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Old 04-17-2012, 21:28   #101
Chris Brines
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Weapon handling skills are obviously important, but I’m as interested (if not more) in the skills necessary to prevent my need to bring that weapon into play while achieving the same results, getting home safe.



.
Wow, you sure are better at wording things than I am. That is the exact point I have been trying to get across to a group of my not so open minded friends for quite some time now. Not sure if I am wording it wrong or what, but I have been accused of being a liberal, advocating gun control, and everything in between, just by trying to stress that point. One guy just could not grasp why I was saying I would have acted differently if I was Zimmerman.

Whether or not you feel that a street thug (or someone you think may be) should be shot has nothing to do with it. Believe me, my opinions on how thug trash should be dealt with and how I'd actually deal with it in a real life situation...differ to say the least. That's an issue that is completely beyond the scope of this entire forum though lol.....the issue of how I think thugs, gangsters, and other such garbage SHOULD be dealt with.

I'm more concerned with what IS rather than what SHOULD BE, though, and I'm sure some people believe Zimmerman should not be sitting in jail. The fact is, he is, and doesn't know if he'll ever get out...and whats worse..if he gets out he has a pretty good majority of the country (one sided liberals as they may be, but still), wanting his head on a platter...because of a situation he could have possibly avoided by just staying in his house until the UNIFORMED authorities with BADGES (the other half to the combo that gives cops their power, it's more than just the gun...) showed up.

Whether he was justified or not just doesn't even matter to him at this point. If he had just stopped and thought it through, he may be sitting on his couch drinking beer and stuffing a pizza down his face right now, and chatting it up on GlockTalk...but look where he is....all I can say is this was not an unavoidable situation and it looks like a living nightmare to me...
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Old 04-17-2012, 21:30   #102
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I don't think it should be required at all.

However I do believe everyone should get training. But I do realize it can be hard to get training both because of cost and location.

Being in South Florida makes it difficult to get out to classes. There isn't many around here.
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Old 04-17-2012, 21:32   #103
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I think this is where a lot of people get over confident in their skills when dealing with deadly force encounters.

There is so much more to a deadly force encounter than simply placing the bullets on target. I read threads/posts very often that frankly scare me due to the posters lack of knowledge of self defense and basic laws - yet they may be the best shooter in the world.

We've discussed tactics in threads before in Carry Issues on what to do immediately (seconds) after a shooting. I had several GT members who claim to be great shooters tell me they would do VERY dangerous actions. One poster even said after he fired, he would pull out his camera to record the area to show the shooter had a gun in his hand. If the shooter still has a gun in his hand, not a good idea to walk up with a camera. Basic things were clearly lacking such as taking cover and concealment, keeping eye on target and weapon ready, how to respond when police arrive, verbal commands, etc.

Too many people think this will be like the movies. You can be a regular at your range. You can be a competition shooter that does barrel rolls while hitting the 10 ring over and over. It doesn't mean that you understand the laws that empower you to use deadly force nor does it give you the experience and ability to remain calm to make those correct decisions.
Those are the kinds of things we need to learn, to the point it can be brought to the forefront of our conscious working memory under severe stress and an adrenaline overload.
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Old 04-17-2012, 22:05   #104
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Originally Posted by Chris Brines View Post
Wow, you sure are better at wording things than I am. That is the exact point I have been trying to get across to a group of my not so open minded friends for quite some time now. Not sure if I am wording it wrong or what, but I have been accused of being a liberal, advocating gun control, and everything in between, just by trying to stress that point. One guy just could not grasp why I was saying I would have acted differently if I was Zimmerman.

Whether or not you feel that a street thug (or someone you think may be) should be shot has nothing to do with it. Believe me, my opinions on how thug trash should be dealt with and how I'd actually deal with it in a real life situation...differ to say the least. That's an issue that is completely beyond the scope of this entire forum though lol.....the issue of how I think thugs, gangsters, and other such garbage SHOULD be dealt with.

