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Old 04-26-2012, 20:50   #76
Bluescot
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While I'm a better than average shot with a rifle and a shotgun I find hitting stuff with a pistol a challenge. Like anything else the more you practice with good fundamentals the better you become.

What was an eye opener for me was to switch from shooting targets and recreational shooting to more of the combat oriented short range quick shooting. At first it was very embarrassing to see how much I was missing but things got better as more time was spent in the combat type mode.

Makes me wonder how LE hit anything under the stress of the bad boys shooting back. I know they miss a lot too but still stay in there slinging lead back. Although the bad boys seem to miss even more at extremely close range and I like the ghetto horizontal hold.

LEs that hit stuff under those circumstances have my admiration.
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Old 04-26-2012, 22:13   #77
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Interesting story of armed citizen stopping a crazy in Salt Lake City, Utah.

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top...RhrWCM9dQ.cspx
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Old 04-27-2012, 07:58   #78
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A man has to know his limitations...
At best, I am capable of defending myself and those standing close to me....and of expediting the escape of myself and my loved ones.

My paintball experience has given me a hint at how confusing a gun fight must be. My hunting experience has taught me that one bullet doesn't always do the job.
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Old 04-27-2012, 09:40   #79
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If I had the presence of mind to make a reasoned choice on the spur of the moment I'd retreat to where I could safely call 9/11 to report a robbery in progress. Naturally I'd already have my weapon drawn and at the ready if needed.

The last thing I'd do is shoot at the perp(s) because I'm an untrained civilian and even if I managed to hit the bad guy(s) the impact might cause the discharge of his weapon aimed at the innocent clerk or someone else. From everything I've read even the best self-defense shootings are extremely stressful emotionally and possibly financially. Do I really need both the perp's family and the victim's family suing me for a morally justified response if it led to deadly projectiles flying before it was absolutely necessary?

So I'm back behind the cooler and just finished reporting the robbery in progress. If I hear gunshots I hope I'd be brave enough to intercede with the element of surprise to help save the clerk and anyone else the perp(s) decided to needlessly butcher. That's the tipping point for me, otherwise I've done the right thing in my mind and if the perp(s) escapes without harm to any innocents with the money before LEO responds then that's still a huge relief to me and to the innocents, I'm sure.
What he said.


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Old 04-27-2012, 10:17   #80
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If I hear gunshots I hope I'd be brave enough to intercede with the element of surprise to help save the clerk and anyone else the perp(s) decided to needlessly butcher.
If you hear gun shots, your inaction has probably already cost a clerk their life.
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Old 04-28-2012, 07:49   #81
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It would depend what race the guy was.
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Old 04-28-2012, 11:39   #82
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If you hear gun shots, your inaction has probably already cost a clerk their life.
No, the murderer is the one who cost the clerk his life in that scenario and no mere human being can ascertain what another will do before the fact unless the actor announces his intention prior to the act.

One of the problems we face in our society is the shifting of moral and legal responsibility onto those who don't bear that responsibility. And under the scenario I presented I may suffer guilt after-the-fact for not being clairvoyant and preventing the murder but I am in no way the one morally responsible who "cost" the clerk his/her life.

What would my responsibility be (without knowing the robber's intentions) should I fire at the perp and his weapon discharge a deadly round into the clerk? Talk about after-the-fact guilt ... ! To say nothing about the possible legal/financial responsibility should both the victim and the perp (and who knows, maybe even the authorities) decide I acted negligently.
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Old 04-28-2012, 13:49   #83
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Here you go!

What to do during a robbery -


Last edited by 3000fps; 04-28-2012 at 13:50..
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Old 04-28-2012, 14:29   #84
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
SYG laws are irrelevant in the scenario you posted. The proper questions of justifications are (a) are you allowed to use lethal force in response to a forcible felony and (b) are you allowed to act on behalf of a third party.

