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Old 12-08-2010, 16:42   #41
Eyescream
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My thinking is that if it's a big enough deal for me to pull the trigger, it's a big enough deal for me to not be too concerned about whether whoever's on the other end is gonna live or die.
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Old 12-08-2010, 16:58   #42
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Originally Posted by MrMurphy View Post
It's your house.

Lethal is the option. They should not be there.

Toss in the fact that you NEVER use both types of loads in one gun.
Yup..
"They should not be there."
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Old 12-09-2010, 17:22   #43
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Don't you mean you wanted to stop the threat? If the time ever comes that you are forced to defend yourself with deadly force it's generally accepted that it is not a good idea to state that you intended to harm the person you acted against. In actuality they intended to harm you (or so you believed) and you were forced to react in a manner in which you thought was necessary to stop the threat.
Isn't that what I said? Better check my original post. Something is wrong with the quote function. Did you edit my original response???
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Old 12-16-2010, 12:50   #44
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Its your gun and your choice, but I think its a terrible idea.

Case law, at least TN law which I'm familiar with, supports that if a private citizen (i.e. non LEO) deploys a weapon he has deployed lethal force, regardless of what the weapon is loaded with. When LE employs Less Lethal it comes with a large amount of training, policy, and case law to back it up. Less Lethal is recognized as being potentially lethal and falls just under lethal force in the force continuam. In the narrowly defined role in which we can deploy less lethal equipment (in our case a SL6 37mm launcher) by policy we are backed by officers ready to deploy lethal force should it be required and are to immediately contact medical personel for the subject once he is subdued. The scene is treated as if it is a lethal force shooting. My stance is that less lethal should NEVER be fired out of a weapon also used for lethal ammunition due to the potential of inadvertantly firing the wrong weapon or loading the incorrect shell. Having deployed less lethal ammuntion on several occasions and witnessing its use on several more, I would be unwilling to deploy it in a situation where I was at home and believed I was in danger of death or imminent bodily harm.

While I support anyone's right to defend themselves as they see fit, I personally do not see a role for less lethal ammunition in home defense. If he comes into your home and then continues towards you after you announce you are armed and will shoot then he is an obvious lethal threat and should be dealt with appropriately. If he takes the TV and starts backing out then he is not a lethal threat and you can get a new TV after you file the police report. You do not have to subdue and arrest him, therefore I do not see a role for the less lethal.

But again, its your house, your gun, and your posterior, so my opinion doesn't really matter.
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Old 12-19-2010, 19:25   #45
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Well, since LTL can still cause harm or death at close ranges (read:inside the house) what would be the difference in it and full lead? I mean, it will achieve the same purpose right?
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Old 12-19-2010, 19:30   #46
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Originally Posted by leathermarshmallow View Post
Well, since LTL can still cause harm or death at close ranges (read:inside the house) what would be the difference in it and full lead? I mean, it will achieve the same purpose right?
You have it right there in what you wrote...
LTL can cause harm or death...
Lead will....
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Old 12-25-2010, 00:17   #47
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+1

We had LTL SuperSock rounds when I was on SWAT...and very clear SOPs on when to use them. Which included deadly force standing nearby in case LTL didn't work.

Run it past your attorney (because I'm not one), but from a tactical and legal perspective, LTL rounds for HD use is not something I would recommend. The response I would expect from your "good guy" assertion is, "well, if you didn't perceive an imminent threat to your life, why didn't you choose pepper spray instead of a shotgun"? In the rural parts of my area, farmers would use rock salt in their shotshells. Our prosecutors at the academy still considered that rock salt was lethal force.

Be sure to consider both criminal and civil ramifications of your HD plan.

Last edited by fpgeek; 12-25-2010 at 00:23..
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Old 12-25-2010, 08:34   #48
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Any potentially deadly encounter calls for sufficient force to deal with the threat.

How does anyone know an intruder's intentions? Does the name Richard Speck ring a bell?

The point is, if you have the advantage of being armed you can alert the intruder and in most cases he will retreat if possible. That's not an unreasonable choice for those who have qualms about using deadly force.

