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Old 04-18-2012, 00:48   #51
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I do not require proof of God's existence, I choose not to believe. That's all I need. As for morals; I have good morals because I believe it's the right way to be. Simple as that. Seems to me that Christians are obsessed with proving Athiests wrong when they can't decide which Christian religion is right.
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Old 04-18-2012, 00:51   #52
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wait!!!

i like the biblical morality. having sex with women younger than my wife to bare my children, beating my slaves for being unruley, being crowned king of a part of land, being called wise for threatening to cut a bay in half to give two women each a part of it.....there is just so many good things in the bible that we dont do any more.....
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Old 04-18-2012, 04:38   #53
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I do not require proof of God's existence, I choose not to believe. That's all I need. As for morals; I have good morals because I believe it's the right way to be. Simple as that. Seems to me that Christians are obsessed with proving Athiests wrong when they can't decide which Christian religion is right.
If you can "choose" what you believe, instead of having it dictated by evidence, you may as well become a christian.
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Old 04-18-2012, 07:07   #54
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NOT an atheist; but I am old enough and savvy enough to know better. The personal acquisition of individual morality requires an equally personal perception of distinct ideals - Ideals which are often greater than one's own self. Such awareness begins with the realization that all idealism possesses intrinsic value and is, therefore, useful. A certain individual ability for abstract reasoning is required, as well as an awareness of, both, personal behavior and resulting consequence.

Sadly, however, human morality is seldom universal, always fragmented, and frequently disagreed upon. It is well within the nature of man to behave immorally. There might even be a strong social preference for immoral behaviors. You can see evidence of this (and the incumbent personal foibles that are always attached thereto) posted on this forum all of the time.

Immoral people tend to live in the moment and disregard all future consequences to their present behaviors. In my opinion the very first thing a person has to do in order to be moral is to become consistently pained and frequently hurt often enough to know better than to rail at any real sense of, 'higher being' or stoop to gross self-service. (You know, kind 'a like a reformed alcoholic, sex fiend, or drug addict. I'm, also, reminded of the biblical admonition, 'The fear of God is the beginning of all wisdom.')

It isn't so much a matter of an individual, 'defending personal immorality'; instead, it's more about a person continuing to be self-indulgent and distracted enough by current circumstances not to allow himself to really give a damn. Gross or habitual self-indulgence is, then, immorality; and, immorality always, always, always serves its own ends; consequently, no real justification is ever required. Being immoral is just something someone does without any particular recognition of, or further regard for, future consequences.

In my own personal experience, once an individual steps out of, 'life in the present moment' a profound diminution of one's own self immediately occurs; and an acute awareness of higher ideals and their incumbent morality begins to appear; BUT, the first thing you've got to do is to get yourself out of the present moment. Only then can any real personal progress be made.

'Behold, I was born in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, Thou desirest Truth in the inward parts; and in the hidden part Thou shalt cause me to know wisdom.' (Psalm 51:5-6)




NOTE: To the OP. I suggest you read what I said again. These conclusions are the results of the work of an entire lifetime. I know the price I had to pay for this knowledge; and I very much doubt that you, or anyone else, is going to, 'get it' the first time around. Good luck!

Last edited by Arc Angel; 04-18-2012 at 07:19..
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Old 04-18-2012, 07:15   #55
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On the contrary it would show good faith (if you will) from somebody trying to facilitate a discussion of morality, but refusing to answer questions posed to him.

Why should people bother to answer your questions when you're unwilling to reciprocate?

-ArtificialGrape
The golden rule of discussion? It's quite ironic. I would like to point out it has gone three pages without me reciprocating. Maybe they shouldn't, maybe they have no real obligation to and the reason they seem to act altruistically is simply for selfish reasons. That's what I had already asked though, isn't it.
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Old 04-18-2012, 07:32   #56
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The above is an interesting exchange! Everything a person does is selfishly motivated - Everything. In the material realm there are no exceptions of which I am aware.
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Old 04-18-2012, 11:25   #57
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Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape
On the contrary it would show good faith (if you will) from somebody trying to facilitate a discussion of morality, but refusing to answer questions posed to him.

Why should people bother to answer your questions when you're unwilling to reciprocate?

-ArtificialGrape
The golden rule of discussion? It's quite ironic. I would like to point out it has gone three pages without me reciprocating. Maybe they shouldn't, maybe they have no real obligation to and the reason they seem to act altruistically is simply for selfish reasons. That's what I had already asked though, isn't it.
I'd also like to point out that it's gone on 3 pages without anyone offering any substantive explainations from the atheistic viewpoint.

