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Old 04-18-2012, 14:42   #81
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Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post

I wouldn't think you would have more than an inch of difference between one round and another at such a short range. The only thing that makes a bullet drop is gravity and it just doesn't have enough time in 15 yards to make much of a difference.

As a wild example: a 230 gr bullet shot to 15 yards with a zero at 1 yard (because Sierra V6 won't accept a 0 yard zero) at 500 fps (VERY slow) will drop 1.47" while at 1000 fps (VERY fast for a 45) will drop only 0.37". That's an extreme example where the difference is 1.1". For the condition of, say, 700 fps versus 850 fps, the difference is only 1/4". Heck, I can't even shoot that good!

You are probably right, though I've seen pretty big differences from one load to another (though one was drastically underpowered to the point of being dangerous - oops). That could be the load or it could be the squishy thing pulling the trigger and aiming the gun. I haven't bench tested it yet. My point remains that if you build the load you can tailor it to your gun and what it likes and keep it consistent.

I may also be exaggerating the amount the gun is off but it's more than a couple of inches.

I use batch processing (usually batches around 50) and do fairly well but only shoot around 100-200 rounds per session. I do use the Hornaday Lock-and-load system which makes die changes very fast.

Last edited by SC Tiger; 04-18-2012 at 14:53..
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Old 04-18-2012, 15:03   #82
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You are probably right, though I've seen pretty big differences from one load to another (though one was drastically underpowered to the point of being dangerous - oops). That could be the load or it could be the squishy thing pulling the trigger and aiming the gun. I haven't bench tested it yet. My point remains that if you build the load you can tailor it to your gun and what it likes and keep it consistent.
When my shots go low, it is ALWAYS my fault. I just have trouble keeping my focus on the front sight while I squeeze the trigger. But it is ALWAYS my fault. My guns and my reloads will always shoot better than me.

You are right, building your own loads is the big plus. I don't necessarily want to shoot full power loads. It's hard on the gun and it's hard on me. My loads make 'major' power factor and that's enough. The recoil is modest, the firing impulse seems lighter and I just like shooting them.

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I use batch processing (usually batches around 50) and do fairly well but only shoot around 100-200 rounds per session. I do use the Hornaday Lock-and-load system which makes die changes very fast.
All I really wanted to point out is that if it is financially possible, buy enough press. As Jack said, sometimes it isn't feasible. In the early days when I was buying 550s, it just wasn't possible to buy a 650 or a 1050. It was the best I could do at the time. Looking back, perhaps I should have come up with another solution.

Or, perhaps the difference in machine cost will buy another firearm. Buy the gun and spend more time reloading versus don't buy the gun and get a better press. Tough choice!

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Old 04-18-2012, 18:41   #83
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If you only shoot 100rds a week, you do not NEED a progressive. Nice to have but you can get by w/ a ss press or turret. When you get into 300rds a week, it's progressive time IMO. That is an easy 1hr on a 550B or LNL, 30min or less on a 650. Nice when you work 10hr days.
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Old 04-18-2012, 18:46   #84
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LCT. That is the answer.
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Old 04-18-2012, 21:31   #85
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I did a lot of calculations trying to figure out what it costs to reload and how long it would take me to cover the cost of my Dillon press............ I've been reloading now for a couple of years now and stopped doing the calculations. Generally speaking, you can reload common handgun calibers (38spl, 9mm, 40sw, 45acp) for about 1/2 the cost of factory ammunition. I like old west guns and have a few 45 Colt revolvers (also plan to buy a lever gun in the same caliiber) and my brother reloads for his 44mag. To buy 100 45 Colt cartridges (cowboy loads) costs about $75...... I load mine for about $25 per hundred. For larger and more exotic calibers the savings is even greater. But like others have said, cost is only one element of reloading. It can be relaxing once you get everything set up and working properly and you can finetune your load to meet your personal goals (i.e., most accurate load, replicate you carry load, etc.) It's a great hobby.......
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Old 04-18-2012, 21:34   #86
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http://www.handloads.com/calc/loadingCosts.asp
Read the stickies at the top of the page for supply's
I cast my own bullets so I'm out $23 a thousand on primers and $24 for a pound of powder to load 1000 rounds, and I still have powder left over.
Buy in bulk and you will save $
I have plenty brass and you can reload it many times so I don't even figure it in being most of it was free.
Been savin your brass, if not you can find once fired brass pretty cheap.