Beyond that, I would choose the course of action most likely to protect innocent life, based on the totality of the circumstances.
Even further than that, even if the law states you COULD take action, should you? I think calling 911 and being a good witness would be the most prudent course of action unless the robber starts blasting. Then I think you could probably be safe to shoot back.
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Old 04-28-2012, 19:42   #85
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Even further than that, even if the law states you COULD take action, should you? I think calling 911 and being a good witness would be the most prudent course of action unless the robber starts blasting. Then I think you could probably be safe to shoot back.
If nothing else it probably is the prudent financial course of action.
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Old 04-28-2012, 19:51   #86
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It is very rare for a justified shooter to hire or need a lawyer here. Maybe it works different in different states, but even before we had a statute preventing arrest, they gave a statement, went/stayed home and got a grand jury result in a few weeks, end of story. I've even seen a case where the police loaned one a spare gun while his was in evidence.
Here I agree with that - in the shootings in which the lines are clear between who is the good guy and who is the felon an attorney is not necessary. My problem is that in more than a few shootings it seems to me the lines are not clear.

At the risk if being tacky, I am quite certain that Zimmerman thought his shooting was rather clear cut. My guess though is that if he could reset the clock he probably would not have offered much to the police without his attorney present. (Of course if he could turn the clock back, I am guessing he might have turned it back a bit further than that.)
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Old 04-28-2012, 19:53   #87
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I would point to the No Guns sign and announce you're not supposed to have that in here.

Then launch a barrage of pork and beans cans.
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Old 04-29-2012, 17:01   #88
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Well perhaps the reason I was alluding to the carry rational of self defense is because that would be the primary reason one would be carrying a sidearm. Unless that is they are Paul Kersey (AKA Charles Bronson in Death Wish) and looking for a fight or perhaps a Dudley Doright out looking to foil crime.

I am not looking to pee in your corn flakes. You make good points. However one should know what is behind the door they are about to open if they should choose to act. These actions for some need to be weighed against their potential impact upon the actor and their family.

e.g. "There's Billy's dad, you know the guy who killed someone at the 7-11 earlier this year. He must be unstable plus he runs around with a gun. I keep my Tommy away from his kids now."

For the record I was not in any way attempting to diminish the abilities of the private citizen or put them in position of subservience to LEOs. Nor do I believe that your average LEO is any better able to deal with the situation. However that LEO is in an entirely different position when the feces hits the fan. If they acted in what they believed at the time was good faith there will be an entire department that stands behind them.
It's not my intention to get in a pissing match with you on this, but I have to refute a few of your statements.
First:Your suggestion that anyone with a CCP is trying to be "Mr. Crimefighter" is absurd. It is the exception to the rule. Most people with any semblance of conscience would at least consider the use of lethal force if the life of someone other than themself is being threatened. It's a matter of conscience, as well as a matter of possessing the ability to act accordingly. Not everyone can and that is understandable. Vigilante? Nah. Vigilant? Yes, definitely.
Second: Is it really a consideration that someone, who acts to protect the life of someone who is being threatened, be concerned because the neighbors perception is that you are whacked? Really? I mean, I for one, would not give two ****s about what someone says about me if I was fortunate enough to help a fellow citizen in need under the threat of death or bodily harm. If that were the case, many of us law abiding citizens who have a CCP would never have gotten one in the first place because we would have been too concerned with what liberal neighbor, Miss Jones says about us.

Last edited by aldematt57; 04-29-2012 at 17:03..
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Old 04-30-2012, 07:54   #89
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When you have a scenario posed here, anyone with a gun thinks they are qualified to answer. You may be "armed", but that is the the lowest level on the scale.

You have people posting who are at different stages in their lives. When I was 20 something I'd say blast away. 20 years later...that may not be the BEST choice.

It's the "can vs have to". I CAN shoot a lot of crooks, but do I HAVE to? If you are in a "HAVE to" scenario there won't be much thought involved if you have trained your brain to tell the difference between the two.

car ownership does not mean competent driver
guitar owner does not mean musician
gun owner does not mean you have a clue
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