman View Post
Agreed!! Plus the Design of the grip geometry on the P30 had Karl Nill involved. The side panel's and back strap are amazing you can really get a custom fit to your hand.

Glock's is more of a gimmick in the gen.4's compared to the Quality of HK's. I have a HK45 and i'm happy HK went with it as it is. Plus my HK45c i also like it as it is...

So Larry Vicker's, Ken Hackathorn and Karl Nill in the latest HK's. HK went first class all the way.

No cheap short cut's like tyring the same RSA in 9mm's and .40 just non-sense as this is hurting Glock as the extractor's lately! Remnd's me of Sig.'s fall...
At first, Vickers hated the grip on the HK45, but he has since come to love it. He still hates the trough and suggests removing it.
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Old 06-06-2012, 23:27   #29
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My mistake, i was thinking of the HK45, not the P30.

Didn't know Nill was involved with the P30, but even with the funky grip look, it 'is' comfortable on the one i've shot.
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Old 06-06-2012, 23:35   #30
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HK makes the best non striker fired pistols imho,with Beretta and FN right behind them,as well as Sigs 2022pro. i think the best striker pistol crown is shared by Glock,S&W,Walther,Steyr and Caracal in no particular order. i think the new FNS will prove to be in that group shortly as well
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Old 06-07-2012, 11:38   #31
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I own a glock 23 gen 4 and a H&K P30, H&K by far my Favorite of all my guns!
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Old 06-07-2012, 21:02   #32
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I personally think HK makes the best polymer handguns.
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Old 06-07-2012, 21:07   #33
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P7 was a very nice well designed in size wise. Had an amazing accuracy to it.
BUT Yes there is a but which I dont like the gun was poorly designed in regards to the gas retardation system which escapes in the frame of the firearm at which upon rapid fire after 3 mags fill the gun gets so HOT it can not be held.
Mean while a Glock 26 can easily go through over 10 mags of 33 rounds without any heating to the the cappacity it can simply contiually be held and continuousely fired.
That is what makes the P7 a poorly designed firearm.




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i wish they would bring back the P7 series.
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Old 06-07-2012, 21:23   #34
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I'm yet to see anything that disputes that fact. No other polymer gun has a thing on HK. HK is the best poly gun on the market period. All others take a back seat!

Post this in General Glocking and watch all the fan boys claim the H&K is over priced junk while their Gen 4 9mm, that Glock still can't seem to get right, is perfect.

I own 2 H&Ks and they, especially my 45c, are the best polymer guns I have.
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:37   #35
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Originally Posted by pck50 View Post
P7 was a very nice well designed in size wise. Had an amazing accuracy to it.
BUT Yes there is a but which I dont like the gun was poorly designed in regards to the gas retardation system which escapes in the frame of the firearm at which upon rapid fire after 3 mags fill the gun gets so HOT it can not be held.
Mean while a Glock 26 can easily go through over 10 mags of 33 rounds without any heating to the the cappacity it can simply contiually be held and continuousely fired.
That is what makes the P7 a poorly designed firearm.
poorly designed? one of the most accurate and ergonomic pistols ever made with an ingenious, very safe manual of arms? as far as heat buildup the gun will run fine through a 100rd LE pistol qual and serve you well through the average shootout; distance of 7yds or less, average of 4 shots fired, 4 or less participants. use the tool in the context that it was designed for. a no compromise defensive handgun, not a range blaster.
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Old 06-08-2012, 08:54   #36
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I already had the two of them one being the PSP and after even the P7M8 with a polymer wrapped triggerguard that done nothing at all to keep the gun cool.
As for accuracy yes obsolutely as for safety through its cocking mechanism yes BUT as for practicality I wouldnt never ever want another one there are very poorly designed if a glock 26 can easily shoot off more then 10 - 33rd. Magazines and you can still safely handle the weapon why would anyone be silly enough to want an HKP7M8, PSP, HKP7M13, or even the HKP7M10, better question why is it no longer available think about that, it was only out for not even 25 years walther PP, PPK, PPKS have been out for more then almost 100 years and are still available. think before speaking please, have a very nice day.



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poorly designed? one of the most accurate and ergonomic pistols ever made with an ingenious, very safe manual of arms? as far as heat buildup the gun will run fine through a 100rd LE pistol qual and serve you well through the average shootout; distance of 7yds or less, average of 4 shots fired, 4 or less participants. use the tool in the context that it was designed for. a no compromise defensive handgun, not a range blaster.
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Old 06-08-2012, 10:44   #37
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I already had the two of them one being the PSP and after even the P7M8 with a polymer wrapped triggerguard that done nothing at all to keep the gun cool.
As for accuracy yes obsolutely as for safety through its cocking mechanism yes BUT as for practicality I wouldnt never ever want another one there are very poorly designed if a glock 26 can easily shoot off more then 10 - 33rd. Magazines and you can still safely handle the weapon why would anyone be silly enough to want an HKP7M8, PSP, HKP7M13, or even the HKP7M10, better question why is it no longer available think about that, it was only out for not even 25 years walther PP, PPK, PPKS have been out for more then almost 100 years and are still available. think before speaking please, have a very nice day.


If I need to shoot 10 33rd mags, then I need a rifle!

How about the high cost to produce to answer why they are not still made!


Maybe you need to think before speaking! (and research)


And a P2000SK would be the far better comparison to the g26. And a far better gun imo!
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:13   #38
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I think HK's are the best right now.

I have a feeling, after shooting Dave Sevigny's pistol a couple weeks ago, that FN will soon give them a run for the money.

Best striker fired trigger I have ever felt and it was factory. It had been shot about 5k times.

