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Old 04-18-2012, 14:37   #61
Geko45
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Originally Posted by Schabesbert View Post
I'd also like to point out that it's gone on 3 pages without anyone offering any substantive explainations from the atheistic viewpoint.
Umm, yeah, I'll second the comment "are you reading the same thread?" There have been several well thought out sources for morality provided (including my own). I can see where you may not agree with them given your flawed worldview (good natured ribbing here), but to say nothing of substance has been offered? No, not a fair assessment at all.
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Old 04-18-2012, 14:45   #62
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Originally Posted by CitizenOfDreams View Post
Are you asking what keeps non-religious people from doing things they consider immoral? Same reason that keeps people from eating spoiled food. We don't need to consult The Holy Cookbook to recognize stale bread.
.....Although stale bread makes great French Toast.
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Old 04-18-2012, 14:51   #63
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Originally Posted by cowboywannabe View Post
wait!!!

i like the biblical morality. having sex with women younger than my wife to bare my children, beating my slaves for being unruley, being crowned king of a part of land, being called wise for threatening to cut a bay in half to give two women each a part of it.....there is just so many good things in the bible that we dont do any more.....
Yeah. Take Lot for example.

Such a high minded, pious individual that Angels warned him to get the hades out of Sodom/Gomorrah before Yahweh smote 'em.

Before that, of course, he offered his two daughters to a mob to be gang raped so the mob would just go away and not bother him and the so-called Angels that were visiting him at the time.

And after he vamoosed out of town and his wife got the pillar of NaCl treatment, he got drunk enough to impregnate both of those self-same daughters.

To go by the example of Lot, the Bible teaches that Incest is Best and we should all obey the Bible by keeping it in the family. Family Way (?)



What was good enough for Lot is good enough for YOU!
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Old 04-18-2012, 15:09   #64
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Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post
I disagree, it isn't that at all, at least not based on what I remember from my philosophy class.
"Slave morality is created in opposition to what master morality values as 'good'. Slave morality does not aim at exerting one's will by strength but by careful subversion. It does not seek to transcend the masters, but to make them slaves as well. The essence of slave morality is utility:[5] the good is what is most useful for the whole community, not the strong. Nietzsche saw this as a contradiction. Since the powerful are few in number compared to the masses of the weak, the weak gain power by corrupting the strong into believing that the causes of slavery (viz., the will to power) are 'evil', as are the qualities they originally could not choose because of their weakness." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master%...slave_morality

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If you concede my answer is probably true, what does it matter if others assert a different position?
Because it may not be.
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Old 04-18-2012, 15:22   #65
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Umm, yeah, I'll second the comment "are you reading the same thread?" There have been several well thought out sources for morality provided (including my own).
Sure lot's of people have provided sources of morality but I don't think anyone answered the question/challenge I posed: "convince me I'm obligated to follow this thing you call morality."

Most said that morality is subjective, in which case I'm not obligated, and others flat out stated I'm not obligated. Some stated the obvious that it's in my best interest to adhere to social laws but that's not the same as being morally obligated; or if it is then talking in terms of 'morality' is pointless and confusing.

Who has made a case for me being obligated(morally) to any system of morality?

Is it simply that atheists haven't evolved beyond believing and speaking in terms of 'morality' yet?
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Old 04-18-2012, 15:48   #66
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Originally Posted by Norske View Post
Yeah. Take Lot for example.

Such a high minded, pious individual that Angels warned him to get the hades out of Sodom/Gomorrah before Yahweh smote 'em.

Before that, of course, he offered his two daughters to a mob to be gang raped so the mob would just go away and not bother him and the so-called Angels that were visiting him at the time.

And after he vamoosed out of town and his wife got the pillar of NaCl treatment, he got drunk enough to impregnate both of those self-same daughters.

To go by the example of Lot, the Bible teaches that Incest is Best and we should all obey the Bible by keeping it in the family. Family Way (?)



What was good enough for Lot is good enough for YOU!
Well, when you put it that way, it sounds bad.
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Old 04-18-2012, 15:54   #67
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Originally Posted by Harper View Post
Sure lot's of people have provided sources of morality but I don't think anyone answered the question/challenge I posed: "convince me I'm obligated to follow this thing you call morality."

Most said that morality is subjective, in which case I'm not obligated, and others flat out stated I'm not obligated. Some stated the obvious that it's in my best interest to adhere to social laws but that's not the same as being morally obligated; or if it is then talking in terms of 'morality' is pointless and confusing.

