[WinterWizard]

Hollowpoints in 9mm, .40 and .45 will all penetrate about 12-15", sometimes a little more. Round nose bullets in 9mm, .40 and .45 will all penetrate through and through a person easily. And check out box of truth's website. They found that through a windshield, the .45 had the least deflection after penetrating the windshield. And no round was stopped by a car door.

I am so sick of these penetration/caliber war threads. Are you lining people up and executing them, Nazi-style? Are you shooting through walls and doors in your defensive scenario? Are you a cop? Do you really, really, really want to be a cop?

[Amplified]

Originally Posted by WinterWizard

Hollowpoints in 9mm, .40 and .45 will all penetrate about 12-15", sometimes a little more. Round nose bullets in 9mm, .40 and .45 will all penetrate through and through a person easily. And check out box of truth's website. They found that through a windshield, the .45 had the least deflection after penetrating the windshield. And no round was stopped by a car door?

I am so sick of these penetration threads. Are you lining people up and executing them, Nazi style? Are you shooting through walls and doors in your defensive scenario? Are you a cop? Do you really want to be a cop?

I am in Law Enforcement, are you a psychic? .45 ACP, is a lousy round, any way you slice it. Slow, bulbous, has a terrible arc trajectory and has abysmal penetration. Out of the big 3, I'd take them in this order and this grain weight, .40 S&W (135gr - 155gr), 9mm Luger (115gr - 127gr), .45 ACP (165gr - 200gr). Anything else in those three calibers is garbage.

[Amplified]

Okay, time to end this debate.

Here are the best autoloader pistol caliber rounds, with the optimal grain weights and superior commercially available loads.

1. 10mm Auto (135gr) 1,600 fps
2. .357 Sig (115gr) 1,550 fps
3. .40 S&W (135gr) 1,415 fps
4. 9mm Luger (115gr) 1,450 fps
5. .45 ACP (165gr) 1,250 fps

[CDR_Glock]

Originally Posted by Amplified

Is the .40 S&W really all that much more effective than the 9mm? .45 ACP penetration is awfully pathetic, but it's still a good anti-personal caliber. Out of these three calibers, which would be the best one overall?

They're all on equal footing. The advantage of the 9mm is cost, capacity and thickness of the grip. The 45 is already expanded. It will leave a mark. The 40 is a good combination of capacity and size.

I have all three and I carry all three (not at one time). No problem having to depend upon versus another. Ballistics vary upon which length barrel you're talking about and what type of load.

[WinterWizard]

Originally Posted by Amplified

I am in Law Enforcement, are you a psychic? .45 ACP, is a lousy round, any way you slice it. Slow, bulbous, has a terrible arc trajectory and has abysmal penetration. Out of the big 3, I'd take them in this order and this grain weight, .40 S&W (135gr - 155gr), 9mm Luger (115gr - 127gr), .45 ACP (165gr - 200gr). Anything else in those three calibers is garbage.

Terrible arc trajectory? Are you shooting at people 100 yards away? Any caliber is point of aim at defensive ranges. And if you need to shoot at someone far away, you should be using a rifle.

135-155gr in .40 and 165-200 gr. in .45 are the worst for penetration in those calibers. 165 or 180 gr. in .40 and 200 or 230 gr. in .45 give you better sectional density in either caliber, hence better penetration, without over penetrating with JHPs.

But can you please site your sources for your claims? Or are they opinion based and biased because you are a cop and are issued .40 S&W?

A .45 FMJ will penetrate about 30 or more inches in ballistics gel an have been known to penetrate through and through a deer and certainly through a person, as can any major caliber. And ALL hollow point defensive rounds are designed to penetrate about 12-15 inches, per FBI protocol and Police demands. And the heavier rounds are less likely to deflect and go off course once they encounter an obstacle, like glass, metal or bone. And if you need barrier penetration, you need heavy bullets or fast rounds, like the .357 Sig or 10 mm.

