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Old 04-30-2012, 21:15   #41
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Originally Posted by K.Kiser View Post
They all suck, but any port in a storm is what a sidearm is about.. The biggest difference in these calibers is the opinions that follow them... The shooter that can remain composed for that last moment to sink 2-3 shots where they need to go will win everytime.. A well trained and accurate marksman that can continue to operate under pressure will make almost any weapon more lethal than a keyboard commando is with a rail gun...

With that said, I just ordered a CCW in 9mm... I picked a 9mm due to slightly more capacity in a small handgun to make me feel better, but equally important is the 9mm is more affordable which allows me more practice and practice means effectivness...
That isn't all that a sidearm is about. 9mm is okay, but if I were going to carry a .35 caliber, it would be .357 Sig. Double Tap has a new load in .357 Sig that reaches 1,550 fps with a 4" barrel! That would be about the equivalent of 9mm +p+p+p+p+.

Last edited by Amplified; 04-30-2012 at 21:16..
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Old 04-30-2012, 21:15   #42
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Originally Posted by WoodenPlank View Post
Yep. I have a preference for 357SIG, though.
Good.
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Old 04-30-2012, 21:19   #43
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Why would you want something going only 850 - 1,000 fps, when you can have something going up to 1,450 fps with the same barrel length and same diameter? It makes about as much sense as eating a pile of poop over a filet mignon. Some people had to have been dropped on their heads, repeatedly.
There is a lot more to terminal performance than velocity. W/O proper bullet construction, low SD bullets like the 135gr/40 are just waiting to be failures on the street. I am not all over the FI stds, but 12" is a reasonable min. I doubt the 135gr/40 does that. Vel alone doesn't kill or wound well, at least not in handgunb rounds. If that were true, then we would all be quite happy w/ 100gr solids in the 357sig going 1700fps.
FWIW, trajectory in a servic ehandgun round is laughable. They all shoot flat to 50yds. & 90% of shooters can't hit much past 50yds anyway, so pretty moot point.
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Last edited by fredj338; 04-30-2012 at 21:22..
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Old 04-30-2012, 21:25   #44
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That isn't all that a sidearm is about. 9mm is okay, but if I were going to carry a .35 caliber, it would be .357 Sig. Double Tap has a new load in .357 Sig that reaches 1,550 fps with a 4" barrel! That would be about the equivalent of 9mm +p+p+p+p+.

Sounds impressive in the world of small sidearms, but still not a real showstopper in the grand scheme of things... One must place even that round accurately to expect an immediate improvement of a bad situation... Place that shot poorly and the results will be dismal, as with any SD sidearm... Place the new .357 Sig accurately and it will have very helpful results, as with any SD sidearm.. I do like the .357 Sig caliber as much as any SD cartridge though, just too expensive for me to really burn through ammo...
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Old 04-30-2012, 21:28   #45
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Originally Posted by WoodenPlank View Post
Yep. I have a preference for 357SIG, though.
That's my preference of the two duty calibers I own (9mm and .357sig). However, due to the smaller platform the 9mm gets 75% of the carry time.

I've recently become very intrigued with the 147-grain .357sig JHP self-defense rounds. If this bullet weight is the bomb in 9mm as a lot of people attest what's not to like about the same bullet going 200 fps faster?

And if I ever do find a sub-compact .357sig pistol that fits my hand the 147-grain JHP ought to be a formidable self-defense round in that short-barrel pistol.
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Old 04-30-2012, 21:35   #46
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Caliber wars are nothing more than "my dad is bigger than your dad" arguments. Everyone wants to think what they have is the best. You'll notice that people that have several different calibers understand that it is the shooter and not the gun or ammo that is the most effective. The best caliber is the one that you shoot the best with and are most comfortable with.
+1 you nailed it
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Old 04-30-2012, 22:58   #47
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There is a lot more to terminal performance than velocity. W/O proper bullet construction, low SD bullets like the 135gr/40 are just waiting to be failures on the street. I am not all over the FI stds, but 12" is a reasonable min. I doubt the 135gr/40 does that. Vel alone doesn't kill or wound well, at least not in handgunb rounds. If that were true, then we would all be quite happy w/ 100gr solids in the 357sig going 1700fps.
FWIW, trajectory in a servic ehandgun round is laughable. They all shoot flat to 50yds. & 90% of shooters can't hit much past 50yds anyway, so pretty moot point.
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Old 04-30-2012, 23:00   #48
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Originally Posted by K.Kiser View Post
Sounds impressive in the world of small sidearms, but still not a real showstopper in the grand scheme of things... One must place even that round accurately to expect an immediate improvement of a bad situation... Place that shot poorly and the results will be dismal, as with any SD sidearm... Place the new .357 Sig accurately and it will have very helpful results, as with any SD sidearm.. I do like the .357 Sig caliber as much as any SD cartridge though, just too expensive for me to really burn through ammo...
The cost the downfall of the .357 Sig, at least for the time being.
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Old 04-30-2012, 23:03   #49
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That's my preference of the two duty calibers I own (9mm and .357sig). However, due to the smaller platform the 9mm gets 75% of the carry time.