Who has made a case for me being obligated(morally) to any system of morality?

Is it simply that atheists haven't evolved beyond believing and speaking in terms of 'morality' yet?
If thats all you wanted, then you should already know the answer.

Self interest. That's the one thing we all act on. Every action we take is based on it.
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Old 04-18-2012, 16:24   #68
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Originally Posted by Lone Wolf8634 View Post
If thats all you wanted, then you should already know the answer.

Self interest. That's the one thing we all act on. Every action we take is based on it.
Why would atheists bother calling that morality? It entails no obligation to adhere to any morality. Are they ignorant or trying to be deceptive?
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Old 04-18-2012, 16:34   #69
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Originally Posted by Harper View Post
Why would atheists bother calling that morality? It entails no obligation to adhere to any morality. Are they ignorant or trying to be deceptive?
Why would you say that?

Self interest is the reason we do everything.

No moral code, including religion, entails an obligation to adhere to it.

You adhere to it because of self interest, enlightened self interest maybe, but still........
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Old 04-18-2012, 16:40   #70
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Originally Posted by Harper View Post
Most said that morality is subjective, in which case I'm not obligated, and others flat out stated I'm not obligated. Some stated the obvious that it's in my best interest to adhere to social laws but that's not the same as being morally obligated; or if it is then talking in terms of 'morality' is pointless and confusing.
You not being objectively obligated does not mean that there would not be consequences for violating a subjective morality.
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Old 04-18-2012, 16:45   #71
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Originally Posted by Lone Wolf8634 View Post
Why would you say that?

Self interest is the reason we do everything.

No moral code, including religion, entails an obligation to adhere to it.

You adhere to it because of self interest, enlightened self interest maybe, but still........
When you say "it" what specifically are you referring to? An objective morality?
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Old 04-18-2012, 16:50   #72
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Originally Posted by void * View Post
You not being objectively obligated does not mean that there would not be consequences for violating a subjective morality.
There are consequences for actions but you cannot violate someone else's subjective morality by definition. In other words it's not a moral violation (if morality is subjective) to not adhere to another's morality.

Last edited by Harper; 04-18-2012 at 18:10..
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Old 04-18-2012, 16:52   #73
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Originally Posted by Harper View Post
When you say "it" what specifically are you referring to? An objective morality?
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Originally Posted by Lone Wolf8634 View Post
No moral code,
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Old 04-18-2012, 17:30   #74
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Originally Posted by Harper View Post
Why would atheists bother calling that morality? It entails no obligation to adhere to any morality. Are they ignorant or trying to be deceptive?
You're trolling and playing word games. The question has been answered.

Where do morals (mores) come from.

Quote:
mo·res
plural noun Sociology .

Folkways of central importance accepted without question and embodying the fundamental moral views of a group.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mores?s=t
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Old 04-18-2012, 18:06   #75
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Originally Posted by Lone Wolf8634 View Post
No moral code, including religion, entails an obligation to adhere to it.
Yes, they do by definition.

Code - 1. A systematically arranged and comprehensive collection of laws.
2. A systematic collection of regulations and rules of procedure or conduct:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/code

Quote:
Among those who use “morality” normatively, all hold that “morality” refers to a code of conduct that applies to all who can understand it and can govern their behavior by it. In the normative sense, morality should never be overridden, that is, no one should ever violate a moral prohibition or requirement for non-moral considerations.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/

To clarify, by asking "convince me I'm obligated to follow this thing you call morality." I'm using using "morality" normatively.


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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
You're trolling and playing word games. The question has been answered.

Where do morals (mores) come from.
Nope, I didn't ask where they come from. I stated in the very first post where most atheists claim they come from.

Last edited by Harper; 04-18-2012 at 18:09..
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Old 04-18-2012, 18:23   #76
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Originally Posted by NMPOPS View Post
I do not require proof of God's existence, I choose not to believe. That's all I need. As for morals; I have good morals because I believe it's the right way to be. Simple as that. Seems to me that Christians are obsessed with proving Athiests wrong when they can't decide which Christian religion is right.
Actually, this one is obsessed with trying to bring you to the peace that passes all understanding, to having meaning in your life past your own self, and meeting your Savior that will give you an eternity of joy and perpetual study and exploration of all of creation.

When that is a possibility, what can a person possibly offer in exchange? You can't. It has been freely extended to you. All you have to do to begin the journey is accept that.
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Old 04-18-2012, 18:25   #77
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Originally Posted by Schabesbert View Post
I'd also like to point out that it's gone on 3 pages without anyone offering any substantive explainations from the atheistic viewpoint.