I'm more concerned with what IS rather than what SHOULD BE, though, and I'm sure some people believe Zimmerman should not be sitting in jail. The fact is, he is, and doesn't know if he'll ever get out...and whats worse..if he gets out he has a pretty good majority of the country (one sided liberals as they may be, but still), wanting his head on a platter...because of a situation he could have possibly avoided by just staying in his house until the UNIFORMED authorities with BADGES (the other half to the combo that gives cops their power, it's more than just the gun...) showed up.

Whether he was justified or not just doesn't even matter to him at this point. If he had just stopped and thought it through, he may be sitting on his couch drinking beer and stuffing a pizza down his face right now, and chatting it up on GlockTalk...but look where he is....all I can say is this was not an unavoidable situation and it looks like a living nightmare to me...
We need to understand that not everyone is wired the same. There are people out there who truly believe it their duty to protect and defend the innocent and the frail. That is a character trait you see present in those individuals when they are children. They’ll be not only the ones causing no harm to those they wish to protect but stepping in front of anyone that poses a threat to that person. They go around rescuing injured animals bring them home and try to nurture them back to health. They have this uncontrollable need to save and protect. Not all grow up to fulfill their true calling, but those traits remain with them, it is part of who they are.

There will be many news stories you read in this forum and others were you’ll be able to immediately say “I wouldn’t have done that!” In many cases it involves what some may view as reckless, dangerous and at times illogical. But it is those things only for those of us who think differently. If it weren’t for all those different personality traits and personal needs of fulfillment, we wouldn’t have people willing to do many of the jobs out there. We need all those people, without them we wouldn’t have soldiers, police officers, firemen, doctors and just about every other profession out there.

Some of us are a lot less patient and a lot more selfish; we contribute to society as well, but in our own way. We often seek professions and jobs where there is substantially lower risk, more comfort and often higher pay. Our sacrifices may be fewer but we aren’t bad people either.

The one thing none of us can do is take others for granted, without those people willing to risk their safety and wellbeing the rest of us would be in one heck of a pickle and many of us wouldn’t last long. To them we owe much, ever so often we should take the time to thank them and let them know we appreciate what they do.

I don’t know if Zimmerman is one of those and he lacked the knowledge and training to properly handle the situation he found himself in. There is little doubt in my mind that he handled the whole thing wrong and a tragedy resulted from it, but I can’t chastise the man beyond that without knowing his true intentions.

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Old 04-17-2012, 22:26   #105
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I don't think it should be required at all.

However I do believe everyone should get training. But I do realize it can be hard to get training both because of cost and location.

Being in South Florida makes it difficult to get out to classes. There isn't many around here.
There are many talented and experienced trainers in Florida. I can personally recommend:

William Farrugia
Lead Instructor
The Executive Solution, Training Division
www.floridafirearmstraining.com
www.theexecutivesolution.com
will@floridafirearmstraining.com

We (the oldest of my boys and I) have taken some of his advanced pistol training courses and believe he is magnificent! We live in Miami (near Kendall), his classes are held in Okeechobee, FL, one heck of a drive for us and well worth it.

We save money for those classes and consider it as it was a vacation. Save a few dollars a week and you’ll see how quickly those add up, since I go with one of my kids, it makes it even more fun!

We're also extremely fortunate in having met a group of experienced shooters at the range when we started. One of them is in the military; his marksmanship is beyond anything I can possibly describe in words. He took us under his wing and has taught us more than we could have ever expected. He also exposed us to the private range section in Trail Glades where we can draw and shoot as well as shoot through scenarios. Our debt to him cannot ever be paid.

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Old 04-17-2012, 22:45   #106
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thanks.... I'll check it out...
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Old 04-17-2012, 23:03   #107
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I don’t know if Zimmerman is one of those and he lacked the knowledge and training to properly handle the situation he found himself in. There is little doubt in my mind that he handled the whole thing wrong and a tragedy resulted from it, but I can’t chastise the man beyond that without knowing his true intentions.

.
I agree 100%. I've had this discussion several times in the last month, and one guy got all bent out of shape because I said Zimmerman should have just stayed in his house, secured his own property, and waited for police. He was not in uniform (wasn't even a cop), had no way of identifying himself as anything but some strange guy following the kid, and had several opportunities to remove himself from the situation but didn't.