I've recently become very intrigued with the 147-grain .357sig JHP self-defense rounds. If this bullet weight is the bomb in 9mm as a lot of people attest what's not to like about the same bullet going 200 fps faster?

And if I ever do find a sub-compact .357sig pistol that fits my hand the 147-grain JHP ought to be a formidable self-defense round in that short-barrel pistol.
I'd advocate Double Tap's 115 grain .357 Sig load, rated at 1,550 fps from a 4" barrel! If I wanted a slow 1,200 fps round, I'd throw it at the bad guy haha. I suppose if 147 grain is a must than the .357 Sig would be preferred over the 9mm Luger in that grain weight.
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Old 04-30-2012, 23:10   #50
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Are you sure you subsonic round fans are actually firearm enthusiasts? Seriously, maybe you guys should take up slingshot-arms lol!

I'll keep my high-mach, precision rounds, and you can have your Fred Flintstone slingshots!
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Old 04-30-2012, 23:10   #51
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Hollowpoints in 9mm, .40 and .45 will all penetrate about 12-15", sometimes a little more. Round nose bullets in 9mm, .40 and .45 will all penetrate through and through a person easily. And check out box of truth's website. They found that through a windshield, the .45 had the least deflection after penetrating the windshield. And no round was stopped by a car door.

I am so sick of these penetration/caliber war threads. Are you lining people up and executing them, Nazi-style? Are you shooting through walls and doors in your defensive scenario? Are you a cop? Do you really, really, really want to be a cop?

Last edited by WinterWizard; 04-30-2012 at 23:15..
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Old 04-30-2012, 23:15   #52
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Hollowpoints in 9mm, .40 and .45 will all penetrate about 12-15", sometimes a little more. Round nose bullets in 9mm, .40 and .45 will all penetrate through and through a person easily. And check out box of truth's website. They found that through a windshield, the .45 had the least deflection after penetrating the windshield. And no round was stopped by a car door?

I am so sick of these penetration threads. Are you lining people up and executing them, Nazi style? Are you shooting through walls and doors in your defensive scenario? Are you a cop? Do you really want to be a cop?
I am in Law Enforcement, are you a psychic? .45 ACP, is a lousy round, any way you slice it. Slow, bulbous, has a terrible arc trajectory and has abysmal penetration. Out of the big 3, I'd take them in this order and this grain weight, .40 S&W (135gr - 155gr), 9mm Luger (115gr - 127gr), .45 ACP (165gr - 200gr). Anything else in those three calibers is garbage.

Last edited by Amplified; 04-30-2012 at 23:16..
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Old 04-30-2012, 23:21   #53
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Okay, time to end this debate.

Here are the best autoloader pistol caliber rounds, with the optimal grain weights and superior commercially available loads.

1. 10mm Auto (135gr) 1,600 fps
2. .357 Sig (115gr) 1,550 fps
3. .40 S&W (135gr) 1,415 fps
4. 9mm Luger (115gr) 1,450 fps
5. .45 ACP (165gr) 1,250 fps

Last edited by Amplified; 04-30-2012 at 23:23..
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Old 04-30-2012, 23:25   #54
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Is the .40 S&W really all that much more effective than the 9mm? .45 ACP penetration is awfully pathetic, but it's still a good anti-personal caliber. Out of these three calibers, which would be the best one overall?
They're all on equal footing. The advantage of the 9mm is cost, capacity and thickness of the grip. The 45 is already expanded. It will leave a mark. The 40 is a good combination of capacity and size.

I have all three and I carry all three (not at one time). No problem having to depend upon versus another. Ballistics vary upon which length barrel you're talking about and what type of load.
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:05   #55
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I am in Law Enforcement, are you a psychic? .45 ACP, is a lousy round, any way you slice it. Slow, bulbous, has a terrible arc trajectory and has abysmal penetration. Out of the big 3, I'd take them in this order and this grain weight, .40 S&W (135gr - 155gr), 9mm Luger (115gr - 127gr), .45 ACP (165gr - 200gr). Anything else in those three calibers is garbage.
Terrible arc trajectory? Are you shooting at people 100 yards away? Any caliber is point of aim at defensive ranges. And if you need to shoot at someone far away, you should be using a rifle.

135-155gr in .40 and 165-200 gr. in .45 are the worst for penetration in those calibers. 165 or 180 gr. in .40 and 200 or 230 gr. in .45 give you better sectional density in either caliber, hence better penetration, without over penetrating with JHPs.

But can you please site your sources for your claims? Or are they opinion based and biased because you are a cop and are issued .40 S&W?