AG, maybe it would be fair to ask the OP to give his opinion after others have offered some legitimate explaination for their own?

Harper, I salute you. Alas, it seems that most here don't understand your argument at all. Paul's reference from Dr. Craig is spot-on.
To paraphrase George Carlin since he's so well liked around here I have as much [moral] authority as the pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.

I've posted my own morality here often enough that it should probably be in my signature, but here goes again just for reference... I strive to act with regard to the well-being (minimize suffering; maximize happiness) of others.

Pretty straight-forward, though I'm sure numerous dilemmas could be posed that would be challenging to answer.

Given that Harper has, so far, refused to weigh in with his beliefs, I'll just throw some preemptive issues out...

There are Christians here who regularly argue that without the morality of God/Bible, there is no objective, timeless morality. The blatant flaw with this is that God accepts owning slaves, and calls for putting to death homosexuals, witches, fortune tellers, adulterers, people who work on the sabbath, disrespectful children, children who strike or curse a parent, women who are not a virgin on their wedding night, (some) rape victims,...

There are not too many people that I'm aware of that still endorse these actions.

The question then becomes:
  • Were these actions moral in the past, and they're moral today?
  • Were they immoral in the past and immoral today?
  • Were they moral in the past, but something changed and they're immoral today?
Or is there some other explanation?

Given that we don't see an en masse endorsement of these activities today, it certainly seems to me that not even the morality of God/Bible is immutable, so why is it reasonable to expect that any other morality would be objective?

The morality of the Bible has been used to justify an assortment of mistreatments from the Spanish Inquisition to Fred Phelps and the Loons. Perhaps I just lack diabolical creativity, but I don't see how the simple morality that I outlined could be abused in a similar fashion.

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Old 04-18-2012, 18:33   #78
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Originally Posted by Harper View Post
Yes, they do by definition.

Code - 1. A systematically arranged and comprehensive collection of laws.
2. A systematic collection of regulations and rules of procedure or conduct:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/code


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/

To clarify, by asking "convince me I'm obligated to follow this thing you call morality." I'm using using "morality" normatively.




Nope, I didn't ask where they come from. I stated in the very first post where most atheists claim they come from.
I guess I'm just a bit thick today, because I'm failing to understand what you're wanting here.
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Old 04-18-2012, 18:48   #79
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Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
There are Christians here who regularly argue that without the morality of God/Bible, there is no objective, timeless morality. The blatant flaw with this is that God accepts owning slaves, and calls for putting to death homosexuals, witches, fortune tellers, adulterers, people who work on the sabbath, disrespectful children, children who strike or curse a parent, women who are not a virgin on their wedding night, (some) rape victims,...
This is a common concern and usually leads to Euthyphro's dilemma. I'm sure you're aware of it but if not, it basically says 'is it moral because God says so or does God say so because it's moral?' If God is real then by definition(Omnibenevolence being a defining characteristic) it's moral because he says so. So if God says owning slaves and rape is moral, then it is and that's just tough luck if you don't like it. That of course doesn't appeal to people and maybe the idea that there's an omnibenevolent, omnipotent,etc being is ridiculous but the reasoning is valid.

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Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
I've posted my own morality here often enough that it should probably be in my signature, but here goes again just for reference... I strive to act with regard to the well-being (minimize suffering; maximize happiness) of others.
That sounds like utilitariansim which is always to my knowledge an objective morality. There are other atheists like Ayn Rand who believe in an objective morality which is basically the opposite.
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Old 04-18-2012, 19:01   #80
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This is a common concern and usually leads to Euthyphro's dilemma. I'm sure you're aware of it but if not, it basically says 'is it moral because God says so or does God say so because it's moral?' If God is real then by definition(Omnibenevolence being a defining characteristic) it's moral because he says so. So if God says owning slaves and rape is moral, then it is and that's just tough luck if you don't like it. That of course doesn't appeal to people and maybe the idea that there's an omnibenevolent, omnipotent,etc being is ridiculous but the reasoning is valid.



That sounds like utilitariansim which is always to my knowledge an objective morality. There are other atheists like Ayn Rand who believe in an objective morality which is basically the opposite.
That sounds like a crappy version of morality.

That is because like the Atheist here keep telling y'all atheism only answers one question that is all. We don't have to share any other political or even scientific ideas at all.




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