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Old 04-30-2012, 18:40   #26
M&P Shooter
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Originally Posted by oldman11 View Post
Caliber wars are nothing more than "my dad is bigger than your dad" arguments. Everyone wants to think what they have is the best. You'll notice that people that have several different calibers understand that it is the shooter and not the gun or ammo that is the most effective. The best caliber is the one that you shoot the best with and are most comfortable with.
Caliber debates usually turn into most people trying to justify their purchase based on internet tales from other people trying to justify their tales based on no facts other then shooting at blocks of gel. Bottom line is the 40cal & 45acp are a better choice for someone who is not recoil sensitive to a little more snap. A bigger bullet will do more damage against soft tissue and organs. If a 9mm and 45acp jhp both fail to expand the 45acp is still going to make a larger wound channel and if they both expand the 45acp will still make a larger wound channel. Now most people will say "not much of a difference in diameter" but in a fight for my life I will take any edge I can get, even if it's a very small edge that's still better then nothing.

The 9mm is a small high speed round that doesn't have the momentum behind it like the 180gr 40 or 230gr 45acp. Don't get me wrong shot placement is everything and that's why I practice with my G23 which is my 24/7 carry gun and my 1911 5" 45acp and I can hit just as good with them from self defense distances as I can with my CZ 75B 9mm which I never carry because I don't care for the 9mm as a self defense round when I can carry my G23 and get high capacity in a 9mm size weapon but with a 180gr jhp.
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Old 04-30-2012, 19:21   #27
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Screw all of this debate, I'll just open carry an AR-50A1 on my back everywhere. I wonder if that'll get any attention? Haha!

Last edited by Amplified; 04-30-2012 at 19:26..
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Old 04-30-2012, 19:25   #28
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I always prefer the highest velocity loadings in every caliber.
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Old 04-30-2012, 19:30   #29
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Originally Posted by M&P Shooter View Post
Caliber debates usually turn into most people trying to justify their purchase based on internet tales from other people trying to justify their tales based on no facts other then shooting at blocks of gel. Bottom line is the 40cal & 45acp are a better choice for someone who is not recoil sensitive to a little more snap. A bigger bullet will do more damage against soft tissue and organs. If a 9mm and 45acp jhp both fail to expand the 45acp is still going to make a larger wound channel and if they both expand the 45acp will still make a larger wound channel. Now most people will say "not much of a difference in diameter" but in a fight for my life I will take any edge I can get, even if it's a very small edge that's still better then nothing.

The 9mm is a small high speed round that doesn't have the momentum behind it like the 180gr 40 or 230gr 45acp. Don't get me wrong shot placement is everything and that's why I practice with my G23 which is my 24/7 carry gun and my 1911 5" 45acp and I can hit just as good with them from self defense distances as I can with my CZ 75B 9mm which I never carry because I don't care for the 9mm as a self defense round when I can carry my G23 and get high capacity in a 9mm size weapon but with a 180gr jhp.
180 gr totally sucks in .40 Smith. Too slow! Use 135 gr or give up your .40 and go up to .45 ACP where the 185 gr has better ballistics. Why in the heck would you want a subsonic round?
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Old 04-30-2012, 19:32   #30
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Really? Caliber wars in the title? A discussion that is held over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over?
What he said!!!


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Old 04-30-2012, 19:58   #31
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10mm might be a better choice than all the others if:

1) You don't CC - Model 20 and even 29 are not small pistols. Fine for home defense though.
2) You reload - factory stuff is harder to come by locally and expensive compared to 9 or 40
3) You like flexibility - 10mm comes in all flavors, from 40 S&W ballistic clones to nuke loads
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Old 04-30-2012, 20:18   #32
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180 gr totally sucks in .40 Smith. Too slow! Use 135 gr or give up your .40 and go up to .45 ACP where the 185 gr has better ballistics. Why in the heck would you want a subsonic round?
Federal HST 180gr 40cal performs very well.
All bullets performed well in Heavy Clothing. Federal HST again demonstrated the designed expansion characteristics and outperformed all tested rounds for expansion.
Bullet Caliber/Weight Penetration Expansion Retained Weight
Federal HST 40 S&W 180 gr. 13.0 0.788 101.56%
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Old 04-30-2012, 20:20   #33
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Federal HST 180gr 40cal performs very well.
All bullets performed well in Heavy Clothing. Federal HST again demonstrated the designed expansion characteristics and outperformed all tested rounds for expansion.
Bullet Caliber/Weight Penetration Expansion Retained Weight
Federal HST 40 S&W 180 gr. 13.0 0.788 101.56%
Perhaps you should just carry a slingshot, the shot will be traveling faster than those rounds. Sigh.
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Old 04-30-2012, 20:21   #34
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Originally Posted by M&P Shooter View Post
Federal HST 180gr 40cal performs very well.
All bullets performed well in Heavy Clothing. Federal HST again demonstrated the designed expansion characteristics and outperformed all tested rounds for expansion.
Bullet Caliber/Weight Penetration Expansion Retained Weight
Federal HST 40 S&W 180 gr. 13.0” 0.788” 101.56%
Why would you want something going only 850 - 1,000 fps, when you can have something going up to 1,450 fps with the same barrel length and same diameter? It makes about as much sense as eating a pile of poop over a filet mignon. Some people had to have been dropped on their heads, repeatedly.