AG, maybe it would be fair to ask the OP to give his opinion after others have offered some legitimate explaination for their own?

Harper, I salute you. Alas, it seems that most here don't understand your argument at all. Paul's reference from Dr. Craig is spot-on.
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Old 04-18-2012, 11:39   #58
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My parents taught me that there was a god. I love them, but they were mistaken.
I'm sure your parents would say the same of you.
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Old 04-18-2012, 14:17   #59
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I believe this is what Nietzsche referred to as 'Slave Morality'; where the weak seek safety in the herd. It's like moral collectivism.
I disagree, it isn't that at all, at least not based on what I remember from my philosophy class.
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Your answer is probably true, but there are quite a few atheists who believe in actual objective systems of morality. I figured someone would have argued for objectivism or utilitarianism... anything other than to accept we're just part of a herd. (Although utilitarianism is supportive of the herd, it's at least based on principle)
If you concede my answer is probably true, what does it matter if others assert a different position?
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Old 04-18-2012, 14:20   #60
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I'd also like to point out that it's gone on 3 pages without anyone offering any substantive explainations from the atheistic viewpoint.
Are you reading the same thread I am? I've seen a number of explanations offered.
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AG, maybe it would be fair to ask the OP to give his opinion after others have offered some legitimate explaination for their own?
Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what would qualify as "legitimate".
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Old 04-18-2012, 14:37   #61
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I'd also like to point out that it's gone on 3 pages without anyone offering any substantive explainations from the atheistic viewpoint.
Umm, yeah, I'll second the comment "are you reading the same thread?" There have been several well thought out sources for morality provided (including my own). I can see where you may not agree with them given your flawed worldview (good natured ribbing here), but to say nothing of substance has been offered? No, not a fair assessment at all.
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Old 04-18-2012, 14:45   #62
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Are you asking what keeps non-religious people from doing things they consider immoral? Same reason that keeps people from eating spoiled food. We don't need to consult The Holy Cookbook to recognize stale bread.
.....Although stale bread makes great French Toast.
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Old 04-18-2012, 14:51   #63
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wait!!!

i like the biblical morality. having sex with women younger than my wife to bare my children, beating my slaves for being unruley, being crowned king of a part of land, being called wise for threatening to cut a bay in half to give two women each a part of it.....there is just so many good things in the bible that we dont do any more.....
Yeah. Take Lot for example.

Such a high minded, pious individual that Angels warned him to get the hades out of Sodom/Gomorrah before Yahweh smote 'em.

Before that, of course, he offered his two daughters to a mob to be gang raped so the mob would just go away and not bother him and the so-called Angels that were visiting him at the time.

And after he vamoosed out of town and his wife got the pillar of NaCl treatment, he got drunk enough to impregnate both of those self-same daughters.

To go by the example of Lot, the Bible teaches that Incest is Best and we should all obey the Bible by keeping it in the family. Family Way (?)



What was good enough for Lot is good enough for YOU!
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Last edited by Norske; 04-18-2012 at 14:53..
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Old 04-18-2012, 15:09   #64
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I disagree, it isn't that at all, at least not based on what I remember from my philosophy class.
"Slave morality is created in opposition to what master morality values as 'good'. Slave morality does not aim at exerting one's will by strength but by careful subversion. It does not seek to transcend the masters, but to make them slaves as well. The essence of slave morality is utility:[5] the good is what is most useful for the whole community, not the strong. Nietzsche saw this as a contradiction. Since the powerful are few in number compared to the masses of the weak, the weak gain power by corrupting the strong into believing that the causes of slavery (viz., the will to power) are 'evil', as are the qualities they originally could not choose because of their weakness." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master%...slave_morality

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If you concede my answer is probably true, what does it matter if others assert a different position?
Because it may not be.
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Old 04-18-2012, 15:22   #65
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Umm, yeah, I'll second the comment "are you reading the same thread?" There have been several well thought out sources for morality provided (including my own).
Sure lot's of people have provided sources of morality but I don't think anyone answered the question/challenge I posed: "convince me I'm obligated to follow this thing you call morality."

Most said that morality is subjective, in which case I'm not obligated, and others flat out stated I'm not obligated. Some stated the obvious that it's in my best interest to adhere to social laws but that's not the same as being morally obligated; or if it is then talking in terms of 'morality' is pointless and confusing.

Who has made a case for me being obligated(morally) to any system of morality?