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Bob, where are you finding primers for $23 per hundred??? Seems the best I can do is $29 for either small or large pistol..............
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Old 04-18-2012, 23:14   #87
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Bob, where are you finding primers for $23 per hundred??? Seems the best I can do is $29 for either small or large pistol..............
Depends on brand & how much you buy. Tula/Wolf are cheap. I bought some S&B from Graf's for $99/5K, ordered 20K & split em, total was under $21.50/K to my door.
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Old 04-18-2012, 23:28   #88
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Bob, where are you finding primers for $23 per hundred??? Seems the best I can do is $29 for either small or large pistol..............

Early 2008. All you gotta do is go back in time.
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Old 04-19-2012, 07:22   #89
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When my shots go low, it is ALWAYS my fault. I just have trouble keeping my focus on the front sight while I squeeze the trigger. But it is ALWAYS my fault. My guns and my reloads will always shoot better than me.

You are right, building your own loads is the big plus. I don't necessarily want to shoot full power loads. It's hard on the gun and it's hard on me. My loads make 'major' power factor and that's enough. The recoil is modest, the firing impulse seems lighter and I just like shooting them.



All I really wanted to point out is that if it is financially possible, buy enough press. As Jack said, sometimes it isn't feasible. In the early days when I was buying 550s, it just wasn't possible to buy a 650 or a 1050. It was the best I could do at the time. Looking back, perhaps I should have come up with another solution.

Or, perhaps the difference in machine cost will buy another firearm. Buy the gun and spend more time reloading versus don't buy the gun and get a better press. Tough choice!

Richard
Very possible that the low-shooting gun is my fault - I need to investigate it with a bench rest to see though. I tend to shoot low with my Glock if I've shot my Smith first. There are light years of difference between the quality of the trigger pulls. If I'm going to take a file to that gun (if it bench rest tests low) I'm definitely going to make sure I know what the load is and that I like it. It may only make 1" of difference but I'll know it's there. I just can't see adjusting my sights to WWB.

I see your points about getting a bigger (progressive or turret) press but I'm not sure that is the way to go for beginners - especially if they can find a good used single-stage press. It would be too tempting to automate things too quickly and blow yourself up. My beginner setup was about $200, and most of that (the scale, the loading block, and the other small parts) would be usable even with a larger press. Difference in viewpoints I guess.
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Old 04-19-2012, 08:40   #90
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Let me see if I have this straight. Does this theory & scenerio sound correct?

1. In order to take real advantage of the benefits of reloading and lower my cost per round, I need to buy all of my supplies in bulk as opposed to small quantities.

2. If I buy larger quantities I need to reload more.

3. If I reload more, it means I must shoot more to use up the ammo that I reloaded.

4. If I need to shoot more, I need more time to shoot.

5. If I need more time to shoot, I need to work less hours per week at my job.

6. If I work less hours at my job and make excuses for not being able to work I could lose my job.

7. If I lose my job because I am taking time off to shoot my wife will get pissed off at me.

8. If my wife gets angry enough at me she may file for divorce.

9. If my wife files for divorce it means I will have to hire an attorney, which will cost me money.

10. If I have to pay an attorney to represent me during the divorce it will take away from the money that I have available to buy reloading supplies in bulk.

The end result is that I'm back where I started, buying supplies in small quantities. But, I have no home (ex-wife got it). I have no job. I'm living in a small apartment and paying rent, which I previously did not have to do (house paid off).

I think that for the time being I will continue to buy in smaller quanties even though I am not savings as much per round compared to buying supplies in larger quantities.