The thing is, idk about most people, but if I am in the safety and security of my own home, and I feel I need to grab my gun to leave MY PROPERTY to go check something out elsewhere, it will already be a life or death crisis situation in progress, or else I would stay in my house. If it is a situation risky enough that I feel I need my gun to even approach the situation, then I would start asking myself, "is this REALLY necessary?"....well unless someone's life is in immediate danger then that answer would be no. And I'd have stayed put. That wasn't the case, and I think if a uniformed officer had approached Trayvon, he wouldn't have punched him in the face.

That's the thing, Zimmerman had no authority to apprehend Trayvon to begin with, so he overstepped his bounds almost immediately. I believe that encouraging training should become more commonplace WITHIN THE GUN OWNING COMMUNITY. It is something experienced shooters, CCW people should encourage of newcomers. That is how you keep the gov't off your back, by being accountability for your own actions, or the actions of your like minded community. Another thing that obviously needs to be more clearly defined is where the Neighborhood Watch guy's job stops, and where the Police's job begins.

Not defending or taking sides in this case, I have said Zimmerman is guilty of HORRIBLE judgement since day one, but I'm just saying, I think sometimes people are quick to grab their gun and may not stop and think about the consequences as often as they should. Alot of people truly do not think about the aftermath, and the fact that whether you were right or wrong, you will have alot of loudmouth anti gun lunatics calling you a murderer. That would only be the start of your problems. I sometimes think that people don't truly realize what shooting someone in self defense carries...it is something that should be avoided at all costs. Once your life is in danger, all bets are off. But idk about everyone else, I have never to this day been in a situation where I felt threatened enough that I would have pulled a trigger in self defense. What drove me to get my CHL is the fact that I have narrowly missed the misfortune of being a witness to, and/or an innocent bystander of at least 2 homicides in my city, and one attempted. The attempted happened in my apartment complex parking garage, 15 minutes after I left for work.

So yeah, I'd definitely like the freedom to have a choice on whether or not I want to bring my Glock 26 with me or not, but I am not and will never be one of these vigilante types inserting myself into situations that could have dire consequences for the rest of my life. I like my normal, every day life the way it is, and it would be a nightmare to end up in a situation where it could be compromised, even if I were 100% justified.

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Old 04-18-2012, 13:03   #108
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So

should all driving tests be conducted at night during rainstorms?
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Old 04-18-2012, 14:28   #109
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That's the thing, Zimmerman had no authority to apprehend Trayvon to begin with, so he overstepped his bounds almost immediately.
Where has it been reported he tried "to apprehend Trayvon"?
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Old 04-21-2012, 21:34   #110
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In the article they mention the shooting of Bo Morrison. Here is a link to an article about that. Party, call to police preceded fatal shooting in Slinger
That article is very informative. Haven't there been a number of cases in the US where drunks try and break in or bang on doors and get shot in the past few years? The cops described the kids as being disrespectful which is probably accurate to a tee.
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Old 04-21-2012, 21:36   #111
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Where has it been reported he tried "to apprehend Trayvon"?
It hasn't been reported anywhere. From what I have read Zimmerman was following the suspicious person so the police could intervene and know where to find the person. That seems reasonable to me. Zimmerman actually did help from what I have read.
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Old 04-21-2012, 21:47   #112
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In the linked article the author cites the two disorderly conduct charges against Jesus Gonzalez and the fact that he was not charged.

HOWEVER, he does not mention that Jesus shot two men, killing one. The author did not mention that Jesus claimed self defense. He did not mention that defense failed and he was convicted. He did not meet the standards for a self defense shooting. In other words, the law worked as it should.