Is it simply that atheists haven't evolved beyond believing and speaking in terms of 'morality' yet?
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Old 04-18-2012, 15:48   #66
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Yeah. Take Lot for example.

Such a high minded, pious individual that Angels warned him to get the hades out of Sodom/Gomorrah before Yahweh smote 'em.

Before that, of course, he offered his two daughters to a mob to be gang raped so the mob would just go away and not bother him and the so-called Angels that were visiting him at the time.

And after he vamoosed out of town and his wife got the pillar of NaCl treatment, he got drunk enough to impregnate both of those self-same daughters.

To go by the example of Lot, the Bible teaches that Incest is Best and we should all obey the Bible by keeping it in the family. Family Way (?)



What was good enough for Lot is good enough for YOU!
Well, when you put it that way, it sounds bad.
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Old 04-18-2012, 15:54   #67
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Sure lot's of people have provided sources of morality but I don't think anyone answered the question/challenge I posed: "convince me I'm obligated to follow this thing you call morality."

Most said that morality is subjective, in which case I'm not obligated, and others flat out stated I'm not obligated. Some stated the obvious that it's in my best interest to adhere to social laws but that's not the same as being morally obligated; or if it is then talking in terms of 'morality' is pointless and confusing.

Who has made a case for me being obligated(morally) to any system of morality?

Is it simply that atheists haven't evolved beyond believing and speaking in terms of 'morality' yet?
If thats all you wanted, then you should already know the answer.

Self interest. That's the one thing we all act on. Every action we take is based on it.
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Old 04-18-2012, 16:24   #68
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If thats all you wanted, then you should already know the answer.

Self interest. That's the one thing we all act on. Every action we take is based on it.
Why would atheists bother calling that morality? It entails no obligation to adhere to any morality. Are they ignorant or trying to be deceptive?
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Old 04-18-2012, 16:34   #69
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Why would atheists bother calling that morality? It entails no obligation to adhere to any morality. Are they ignorant or trying to be deceptive?
Why would you say that?

Self interest is the reason we do everything.

No moral code, including religion, entails an obligation to adhere to it.

You adhere to it because of self interest, enlightened self interest maybe, but still........
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Old 04-18-2012, 16:40   #70
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Originally Posted by Harper View Post
Most said that morality is subjective, in which case I'm not obligated, and others flat out stated I'm not obligated. Some stated the obvious that it's in my best interest to adhere to social laws but that's not the same as being morally obligated; or if it is then talking in terms of 'morality' is pointless and confusing.
You not being objectively obligated does not mean that there would not be consequences for violating a subjective morality.
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Old 04-18-2012, 16:45   #71
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Why would you say that?

Self interest is the reason we do everything.

No moral code, including religion, entails an obligation to adhere to it.

You adhere to it because of self interest, enlightened self interest maybe, but still........
When you say "it" what specifically are you referring to? An objective morality?
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Old 04-18-2012, 16:50   #72
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You not being objectively obligated does not mean that there would not be consequences for violating a subjective morality.
There are consequences for actions but you cannot violate someone else's subjective morality by definition. In other words it's not a moral violation (if morality is subjective) to not adhere to another's morality.

Last edited by Harper; 04-18-2012 at 18:10..
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Old 04-18-2012, 16:52   #73
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When you say "it" what specifically are you referring to? An objective morality?
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No moral code,
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Old 04-18-2012, 17:30   #74
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Why would atheists bother calling that morality? It entails no obligation to adhere to any morality. Are they ignorant or trying to be deceptive?
You're trolling and playing word games. The question has been answered.

Where do morals (mores) come from.

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mo·res
plural noun Sociology .

Folkways of central importance accepted without question and embodying the fundamental moral views of a group.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mores?s=t
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Old 04-18-2012, 18:06   #75
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No moral code, including religion, entails an obligation to adhere to it.
Yes, they do by definition.

Code - 1. A systematically arranged and comprehensive collection of laws.
2. A systematic collection of regulations and rules of procedure or conduct:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/code

Quote:
Among those who use “morality” normatively, all hold that “morality” refers to a code of conduct that applies to all who can understand it and can govern their behavior by it. In the normative sense, morality should never be overridden, that is, no one should ever violate a moral prohibition or requirement for non-moral considerations.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/

To clarify, by asking "convince me I'm obligated to follow this thing you call morality." I'm using using "morality" normatively.


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You're trolling and playing word games. The question has been answered.

Where do morals (mores) come from.
Nope, I didn't ask where they come from. I stated in the very first post where most atheists claim they come from.

Last edited by Harper; 04-18-2012 at 18:09..
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