But to claim that the .45 is slow and ineffective is ignorant. You can run 230 gr. rounds at 950 fps or 165 gr. rounds at 1225 fps if you are a velocity junkie. Or you can run 185 gr. rounds at 1150 fps. But oh, I forgot - 1200 fps is slow and .451" hollow points that penetrate to about 15 inches and open up to .80" are not effective.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm

Check out tests 1, 2 and 3.

Windshield, inside-out: Winner .45.
Windshield, outside-in: Winner .45
Car door: Winner all (a car door isn't stopping anything)

Also, look at the FBI testing and average out the penetration numbers and tell me what you find. Most tests show that the penetration numbers on .40 and .45 are nearly identical. The advantage in the .45 is a larger diameter bullet and a heavier bullet that deflects less.

To be honest, I don't know where you get this crap. Maybe go read some stuff and then come back here and speak intelligently. Sorry, there is just no way to candy coat that.

[M&P Shooter]

Originally Posted by Amplified

Might as well throw the rounds at them with your hand, it'll have a better trajectory and reach the target faster.

Subsonic rounds, suck!

I can't even debate with you anymore because I can tell by your post you know nothing about ballistics at all.

[M&P Shooter]

Originally Posted by Amplified

I am in Law Enforcement, are you a psychic? .45 ACP, is a lousy round, any way you slice it. Slow, bulbous, has a terrible arc trajectory and has abysmal penetration. Out of the big 3, I'd take them in this order and this grain weight, .40 S&W (135gr - 155gr), 9mm Luger (115gr - 127gr), .45 ACP (165gr - 200gr). Anything else in those three calibers is garbage.

Your right, the 45acp with a 230gr round did really bad against advancing forces in early trench warfare

[OctoberRust]

Originally Posted by fredj338

And most 9mm shooters keep telling themselves their 9mm are just as good. Confidence in ones gear is important so keep up telling yourself it's all good.

Did I hit a nerve Fred?

[Amplified]

Originally Posted by WinterWizard

Terrible arc trajectory? Are you shooting at people 100 yards away? Any caliber is point of aim at defensive ranges. And if you need to shoot at someone far away, you should be using a rifle.

135-155gr in .40 and 165-200 gr. in .45 are the worst for penetration in those calibers. 165 or 180 gr. in .40 and 200 or 230 gr. in .45 give you better sectional density in either caliber, hence better penetration, without over penetrating with JHPs.

But can you please site your sources for your claims? Or are they opinion based and biased because you are a cop and are issued .40 S&W?

A .45 FMJ will penetrate about 30 or more inches in ballistics gel an have been known to penetrate through and through a deer and certainly through a person, as can any major caliber. And ALL hollow point defensive rounds are designed to penetrate about 12-15 inches, per FBI protocol and Police demands. And the heavier rounds are less likely to deflect and go off course once they encounter an obstacle, like glass, metal or bone. And if you need barrier penetration, you need heavy bullets or fast rounds, like the .357 Sig or 10 mm.

But to claim that the .45 is slow and ineffective is ignorant. You can run 230 gr. rounds at 950 fps or 165 gr. rounds at 1225 fps if you are a velocity junkie. Or you can run 185 gr. rounds at 1150 fps. But oh, I forgot - 1200 fps is slow and .451" hollow points that penetrate to about 15 inches and open up to .80" are not effective.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm

Check out tests 1, 2 and 3.

Windshield, inside-out: Winner .45.
Windshield, outside-in: Winner .45
Car door: Winner all (a car door isn't stopping anything)

Also, look at the FBI testing and average out the penetration numbers and tell me what you find. Most tests show that the penetration numbers on .40 and .45 are nearly identical. The advantage in the .45 is a larger diameter bullet and a heavier bullet that deflects less.

To be honest, I don't know where you get this crap. Maybe go read some stuff and then come back here and speak intelligently. Sorry, there is just no way to candy coat that.

Gosh, golly such dedication to an antiquated caliber! Lol! Did I hurt your inner child? .45 ACP can't penetrate a stick of hot butter at the muzzle!