No mention of that...
You are right. I remember that shooting in the news. Gonzalez really messed his life up by his actions. The system worked in that case. It does mention that Gonzalez did not testify on his own behalf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_C._Gonzalez
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Old 04-21-2012, 23:49   #113
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TBO
Why they don't even provide LEO's with enough training! So why should civies be held to a higher standard? When they make cops train every week and twice on sundays then the can complain about us! I shoot two to three times a week. LEO's are required to train how many times a year if at all?
Gunnut, I also did an "unofficial poll" and most people on the internet do not realize, understand, or know that LEOs are civies (i.e., civilians) too. Jus sayin...
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Old 04-22-2012, 00:11   #114
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In the interest of full disclosure: I really can't wrap my head around a person not growing up with gun safety as part of life. The topic is so common around here or other gun boards. I honestly find it hard to think about someone reaching the age of 21 (e.g., able to legally buy and own a revolver/pistol here in Florida) and not already knowing the four primary gun rules, but also being experienced with gun safety while out hunting or at the very plinking at the range.


All things being equal, then training should start at home! Period.

Lacking this particular experience:

Hopefully one will get training when entering the military.

Lacking this particular experience:

I guess, yes, if one is going to own a gun, then one should get training, but personally, I'm in the camp of the zero/less experienced persons getting a revolver as/for their first SD gun.

Even so, the training mentioned should NEVER be a prerequisite for owning or having a gun in the home and at the ready for SD purposes. (I'm also in the camp that those persons only knowing the difference between the actual business end of a gun and where the trigger is are better off having a gun in case the SHTF in their own home. Any person with a capable weapon, regardless of their level of training, is better than having nothing available to protect self or family members, IMHO.)

Honestly, and this may seem hypocritical to some, but I would not recommend a Glock to someone who doesn't have some experience with handling firearms; however, if there were no other choice or option, I would let someone, WHICH I KNEW PERSONALLY, borrow one of my Glocks if they believe their life was potentially at danger when staying at their home. Simply put, people deserve the right to protect themselves regardless of the level of professional training they receive, but it is a great idea to get all the training/experience you can get!
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Old 04-22-2012, 00:49   #115
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Gunnut, I also did an "unofficial poll" and most people on the internet do not realize, understand, or know that LEOs are civies (i.e., civilians) too. Jus sayin...
His use of the word is fine - accepted in major dictionaries. This is Merriam-webster.

http://i.word.com/idictionary/civilian
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Old 04-22-2012, 01:45   #116
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His use of the word is fine - accepted in major dictionaries. This is Merriam-webster.

http://i.word.com/idictionary/civilian
Please forgive me. What was i thinking.
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Old 04-22-2012, 08:03   #117
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Training

Last month I attended a state required concealed carry class. While the presentation of the legal aspects was excellent, the actual shooting part of the class left me.............surprised.

The shooting portion was done on a "reduced B-27 target to be fired at 50 feet". You must place your shots in the 10 X 7 "7" ring of the target.

People showed up with guns they'd just bought and never fired. Some had never fired a hand gun before. Some had been given a gun by a family member to use and while they had been shown how to load and fire it there was no way they were going to hold onto that snub nose .357 magnum. One person showed up with a Bersa 380 they'd just bought and couldn't keep 5 shots in a in the target zone at 3 yards. Another showed up with some type of double action auto she couldn't even pull the trigger on and I mean at ALL. No movement of the trigger. Instructor had no problem. Shooter just couldn't do it.

People who obviously weren't capable of shooting what they brought were loaned guns, mostly .22 rimfires which they still were not comfortable with, not through lack of familiarity with the gun but, just shooting in general.

They state requires that of the 40 rounds fired in the test 28 have to hit in the required zone. Some just barely got there and the missed shots were all over the paper. I myseif had 2 shots between the 8 and 7 ring and felt inadequate by my own standards.

28 out of 40 rounds is a 70 percent hit rate. At this level I think the shooter poses an unacceptable risk to any bystanders.

Those that met the minimum requirements walked away with their certificate now ready to go get their concealed carry permit. I'm sure most of these people will never pick up that gun again until they need it. Those that brought 9mm's they couldn't operate and qualified with a .22 are going to be shocked the first time they manage to pull the trigger on the 9. Heaven help those around them.

