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Old 05-29-2012, 14:33   #101
ReyFufuRulesAll
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAGunner View Post
This, apparently the OP is not familiar with the knockout kings game or the case where a man literally had his face eaten off by an attacker even after being shot, and that attacker had to be pumped full of lead and shot dead and the victim left with 25% of a human face.

Nah, that oversized wanna be James Bond jam-o-matic I'm sure would have done wonders, presumably because it "looks cool". Why would anyone ever need more than a .380 with 5 shots? I mean handguns are human vaporizors and a mere hit to the abdomen will incapacitate instantly right?
A) oversized? Probably.
B) jam-o-matic? Hardly. Clean the gun and use decent ammo and you won't have a problem.
C) 15 rounds, not 5. I always carry an extra mag with it.
D) read my replies before you start making personal attacks. I was an ******* to nobody, so there's no reason for you to be one to me.
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Old 05-29-2012, 14:57   #102
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Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
So much stupid in so little space. The round may stop any attacker, but no amount of practice with any handgun will stop every attacker before enough damage is done to kill the defender as well..... And if the assailant isn't stopped before inflicting a mortal wound, not much else matters. The most important thing to carry always is mindset, and you have little of that. Get some training.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAGunner
This, apparently the OP is not familiar with the knockout kings game or the case where a man literally had his face eaten off by an attacker even after being shot, and that attacker had to be pumped full of lead and shot dead and the victim left with 25% of a human face.

Nah, that oversized wanna be James Bond jam-o-matic I'm sure would have done wonders, presumably because it "looks cool". Why would anyone ever need more than a .380 with 5 shots? I mean handguns are human vaporizors and a mere hit to the abdomen will incapacitate instantly right?
A couple of rude tough guys. Glad you two know so much so the rest of us can let you tell us what to buy and how to defend ourselves. Arrogant a-holes.
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Old 05-29-2012, 15:23   #103
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The simple fact is the majority of self defense cases where a firearm was used and used successfully, a shot was never fired. In a sample study of around 9000 cases (if memory serves) when a shot was fired, it took just over two shots to end the attack regardless of the caliber used.

Doesn't matter to me what you carry. I think the first decision, the decision to carry is the most important. Then there is training and developing a mindset. There are a whole set of important decisions that follow those, and almost none of the gear decisions can be decided wrong, only differently. I have what works for me, you have what works for you.
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Old 05-29-2012, 15:47   #104
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Originally Posted by larry_minn View Post
Can you find ONE case where the person said. "I wish I had not had a spare mag?"
Uh, pretty much every time I carry a spare mag. Carrying the gun is uncomfortable enough, but carrying the spare mag puts it over the top on the "uncomfortability scale". Since 99.9999% of the time I'm not in a gunfight, anytime I find myself toting an extra mag, I also find myself uncomfortable enough that I'm saying "I wish I didn't bring this stupid spare mag."

I will deal with the uncomfortability of carrying the gun, but having to tote a spare mag too is not worth it to me based on my personal cost/benefit analysis.
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Old 05-29-2012, 16:39   #105
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Originally Posted by concretefuzzynuts View Post
A couple of rude tough guys. Glad you two know so much so the rest of us can let you tell us what to buy and how to defend ourselves. Arrogant a-holes.
You obviously missed or ignored the Original post, it was in fact the OP who felt the need to degrade people who carried anything more than what he carried, which is a .380.
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Old 05-29-2012, 16:51   #106
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Originally Posted by PAGunner View Post
You obviously missed or ignored the Original post, it was in fact the OP who felt the need to degrade people who carried anything more than what he carried, which is a .380.
I didn't miss it. Most of the people who responded, including me, stated that it is a personal choice. The OP has taken some heat and has been polite.

My response to the two posts were based on the tone in them.

And this is the OP:


Quote:
Unneccesary Carry Rigs
Now I'm all for preparation, and I do carry an extra mag with my PPK. However, I'm completely baffled by people who carry an absurd amount of crap with for their gun - Just the other day, I met a fellow who claimed to carry a G19 and 2 extra mags. WHY?

In my mind, if 15 rounds of JHP are insufficient, you've obviously made some poor choices in life, or should perhaps practice more.

So the question remains, why do people feel the need to carry an entire tactical setup with them on a trip to walmart? Is it just so they say they can? Does it make them feel "cool"?

Again, I am 100% behind the legal right to carry whatever you want, and however much you want, but at a certain point it just becomes impractical and silly.


ETA: I know I'm going to be flamed for this, but I just had to get it off my chest.

ETAA: the guy in question also carries a LCP with 3 spare mags on his ankles.
And the responses were"Get some training" and that his gun is a "jam-o-matic".
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Old 05-29-2012, 17:24   #107
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Originally Posted by ReyFufuRulesAll View Post
I suppose that's a fair point. Maybe if I lived in a bigger city where crime is more prevalent, I'd be singing a different tune.
Going back and reading, THIS is where we differ. I live in Miami and I will tell you there is plenty of crime and plenty of craziness here.