[Amplified]

Originally Posted by M&P Shooter

I can't even debate with you anymore because I can tell by your post you know nothing about ballistics at all.

Oh no! Yes! I cannot ever post again!

[Amplified]

Originally Posted by M&P Shooter

Your right, the 45acp with a 230gr round did really bad against advancing forces in early trench warfare

230 grain .45 ACP is so slow, once the round detonates in the chamber, the season's change before the round leaves the muzzle! What a stupid round! 230 grain .45 is for novices, armchair commandos and those that will be the first to get dropped in a gun battle.

[Amplified]

Originally Posted by WinterWizard

Terrible arc trajectory? Are you shooting at people 100 yards away? Any caliber is point of aim at defensive ranges. And if you need to shoot at someone far away, you should be using a rifle.

135-155gr in .40 and 165-200 gr. in .45 are the worst for penetration in those calibers. 165 or 180 gr. in .40 and 200 or 230 gr. in .45 give you better sectional density in either caliber, hence better penetration, without over penetrating with JHPs.

But can you please site your sources for your claims? Or are they opinion based and biased because you are a cop and are issued .40 S&W?

A .45 FMJ will penetrate about 30 or more inches in ballistics gel an have been known to penetrate through and through a deer and certainly through a person, as can any major caliber. And ALL hollow point defensive rounds are designed to penetrate about 12-15 inches, per FBI protocol and Police demands. And the heavier rounds are less likely to deflect and go off course once they encounter an obstacle, like glass, metal or bone. And if you need barrier penetration, you need heavy bullets or fast rounds, like the .357 Sig or 10 mm.

But to claim that the .45 is slow and ineffective is ignorant. You can run 230 gr. rounds at 950 fps or 165 gr. rounds at 1225 fps if you are a velocity junkie. Or you can run 185 gr. rounds at 1150 fps. But oh, I forgot - 1200 fps is slow and .451" hollow points that penetrate to about 15 inches and open up to .80" are not effective.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm

Check out tests 1, 2 and 3.

Windshield, inside-out: Winner .45.
Windshield, outside-in: Winner .45
Car door: Winner all (a car door isn't stopping anything)

Also, look at the FBI testing and average out the penetration numbers and tell me what you find. Most tests show that the penetration numbers on .40 and .45 are nearly identical. The advantage in the .45 is a larger diameter bullet and a heavier bullet that deflects less.

To be honest, I don't know where you get this crap. Maybe go read some stuff and then come back here and speak intelligently. Sorry, there is just no way to candy coat that.

This is a funny video and shows the pathetic BB gun level penetration of the .45 "Always Can't Penetrate."

Larry Tests Book Penetration with 9mm, .40, and .45 - YouTube

Larry Tests Book Penetration with 9mm, .40, and .45 - YouTube

[WinterWizard]

And I've seen tests where the .45 out-penetrated the .40 in these stupid phone book tests. But it's obvious you are here to troll and stir the pot. Have fun with that.

And for your information, most 180 gr. .40 rounds leave the barrel at about 1000 fps. 185 gr. .45 rounds leave the barrel at about 1050-1150 fps. But of course, a smaller, slower, lighter round is bound to be more effective.

[Amplified]

Originally Posted by WinterWizard

And I've seen tests where the .45 out-penetrated the .40 in these stupid phone book tests. But it's obvious you are here to troll and stir the pot. Have fun with that.

And for your information, most 180 gr. .40 rounds leave the barrel at about 1000 fps. 185 gr. .45 rounds leave the barrel at about 1050-1150 fps. But of course, a smaller, slower, lighter round is bound to be more effective.

Fine then, post one of those videos that doesn't exist and btw you've officially won the dolt award for this thread, congratulations!

[Amplified]

Originally Posted by WinterWizard

And I've seen tests where the .45 out-penetrated the .40 in these stupid phone book tests. But it's obvious you are here to troll and stir the pot. Have fun with that.