Is there a flaw in my scenerio/theory? What have I missed? Did I leave out any steps in the senerio?
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Old 04-19-2012, 08:47   #91
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I think you have captured the essence of the problem.

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Old 04-19-2012, 08:58   #92
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LOL...

Other than #2, you hit the nail on the head. Components don't expire. Don't listen to Jack when he says he's willing to take your expired brass off your hands for free.

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Old 04-19-2012, 09:00   #93
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To be fair my marriage was going south way before I started reloading. I just didn't know it. So you may want to move 7-9 farther up the list.
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:04   #94
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Originally Posted by CaptainXL View Post
Let me see if I have this straight. Does this theory & scenerio sound correct?

1. In order to take real advantage of the benefits of reloading and lower my cost per round, I need to buy all of my supplies in bulk as opposed to small quantities.

2. If I buy larger quantities I need to reload more.

3. If I reload more, it means I must shoot more to use up the ammo that I reloaded.

4. If I need to shoot more, I need more time to shoot.

5. If I need more time to shoot, I need to work less hours per week at my job.

6. If I work less hours at my job and make excuses for not being able to work I could lose my job.

7. If I lose my job because I am taking time off to shoot my wife will get pissed off at me.

8. If my wife gets angry enough at me she may file for divorce.

9. If my wife files for divorce it means I will have to hire an attorney, which will cost me money.

10. If I have to pay an attorney to represent me during the divorce it will take away from the money that I have available to buy reloading supplies in bulk.

The end result is that I'm back where I started, buying supplies in small quantities. But, I have no home (ex-wife got it). I have no job. I'm living in a small apartment and paying rent, which I previously did not have to do (house paid off).

I think that for the time being I will continue to buy in smaller quanties even though I am not savings as much per round compared to buying supplies in larger quantities.

Is there a flaw in my scenerio/theory? What have I missed? Did I leave out any steps in the senerio?

That's pretty much how it worked out for me... several times.

Divorce may be expensive but it's worth every penny.


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Old 04-19-2012, 11:54   #95
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Man, you divorced fellas can depress a happily married man.
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Old 04-19-2012, 12:02   #96
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Always a good choice for starting out, buy small quantities then once you have found a powder you like, order on line & pay the HM for an 8# jug & 10K primers. You easily save over buying small amounts locally.
What does that 8lb keg of powder end up costing say if you split the shipping between the powder and primers.

I can get powder for $15 lb locally at a shop that does a lot of reloading business.
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Old 04-19-2012, 12:47   #97
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What does that 8lb keg of powder end up costing say if you split the shipping between the powder and primers.

I can get powder for $15 lb locally at a shop that does a lot of reloading business.

I buy Bullseye locally for $22.99 per pound or $183.92 + $14.71 tax or $198.63. Call it $200 for 8#. It's $102 for an 8# keg from Powder Valley plus shipping and $27.50 Haz Mat. So then you add 10,000 primers to the order to spread that Haz Mat fee. Call it $150 and you pocket $50 on just the powder.

Locally, Federal 150 primers are about $36/1000 plus tax or about $39. They're $26/1000 at Powder Valley plus shipping. The difference in 10,000 primers is $130 and you can buy a lot of shipping for $130. You probably clear $100 or more on the transaction.

But the online thing only makes sense if you plan to buy a LOT of powder and primers. Another option is to add a 1# can of that other powder you have wanted to try. In fact, add several because you have already accounted for the Haz Mat fee. This is the time to get all the oddball powders you have been reading about.

If you want to experiment with Vihtavuori powders, expensive as they are, this is the opportunity!

Richard
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Last edited by F106 Fan; 04-19-2012 at 14:44..
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Old 04-19-2012, 13:26   #98
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Originally Posted by CaptainXL View Post
Let me see if I have this straight. Does this theory & scenerio sound correct?

1. In order to take real advantage of the benefits of reloading and lower my cost per round, I need to buy all of my supplies in bulk as opposed to small quantities.