That said, if I lived in a small peaceful town in WI and felt a .380 would do I probably wouldn't bother carry at all, but I support every law abiding citizens right to carry and I DON'T question their motives by assuming they want to be "cool" or call their rigs "tactical" and "absurd" and it sure doesn't baffle my mind. Not for nothing but plenty of reputable manufacturers of holsters make double mag pouches, they make them for a reason, because people use them. Perhaps someone wants a spare mag in case their carry spring breaks and maybe 1 mag with bonded bullets in case someone pins them in over a road rage incident and they have someone shooting at them from cover (road rate incidents happen every day down here). I carry 1 extra mag and I only carry an extra mag when I can carry it with ease, maybe 1/4 of the time, but I don't assume others are "mall ninjas" for carrying more. To assume others are "mall ninjas" just for carrying a couple extra mags is the same condescending attitude of a few democrats from NY I know that have their guns, who think everyone else is an incompetent boob but them (the irony is they're all actually incompetent with firearms IMO, but I digress).

My post was sarcastic becaus I was attempting to open your eyes. You seem to be very over confident in your .380s ability to stop, when in reality a 10mm can fail to stop. Carry what you like, I'm a bit bias against .380s considering all the micro 9mms on the market I see them as "unnecessary"... With that said, I apologize if you took offense to my post, I wish nothing but to help fellow GT members, online P'ing matches are petty.
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Old 05-29-2012, 17:24   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReyFufuRulesAll View Post
so basically, you can tell, solely by my choice of one of my carry guns, that I completely lack the ability to stop a threat due to my lack of training... Remind me how that has anything to do with it again? Or are you just being condescending for the sake of feeling better than someone else on the internet? If you can really tell that much about a person based only on their handgun preference, I would like to know your secret. Please do share.
I have debriefed enough combat veterans to know that under the stress of close quarters combat most men will, at best, react as they have been trained to react. One's shooting ability on a square range without an adrenaline dump in immaterial to discussions about mortal combat, except to the extent that it may form a good foundation for continued training. One's handgun choice is largely immaterial as well, as no handgun round will reliably incapacitate "any attacker". It was the mindset that one's equipment and a little paper punching could render one sufficiently prepared for "any attacker" which gave you away as a duffer. Mindset is nearly everything. Having a m-2 .50 cal doesn't render a man armed without mindset and training.
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Old 05-29-2012, 17:38   #109
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Originally Posted by ReyFufuRulesAll View Post
I suppose that's a fair point. Maybe if I lived in a bigger city where crime is more prevalent, I'd be singing a different tune.
Uh, the size of the city and/or the prevalence of crime have no real bearing on how much force will be required to stop an attacker before he can mortally wound his victim.
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Old 05-29-2012, 20:37   #110
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Originally Posted by PAGunner View Post
You obviously missed or ignored the Original post, it was in fact the OP who felt the need to degrade people who carried anything more than what he carried, which is a .380.
I didn't degrade anyone, i asked a simple question and received good answers. If you read anything beyond the OP, you would know that.
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Old 05-29-2012, 20:48   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
I have debriefed enough combat veterans to know that under the stress of close quarters combat most men will, at best, react as they have been trained to react. One's shooting ability on a square range without an adrenaline dump in immaterial to discussions about mortal combat, except to the extent that it may form a good foundation for continued training. One's handgun choice is largely immaterial as well, as no handgun round will reliably incapacitate "any attacker". It was the mindset that one's equipment and a little paper punching could render one sufficiently prepared for "any attacker" which gave you away as a duffer. Mindset is nearly everything. Having a m-2 .50 cal doesn't render a man armed without mindset and training.
The question remains, why do you assume I am mentally incompetant? Just because you feel like it? Because it makes you feel like a big man behind the keyboard? Because you assume that, because I occasionally carry a smaller gun than you, that I have no clue what I am doing?

I am under no illusion that I am 100% prepared for "any threat", as I refuse to go through life as if I were in a combat zone. I will carry what I comfortably can, and my original post was questioning why people carry more than what is comfortable. To this, I received some good answers, as well as some overtly hostile ones. There's no reason to be rude on the internet, as it proves nothing - "reputation" matters little in an environment of anonymity. To assume that anyone questioning anything is automatically incompetant is just plain wrong.
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Old 05-29-2012, 20:54   #112
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Uh, the size of the city and/or the prevalence of crime have no real bearing on how much force will be required to stop an attacker before he can mortally wound his victim.
Poking 15 holes in an attacker should do the job for me.

If I'm in town, I have my G17, which I have just started carrying an extra mag for as per the suggestions in this thread.

If I'm in the woods (or occasionally in winter) I carry my S&W 66-2 with .357 UDX and a spare speedloader.

What I don't carry is all three, along with 7 reloads for each, as such a loadout is highly uncomfortable, as well as heavy. If you do, that's fine by me. My original question, as repeatedly stated, is why someone might want to carry more than what is comfortable. I made no judgements, and attacked no one.