A .45 FMJ will penetrate about 30 or more inches in ballistics gel an have been known to penetrate through and through a deer and certainly through a person, as can any major caliber. And ALL hollow point defensive rounds are designed to penetrate about 12-15 inches, per FBI protocol and Police demands. And the heavier rounds are less likely to deflect and go off course once they encounter an obstacle, like glass, metal or bone. And if you need barrier penetration, you need heavy bullets or fast rounds, like the .357 Sig or 10 mm.

But to claim that the .45 is slow and ineffective is ignorant. You can run 230 gr. rounds at 950 fps or 165 gr. rounds at 1225 fps if you are a velocity junkie. Or you can run 185 gr. rounds at 1150 fps. But oh, I forgot - 1200 fps is slow and .451" hollow points that penetrate to about 15 inches and open up to .80" are not effective.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm

Check out tests 1, 2 and 3.

Windshield, inside-out: Winner .45.
Windshield, outside-in: Winner .45
Car door: Winner all (a car door isn't stopping anything)

Also, look at the FBI testing and average out the penetration numbers and tell me what you find. Most tests show that the penetration numbers on .40 and .45 are nearly identical. The advantage in the .45 is a larger diameter bullet and a heavier bullet that deflects less.

To be honest, I don't know where you get this crap. Maybe go read some stuff and then come back here and speak intelligently. Sorry, there is just no way to candy coat that.

Last edited by WinterWizard; 05-01-2012 at 02:42..
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Old 05-01-2012, 05:56   #56
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Might as well throw the rounds at them with your hand, it'll have a better trajectory and reach the target faster.

Subsonic rounds, suck!
I can't even debate with you anymore because I can tell by your post you know nothing about ballistics at all.
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Old 05-01-2012, 06:00   #57
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I am in Law Enforcement, are you a psychic? .45 ACP, is a lousy round, any way you slice it. Slow, bulbous, has a terrible arc trajectory and has abysmal penetration. Out of the big 3, I'd take them in this order and this grain weight, .40 S&W (135gr - 155gr), 9mm Luger (115gr - 127gr), .45 ACP (165gr - 200gr). Anything else in those three calibers is garbage.
Your right, the 45acp with a 230gr round did really bad against advancing forces in early trench warfare
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Old 05-01-2012, 06:20   #58
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And most 9mm shooters keep telling themselves their 9mm are just as good. Confidence in ones gear is important so keep up telling yourself it's all good.

Did I hit a nerve Fred?
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Old 05-01-2012, 07:47   #59
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Terrible arc trajectory? Are you shooting at people 100 yards away? Any caliber is point of aim at defensive ranges. And if you need to shoot at someone far away, you should be using a rifle.

135-155gr in .40 and 165-200 gr. in .45 are the worst for penetration in those calibers. 165 or 180 gr. in .40 and 200 or 230 gr. in .45 give you better sectional density in either caliber, hence better penetration, without over penetrating with JHPs.

But can you please site your sources for your claims? Or are they opinion based and biased because you are a cop and are issued .40 S&W?

A .45 FMJ will penetrate about 30 or more inches in ballistics gel an have been known to penetrate through and through a deer and certainly through a person, as can any major caliber. And ALL hollow point defensive rounds are designed to penetrate about 12-15 inches, per FBI protocol and Police demands. And the heavier rounds are less likely to deflect and go off course once they encounter an obstacle, like glass, metal or bone. And if you need barrier penetration, you need heavy bullets or fast rounds, like the .357 Sig or 10 mm.

But to claim that the .45 is slow and ineffective is ignorant. You can run 230 gr. rounds at 950 fps or 165 gr. rounds at 1225 fps if you are a velocity junkie. Or you can run 185 gr. rounds at 1150 fps. But oh, I forgot - 1200 fps is slow and .451" hollow points that penetrate to about 15 inches and open up to .80" are not effective.

[url]http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm[/url]

Check out tests 1, 2 and 3.

Windshield, inside-out: Winner .45.
Windshield, outside-in: Winner .45
Car door: Winner all (a car door isn't stopping anything)

Also, look at the FBI testing and average out the penetration numbers and tell me what you find. Most tests show that the penetration numbers on .40 and .45 are nearly identical. The advantage in the .45 is a larger diameter bullet and a heavier bullet that deflects less.

To be honest, I don't know where you get this crap. Maybe go read some stuff and then come back here and speak intelligently. Sorry, there is just no way to candy coat that.
Gosh, golly such dedication to an antiquated caliber! Lol! Did I hurt your inner child? .45 ACP can't penetrate a stick of hot butter at the muzzle!
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Old 05-01-2012, 07:49   #60
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I can't even debate with you anymore because I can tell by your post you know nothing about ballistics at all.
Oh no! Yes! I cannot ever post again!
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