Last edited by Amplified; 04-30-2012 at 20:22..
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Old 04-30-2012, 20:30   #35
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Perhaps you should just carry a slingshot, the shot will be traveling faster than those rounds. Sigh.
Your not making any sense to me? I can have a 180gr round with lower recoil then the 135gr round and get 13" of penetration and .78" expansion with less recoil. I rather have a heavier bullet slowly grinding to a halt being propelled by it's momentum from the extra weight then a lighter fast bullet zipping in expanding to fast. Some bullets perform better at certain weights like the 230gr 45acp out of a 1911 5" The 180gr round was designed for a 4" barrel weapon and it works just fine.
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Old 04-30-2012, 20:56   #36
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9mm and .45 for me!
G26, G19 and G21 mi personal favorites!
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Old 04-30-2012, 21:04   #37
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9mm and .45 for me!
G26, G19 and G21 mi personal favorites!
G21 loaded with 230gr jhp's is a awesome combo!
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Old 04-30-2012, 21:04   #38
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They all suck, but any port in a storm is what a sidearm is about.. The biggest difference in these calibers is the opinions that follow them... The shooter that can remain composed for that last moment to sink 2-3 shots where they need to go will win everytime.. A well trained and accurate marksman that can continue to operate under pressure will make almost any weapon more lethal than a keyboard commando is with a rail gun...

With that said, I just ordered a CCW in 9mm... I picked a 9mm due to slightly more capacity in a small handgun to make me feel better, but equally important is the 9mm is more affordable which allows me more practice and practice means effectivness...

Last edited by K.Kiser; 04-30-2012 at 21:09..
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Old 04-30-2012, 21:06   #39
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Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
With proper JHP ammo, all service calibers perform equally the same.
Yep. I have a preference for 357SIG, though.
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Old 04-30-2012, 21:13   #40
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Originally Posted by M&P Shooter View Post
Federal HST 180gr 40cal performs very well.
All bullets performed well in Heavy Clothing. Federal HST again demonstrated the designed expansion characteristics and outperformed all tested rounds for expansion.
Bullet Caliber/Weight Penetration Expansion Retained Weight
Federal HST 40 S&W 180 gr. 13.0 0.788 101.56%
Might as well throw the rounds at them with your hand, it'll have a better trajectory and reach the target faster.

Subsonic rounds, suck!
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Old 04-30-2012, 21:15   #41
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Originally Posted by K.Kiser View Post
They all suck, but any port in a storm is what a sidearm is about.. The biggest difference in these calibers is the opinions that follow them... The shooter that can remain composed for that last moment to sink 2-3 shots where they need to go will win everytime.. A well trained and accurate marksman that can continue to operate under pressure will make almost any weapon more lethal than a keyboard commando is with a rail gun...

With that said, I just ordered a CCW in 9mm... I picked a 9mm due to slightly more capacity in a small handgun to make me feel better, but equally important is the 9mm is more affordable which allows me more practice and practice means effectivness...
That isn't all that a sidearm is about. 9mm is okay, but if I were going to carry a .35 caliber, it would be .357 Sig. Double Tap has a new load in .357 Sig that reaches 1,550 fps with a 4" barrel! That would be about the equivalent of 9mm +p+p+p+p+.