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Old 06-08-2012, 19:00   #39
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Yes I too also completely agree the P2000SK is better nicer and by far superior BUT how many can afford to spend $150.00 per 30 rd magazine when the glocks for a 33 rd cost under $50.00.
Dont get me wrong I completely love and adore moost of the HK's with only the exception of the P7.s due to there poorly designed gas retardation system why else would HK look to discontinue them they didnt want to get sued for burned hands, LOL.

Again HK is by far the finest weapons in the world undeniably JUST not the p7.

Additionally its so very sad to always rethink silly answers like to expensive to manufacture funny it is not to expensive for S&W , CZ, Sig Sauer, and even Colt not to mention Kimber all made of solid steel but there not to expensive to built please kindly and respectfully come out of y0our shell.

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If I need to shoot 10 33rd mags, then I need a rifle!

How about the high cost to produce to answer why they are not still made!


Maybe you need to think before speaking! (and research)


And a P2000SK would be the far better comparison to the g26. And a far better gun imo!
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Old 06-08-2012, 19:51   #40
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Originally Posted by Shadyscott69 View Post
I think HK's are the best right now.

I have a feeling, after shooting Dave Sevigny's pistol a couple weeks ago, that FN will soon give them a run for the money.

Best striker fired trigger I have ever felt and it was factory. It had been shot about 5k times.
I don't have a PPQ Yet but i hear it's trigger is superb. Have you shot or tried a PPQ? Around me in the Upstate there are no PPQ's to try. FN neither...
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Old 06-08-2012, 20:02   #41
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I like the PPQ, and would buy one if I weren't committed to the Glock platform for competition and carry. It's not an HK though. Not in the same league.
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Old 06-08-2012, 20:05   #42
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I didn't even know you could get a 30 round mag for an HK handgun. It's absolutely irrelevant to me.
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Old 06-08-2012, 20:08   #43
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I didn't even know you could get a 30 round mag for an HK handgun. It's absolutely irrelevant to me.
I agree.
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Old 06-08-2012, 21:21   #44
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...That is what makes the P7 a poorly designed firearm.
The P7 is not a poorly designed pistol by any means. Rather, it is quite ingenious. The designer Helmut Welde also went on to design, amongst other things, the LEM trigger for other HK pistols.

The P7 was purpose built as a police duty sidearm, meant for quick and accurate fight stopping shots fired at close distances. It is not intended to be range gun. How many eight round P7 magazines can one reasonably carry as spares? Perhaps two or three. Within that limit, heating of the frame becomes a non-issue.

Despite the grip angle of about 110 degrees, which much like a Glock sits very low in the hand, the cartridges feed at an almost horizontal angle into the chamber. This greatly increases feeding reliability.

The chamber flutes reduce carbon build up and the subsequent possibility of spent cases "sticking" in the chamber, as well aiding in positive extraction/ejection. A P7 will continue to function with a missing or broken extractor. If you attempt this with a Glock you will have a single shot pistol.

Incorporated into the design is a cocking lever as well as other redundant drop safety measures. Even though it is striker fired this makes the P7, by design, inherently very safe to carry and use.

Why is the P7 no longer made? The answer is simple... the cost of manufacture per unit.

Glocks are great pistols. I carry one daily. But to my mind, disparaging the actual marvel of engineering that is the P7 is simply folly.

"If one is going to carry an underpowered pistol (9mm) he should carry the neatest and handiest one available, and that is the H&K P7." ~ Jeff Cooper
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Old 06-08-2012, 21:58   #45
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Agreed.

The P7 filled it's design criteria perfectly.

Because it does not meet YOUR standard as a range blaster does not mean it's poorly designed.

Considering the average Euro police officer carries (if any!) one, maximum two spare mags.....high round counts are not a worry when the P7 was designed.
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Old 06-08-2012, 22:16   #46
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ok, Fine I am sorry for releasing my opinion.



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Agreed.

The P7 filled it's design criteria perfectly.

Because it does not meet YOUR standard as a range blaster does not mean it's poorly designed.

Considering the average Euro police officer carries (if any!) one, maximum two spare mags.....high round counts are not a worry when the P7 was designed.
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Old 06-08-2012, 22:30   #47
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PPQ is also another very fine weapon the only thing that annoys me about that is the fact that Walther USA And Walthert Germany Clearly states not ever use any +P, especially +P+, as for +P+ pk that is one thing BUT as for regular +P? Come in old days they were all hotly loaded now there compromising a bit tooooo much to say the very least.
HK , FN Herstal, Glock and my god even Kahr states you can clearly use +P anything less then that I wouldnt want any part of it no offense.
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Old 06-08-2012, 23:13   #48
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Good point pck50. Another HK advantage is their big safety factor. +P+? No problem. Heck, you can even shoot .45 Super in an HK45.
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Old 06-09-2012, 07:25   #49
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Are H&Ks really superior?

Yes.

Next question.
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Old 06-09-2012, 17:31   #50
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PPQ is also another very fine weapon the only thing that annoys me about that is the fact that Walther USA And Walthert Germany Clearly states not ever use any +P, especially +P+, as for +P+ pk that is one thing BUT as for regular +P? Come in old days they were all hotly loaded now there compromising a bit tooooo much to say the very least.
HK , FN Herstal, Glock and my god even Kahr states you can clearly use +P anything less then that I wouldnt want any part of it no offense.
so, because the manufacturer recommends not to use +p or +p+ it discourages you? even when there are plenty of capable standard velocity rounds for range and self defense use? or is it a case of 'if the boom is bigger it must be a better round dude. i want a .50cal desert eagle so i can blow arms off or make holes the size of a dinner plate if someone tries attack me. wait, there are no +p+ .50cal rounds?'

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