2. If I buy larger quantities I need to reload more.

3. If I reload more, it means I must shoot more to use up the ammo that I reloaded.

4. If I need to shoot more, I need more time to shoot.

5. If I need more time to shoot, I need to work less hours per week at my job.

6. If I work less hours at my job and make excuses for not being able to work I could lose my job.

7. If I lose my job because I am taking time off to shoot my wife will get pissed off at me.

8. If my wife gets angry enough at me she may file for divorce.

9. If my wife files for divorce it means I will have to hire an attorney, which will cost me money.

10. If I have to pay an attorney to represent me during the divorce it will take away from the money that I have available to buy reloading supplies in bulk.

The end result is that I'm back where I started, buying supplies in small quantities. But, I have no home (ex-wife got it). I have no job. I'm living in a small apartment and paying rent, which I previously did not have to do (house paid off).

I think that for the time being I will continue to buy in smaller quanties even though I am not savings as much per round compared to buying supplies in larger quantities.

Is there a flaw in my scenerio/theory? What have I missed? Did I leave out any steps in the senerio?
I suppose that is one way to look at it. Here is another. The equip cost goes up every year. The component cost goes up every year. Ammo cost goes up every year. Regardless of how much you shoot, the cost of the ammo will still be cheapr than buying factory over the same period of time. If you only shoot 100rds a month, I probably wouldn't reload.
There have been times where I didn't shoot at all in a month, doesn't take away from the savings I get from reloading in the future. Example; I bought a bunch of primers back in the CLinton era shortage, about $10/k RETAIL. I just used up the last box about the first of the year. So while primers are now around $25/K, I am still shooting cheaper, a lot cheaper. Going forward, things could get a lot worse or a little better. I would bet a lot worse. So look at reloading & buying in bulk as a hedge against inflation or bad economic times or the end of the world if you are a prepper.
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Last edited by fredj338; 04-19-2012 at 13:28..
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Old 04-19-2012, 16:59   #99
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I buy Bullseye locally for $22.99 per pound or $183.92 + $14.71 tax or $198.63. Call it $200 for 8#. It's $102 for an 8# keg from Powder Valley plus shipping and $27.50 Haz Mat. So then you add 10,000 primers to the order to spread that Haz Mat fee. Call it $150 and you pocket $50 on just the powder.

Locally, Federal 150 primers are about $36/1000 plus tax or about $39. They're $26/1000 at Powder Valley plus shipping. The difference in 10,000 primers is $130 and you can buy a lot of shipping for $130. You probably clear $100 or more on the transaction.

But the online thing only makes sense if you plan to buy a LOT of powder and primers. Another option is to add a 1# can of that other powder you have wanted to try. In fact, add several because you have already accounted for the Haz Mat fee. This is the time to get all the oddball powders you have been reading about.

If you want to experiment with Vihtavuori powders, expensive as they are, this is the opportunity!

Richard
I appreciate the price breakdown.

I don't think it will really pay me to order over the net for power and primers as the quanity wouldn't be there.

I'm getting Alliant powder for $15 1lb and CCI primers for $30 per 1000 and the Federal are $29 per 1000 at a local shop. The shop goes through a lot of reloading components and orders large quanities at a time so he can keep the prices lower than most. They even stock some of the harder to get powders like Vihtavuori.
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Old 04-19-2012, 18:15   #100
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I don't see what the big deal is between single stage and progressive presses.
I started off on an RCBS single stage, then went to a Dillon 450, and now have a 650.
If the OP starts off with a single stage press, he will be able to use all of the accessories (dies, scale, tumbler, micrometer, bench stool etc.), if he decides to move up to a progressive press.
It certainly doesn't hurt to learn on a single stage press, and most likely the OP will make mistakes learning on either press.
If the OP has a friend who reloads, it would be a good idea to watch him do it, regardless of what kind of press he has. Both single stage and progressive presses have to perform the same functions (for the most part), so watching the process with an experienced friend would be a big help.
I don't see the harm in starting off with a progressive press, other than the fact that the press itself can be more complex to learn, set up and maintain. And (like others have said) it does allow the operator to make bulk mistakes quickly.
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