And for your information, most 180 gr. .40 rounds leave the barrel at about 1000 fps. 185 gr. .45 rounds leave the barrel at about 1050-1150 fps. But of course, a smaller, slower, lighter round is bound to be more effective.

I'm well aware of standard as well as +p loading velocities and their respective grain weights.

[Amplified]

.45 ACP

165 gr 1,250 fps
185 gr 1,000 to 1,200 fps
200 gr 1,000 to 1,150 fps
230 gr 800 fps to 1,050 fps

These are approximates and there are of course slower loadings available, especially in that worthless 230 grain weight.

Just for you WinterWhiner. Congratulations!

[Amplified]

The only autoloader pistol calibers that I prefer .45 "Always Can't Penetrate" over are as follows;

.22 LR,MAG,Short
.25 ACP
.32 ACP
.380 ACP/ 9mm Kurtz

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by Amplified

I am in Law Enforcement, are you a psychic? .45 ACP, is a lousy round, any way you slice it. Slow, bulbous, has a terrible arc trajectory and has abysmal penetration. Out of the big 3, I'd take them in this order and this grain weight, .40 S&W (135gr - 155gr), 9mm Luger (115gr - 127gr), .45 ACP (165gr - 200gr). Anything else in those three calibers is garbage.

If this were a true statement, then it would be another example of morons hiring morons. You are no LEO, not with your attitutde & lack of general respect for those that know more than you. Good try though. I'll bet you've slain 100s of large animals to prove your point as well huh? Yeah, thought so. Believe what you like, vel alone doesn't kill anything in handguns. Get out of the basement, go shoot something besides wood boards & dry books, just another example of what you don't know about terminal ballistics.

[OctoberRust]

Originally Posted by fredj338

If this were a true statement, then it would be another example of morons hiring morons. You are no LEO, not with your attitutde & lack of general respect for those that know more than you. Good try though. I'll bet you've slain 100s of large animals to prove your point as well huh? Yeah, thought so. Believe what you like, vel alone doesn't kill anything in handguns. Get out of the basement, go shoot something besides wood boards & dry books, just another example of what you don't know about terminal ballistics.

I think it's obvious he's trolling here.

I believe there was another that had an axe to grind with the .45 acp too before he was banned. Maybe it's the same guy?

[triggerjerk]

Just get one of each and stop bickering I say

Sometimes I'm in a .45 (G21) mood. Sometimes I am in a 9mm mood.
Once a decade I'm in a .40 SW mood. I stick with HST in all however.

[WinterWizard]

Originally Posted by OctoberRust

I think it's obvious he's trolling here.

I believe there was another that had an axe to grind with the .45 acp too before he was banned. Maybe it's the same guy?

Yep. Just about everything he says is pointless or off the mark. Time to stop feeding the troll.

[M&P Shooter]

Originally Posted by Amplified

230 grain .45 ACP is so slow, once the round detonates in the chamber, the season's change before the round leaves the muzzle! What a stupid round! 230 grain .45 is for novices, armchair commandos and those that will be the first to get dropped in a gun battle.

I'm 95% sure you are a super troll looking to start battles for your own amusement and 5% think you might really be this stupid and believe what you post. Either way you are kind of amusing in a Gunkid kind of way

[M&P Shooter]

Originally Posted by Amplified

I am in Law Enforcement

I have a sneaky suspicion this guy could be Gunkid back once again with another new name. I need to what for some more post and check the Survival forum to see if this guy posted crazy stuff over there. Game on Sir

[dkf]

[Amplified]

Originally Posted by M&P Shooter

I'm 95% sure you are a super troll looking to start battles for your own amusement and 5% think you might really be this stupid and believe what you post. Either way you are kind of amusing in a Gunkid kind of way

Aww! Did I hurt your wittle feelings haha! Still doesn't change the fact that the 230 grain .45 ACP round has abysmal hard barrier penetration, and a trajectory similar to a three pointer at a special ed elementary school Basket Ball game!