Since when did curiosity become such a crime?
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Old 05-29-2012, 21:15   #113
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Rey, I've always been of the "comforting, if not comfortable" crowd. Yeah, I ain't gunna lie, a big gun and a double mag pouch is not "comfy" per se, but I don't always carry that, and a G20 is all I currently have. I just got used to it. Hope that helps.
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Old 05-29-2012, 21:51   #114
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Rey, I've always been of the "comforting, if not comfortable" crowd. Yeah, I ain't gunna lie, a big gun and a double mag pouch is not "comfy" per se, but I don't always carry that, and a G20 is all I currently have. I just got used to it. Hope that helps.
With a decent holster, even my G17 can be comfy enough. I like my KingTuk holster. If you get one of those, carry it at 4-5 o'clock.

And I like that quote. Thanks for being nice.
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Old 05-30-2012, 02:15   #115
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I couldn't agree more.

I have no problem with associations, but I will admit that my situational awareness could use work. I've been working towards that lately (since I've started carrying), and I know I am getting better. My biggest problem seems to be motivation however, and I am actively working to correct that.
I believe that is something most of us can always use more work on, in spite working on it continuously, I doubt mine will ever be at a level I find satisfactory. I still get surprised and startled by people that try to sneak up on me in the right settings, my kids and grandkids get one heck of a kick when they manage to do so. Granted, most times it occurs in my comfort zones where I let my guard down because I’m relaxed or otherwise completely engaged with what I’m doing. My two main weak zones are at home and often the office.

We found motivation was not an issue when we turned it to a game and practiced it often. Nearly anything you turn into a game or a competition my family would be on board for. Personally, I believe few individuals can achieve 100% awareness of their surroundings 100% of the time. Some trained individuals might, but few of us have received that level of training. Taking that in consideration, you want to be around other people that remain highly aware as well, they’ll pick up on what you miss (hopefully).

Case in point: http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/two-tampa-men-arrested-in-attack-on-macdill-soldier/1230931. This soldier has probably had more SA training than most of us. I don’t understand how, at that time of night, he would allow anyone to get into his personal space with the excuse of asking for a dollar. An even greater invitation came about when he reached for his wallet to give them the dollar. That allowed even greater proximity while both his hands and attention were diverted elsewhere.

Do some exercises at home. Stuff like this is fun and sharpens your observations skills:
. Take a pair of sunglasses, buy a soda and sit at a mall’s courtyard for a bit. Observe people, how they handle their bags and purses, their interactions with others. Notice who is observing whom, for how long, the possible intent for them observing that person. When someone puts down their bags on the floor or at a counter, look around discretely, who is observing that person and their packages. I’ve been doing that since I was in high school, mostly because I enjoy people watching and how they interact with one another. If you quietly observe, you will learn to identify an interaction about to go sour just by the posture one of the two people takes, long before the first hostile word comes out of their mouth. They are sending the same message to the person they’re talking to, if that person is perceptive they’ll do one of two things (1) beat them with the first hostile comment or (2) attempt to appease the person that started posturing for conflict. If you’re at a mall with kiosks, sit nearby and observe, someone will attempt to negotiate a lower price for whatever they’re selling. Watch the interaction (you don’t need to be close enough to hear what they’re saying) just watch the body language and facial expressions. If something else is going on at another kiosk, keep an eye on that one too without losing sight of the one that originally got your attention. Little by little you’ll be able to expand on how many interactions you can keep tabs on without losing much on any. As you expand, attempt to do so with interactions that are in different directions. You’ll find yourself smiling often as you see your predictions coming true, that is a good time for sip of your soda to mask your smile.

Practice wherever you go, stores, gas stations, just about everywhere. People are constantly sending messages to one another, most times without noticing. Be very attentive to the ones that appear to be consciously controlling the message they are trying to send, more so if they are doing so while approaching another, eyes, smile and hands (mostly eyes and a soft smile) will be what they use to lull someone into a (possibly false) sense of security to get close enough (a sales person will engage the hands as part of the soothing body language, a criminal will likely control attention to their hands). Normally people don’t allow others into their personal space unless the other has managed to get that instinctive guard lowered. They’ll ask for a light, the time, directions, compliment you on something. Pay more attention to the overall body language than the words (shoulders will often reflect hand movement before arm and hands do), rarely will a person be able to disguise it all to the point you don’t notice something odd and out of place.

People-watching is actually lots of fun for the most part, if you go at it with the right mind set, you’ll learn more than you think.

Before you know it you would be able to enter a place, scan the people in there and gather enough information (quickly) to determine if you wish to stay or if somewhere else might be a better choice. Remain observant and you’ll know when it is the time to leave too.

When entering a place of business (this becomes second nature eventually) scan for all available exits. Don’t forget the one at the back for employees and unloading merchandise. In restaurants, I prefer sitting near back emergency exits than the front door, for obvious reasons.

Training could be fun if set it up to be fun.

Enjoy!
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Old 05-30-2012, 14:30   #116
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One of our guys carries two pistols 5 extra magazines, 3 flashlights and an AR magazine......PLUSS his body armor and his duty belt. We tell him not to go around water, because if he fell in, he'd sink!
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