Surely, a lot of the bad guys out there realize that the person holding the gun on them probably can't shoot for crap anyway so they're not terribly intimidated by the shooter.

Yeah, some type of basic pistol course should be required before getting your concealed carry permit. I would ALMOST go so far as to say you can only carry what you qualified with until you go and get re-qualified on another weapon. That's the way it works with aircraft and auto licenses. I think the sheriff in the original post was going to extremes but there has to be a higher level of proficiency exhibited by concealed carry holders.

With what I shot I wouldn't have passed myself if it was up to me. I WILL be spending more time at the range. Probably won't submit my paperwork until I get a little more proficient.

</rant>

All the Best,
D. White

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Old 04-22-2012, 10:10   #118
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They (sic) state requires that of the 40 rounds fired in the test 28 have to hit in the required zone. Some just barely got there and the missed shots were all over the paper. I myseif had 2 shots between the 8 and 7 ring and felt inadequate by my own standards.

28 out of 40 rounds is a 70 percent hit rate. At this level I think the shooter poses an unacceptable risk to any bystanders.

Those that met the minimum requirements walked away with their certificate now ready to go get their concealed carry permit.
They met the minimum standards of the state. If you want tighter standards, be careful what you ask for. Try hitting a 2"x2" post-it at 35 yds with 5 shots, from the holster, in 3 seconds. Maybe that should be the minimum standard? (And we haven't even touched on recurrent training standards...how many of us practice support-side only draws and mag changes on a regular basis, even though we learned it in training years ago?)

Should CCW permitees be able to hit the side of a barn as a minimum requirement? Sure, but it's a slippery slope from CCW carry being a fairly common thing, to making a training requirement so challenging, that a government, so inclined, could use it to restrict concealed carry. The government could say they're not restricting the right to carry, it's just that nobody can meet the minimum standard. (Not that there's anyone out there that would do that...)

Does it take an "expert" to say that rigorous training is needed? Not to someone who takes their personal responsibility seriously. It's like "experts" saying drivers need to take training seriously. Living in Memphis, only half the drivers can keep it between the lines most of the time and 90% have absolutely no idea of what the stalk on the left side of the steering column is for...yet, they met the minimum standards of the state.

If you take your right to concealed carry seriously, you know where you are on the spectrum of FNG to Clint Smith clone. Could we all use more training and range time? You bet! Hopefully, you're not comfortable until you're on the Clint Smith end of the continuum, but, unless you're Smith or other trainers who teach on a daily basis, you've got to have balance in your life.

When the poo hits the fan, you're going to revert to your level of training and proficiency. Hopefully, your sense of responsibility kept that level higher than your opponent(s), and even then, there are no guarantees.
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Old 04-22-2012, 10:16   #119
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The thing is, idk about most people, but if I am in the safety and security of my own home, and I feel I need to grab my gun to leave MY PROPERTY to go check something out elsewhere, it will already be a life or death crisis situation in progress, or else I would stay in my house. If it is a situation risky enough that I feel I need my gun to even approach the situation, then I would start asking myself, "is this REALLY necessary?"....well unless someone's life is in immediate danger then that answer would be no. And I'd have stayed put.
This is my philosophy as well.
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Old 04-22-2012, 12:26   #120
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Actually, I believe your interpretation fails to consider Hamilton's words in Federalist Paper #29
The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, nor a week nor even a month, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry and of the other classes of the citizens to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people and a serious public inconvenience and loss.
--- The Federalist Papers, No. 29.
Hamilton indicates a well-regulated militia is a state of preparedness obtained after rigorous and persistent training. Note his use of 'disciplining' which indicates discipline could be synonymous with well-trained.
While I think Hamilton believed it would have been nice to train & discipline the people in the use of arms, my take on this quote is that he knew it would be impossible to have the militia trained to the level of "well regulated".

Here is the rest of the quote.

"Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year."- The Federalist Papers #29

He did not mention trained and disciplined.

Is it a good idea for people who CCW to be trained in the use of force and arms? Of course.

Should it be required by the state in order to CCW? I don't think so.
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Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31