Last edited by Amplified; 04-30-2012 at 21:16..
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Old 04-30-2012, 21:15   #42
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Yep. I have a preference for 357SIG, though.
Good.
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Old 04-30-2012, 21:19   #43
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Why would you want something going only 850 - 1,000 fps, when you can have something going up to 1,450 fps with the same barrel length and same diameter? It makes about as much sense as eating a pile of poop over a filet mignon. Some people had to have been dropped on their heads, repeatedly.
There is a lot more to terminal performance than velocity. W/O proper bullet construction, low SD bullets like the 135gr/40 are just waiting to be failures on the street. I am not all over the FI stds, but 12" is a reasonable min. I doubt the 135gr/40 does that. Vel alone doesn't kill or wound well, at least not in handgunb rounds. If that were true, then we would all be quite happy w/ 100gr solids in the 357sig going 1700fps.
FWIW, trajectory in a servic ehandgun round is laughable. They all shoot flat to 50yds. & 90% of shooters can't hit much past 50yds anyway, so pretty moot point.
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Old 04-30-2012, 21:25   #44
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That isn't all that a sidearm is about. 9mm is okay, but if I were going to carry a .35 caliber, it would be .357 Sig. Double Tap has a new load in .357 Sig that reaches 1,550 fps with a 4" barrel! That would be about the equivalent of 9mm +p+p+p+p+.

Sounds impressive in the world of small sidearms, but still not a real showstopper in the grand scheme of things... One must place even that round accurately to expect an immediate improvement of a bad situation... Place that shot poorly and the results will be dismal, as with any SD sidearm... Place the new .357 Sig accurately and it will have very helpful results, as with any SD sidearm.. I do like the .357 Sig caliber as much as any SD cartridge though, just too expensive for me to really burn through ammo...
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Old 04-30-2012, 21:28   #45
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Yep. I have a preference for 357SIG, though.
That's my preference of the two duty calibers I own (9mm and .357sig). However, due to the smaller platform the 9mm gets 75% of the carry time.

I've recently become very intrigued with the 147-grain .357sig JHP self-defense rounds. If this bullet weight is the bomb in 9mm as a lot of people attest what's not to like about the same bullet going 200 fps faster?

And if I ever do find a sub-compact .357sig pistol that fits my hand the 147-grain JHP ought to be a formidable self-defense round in that short-barrel pistol.
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Old 04-30-2012, 21:35   #46
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Originally Posted by oldman11 View Post
Caliber wars are nothing more than "my dad is bigger than your dad" arguments. Everyone wants to think what they have is the best. You'll notice that people that have several different calibers understand that it is the shooter and not the gun or ammo that is the most effective. The best caliber is the one that you shoot the best with and are most comfortable with.
+1 you nailed it
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Old 04-30-2012, 22:58   #47
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There is a lot more to terminal performance than velocity. W/O proper bullet construction, low SD bullets like the 135gr/40 are just waiting to be failures on the street. I am not all over the FI stds, but 12" is a reasonable min. I doubt the 135gr/40 does that. Vel alone doesn't kill or wound well, at least not in handgunb rounds. If that were true, then we would all be quite happy w/ 100gr solids in the 357sig going 1700fps.
FWIW, trajectory in a servic ehandgun round is laughable. They all shoot flat to 50yds. & 90% of shooters can't hit much past 50yds anyway, so pretty moot point.
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Old 04-30-2012, 23:00   #48
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Sounds impressive in the world of small sidearms, but still not a real showstopper in the grand scheme of things... One must place even that round accurately to expect an immediate improvement of a bad situation... Place that shot poorly and the results will be dismal, as with any SD sidearm... Place the new .357 Sig accurately and it will have very helpful results, as with any SD sidearm.. I do like the .357 Sig caliber as much as any SD cartridge though, just too expensive for me to really burn through ammo...
The cost the downfall of the .357 Sig, at least for the time being.
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Old 04-30-2012, 23:03   #49
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That's my preference of the two duty calibers I own (9mm and .357sig). However, due to the smaller platform the 9mm gets 75% of the carry time.

I've recently become very intrigued with the 147-grain .357sig JHP self-defense rounds. If this bullet weight is the bomb in 9mm as a lot of people attest what's not to like about the same bullet going 200 fps faster?

And if I ever do find a sub-compact .357sig pistol that fits my hand the 147-grain JHP ought to be a formidable self-defense round in that short-barrel pistol.
I'd advocate Double Tap's 115 grain .357 Sig load, rated at 1,550 fps from a 4" barrel! If I wanted a slow 1,200 fps round, I'd throw it at the bad guy haha. I suppose if 147 grain is a must than the .357 Sig would be preferred over the 9mm Luger in that grain weight.
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Old 04-30-2012, 23:10   #50
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Are you sure you subsonic round fans are actually firearm enthusiasts? Seriously, maybe you guys should take up slingshot-arms lol!

I'll keep my high-mach, precision rounds, and you can have your Fred Flintstone slingshots!
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