But for those cases where the defender either can't sound an alert or the intruder is determined to persist the only alternative in my mind is for the defender to use the deadly force at his/her disposal. I would never think of loading rubber buckshot or any other LTL shells in a home defense weapon.
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Old 04-17-2012, 15:17   #49
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I know I'm resurecting a year old thread but I want your guys opinion on this subject given my circumstances: I have a 20 year old daughter going to college in Chattanooga, about 3 hours from me. She was assaulted once but is OK. She got some self-defense training, I gave her and her room mate OC gel sprayers and used a third one for them to learn how it employ it.

The problem is that neither girl would in any way want to kill anyone so would probably hesitate to use known lethal force. That said, I thought that the use of non-lethal 12 gauge ammo would possibly be the way to go. If they are confidant in using the shotgun, know they can hit their target and can resonably expect first round incapacitation without killing anyone, I believe they would use it without hesitation.

Myself, I carry a 45ACP and have a 12 gauge in the corner of the bedroom with the first round #6, the next 3 OO buck, the last 4 slugs. But the fact is, my daughter is 300 miles away and an LEO is just miutes away when seconds matter. What do you guys think?
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Old 04-17-2012, 16:01   #50
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I can think of a couple pros and cons to LTL ammo in a HD shotgun. Just wanted to know what you guys think. After much thought, i think good old 00 Buck is the way to go, but i may be wrong. What do you think?

FTR, the only good reasons i can think of for LTL ammo are:
1. You can come out shooting at ANY threat, no matter what, and be justified since it likely won't kill. (even if its drunk kids trying to steal something).

2. It "looks good" in court if your first round is LTL, since you gave a them a "chance"

3. LTL rounds could still be deadly at HD range but makes you "look better" in court

4. They are a poor excuse and give the bad guy a chance of killing you first....you should have come out full force when you had the chance. Your life and the life of your family depend on it. 00 Buck from the start....period.

What do you think?
I can only think of cons, not s single pro to a civilian using ltl at home.

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Old 04-17-2012, 16:32   #51
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if i'm pushed to the point of using a firearm on someone why in the hell would i choose to use less than lethal options?? that makes about as much sense as an inflatable dartboard.
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Old 04-17-2012, 17:30   #52
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I can only think of cons, not s single pro to a civilian using ltl at home.

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Exactly.

To the guy that asked: if your daughter wouldn't be ready and able to pull the trigger on a shotgun, then LTL is not the answer. It's still potentially lethal inside 10 yards when used improperly, will not reliably stop someone that's determined, and can even open you to liability.

The OC gel may not be a great idea indoor, either, honestly.
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Old 04-17-2012, 17:50   #53
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Dollar Bill, I know people who have the same mindset as your daughter and there is not much chance of changing it. They absolutely just will not use ammunition which is perceived to be "genuinely lethal."

We all know that less than lethal is not the way to go, and we all know that in some cases it can be lethal, but we need to put such common sense aside here and work within the parameters.
She has the OC gel, which I don't know anything about. It might be great, might not be. If I was in that position where a loved one insists on using LTL, then I might recommend 12 gauge baton rounds in a break open shotgun. They don't produce much perceived recoil and in that package there is at least a fairly good chance she can get two shots off (because lets face it, she won't be practicing much so a pump could be a short cycle liability). Semi: maybe an FN SLP with a light piston installed could cycle the baton rounds, I don't know. There may be maintenance issues there.

These are the rounds I am talking about, I tried them in South Africa. They are hard rubber spheres, two to a case. Not ideal but the parameters aren't ideal either...

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Old 04-17-2012, 17:54   #54
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I appreciate your input. To everyone who say "I wouldn't", that's not the point. I wouldn't use it either.

Get inside a 20 YO female med students head. If they think they can use it, stop someone without killing them, they're much more likely to use it without hesitating.

Anyone who has actually used lethal force knows the first time, even with training, there's always the thought in the back of your head that you've been taught since birth that "Thou shall not kill". When you're talking about a young woman who has been taught right from wrong from birth, that hesitation can get you hurt.

The vast majority of assaults on young women do not entail the use of a firearm. My thought process is that this will give them the edge they need to successfully defend themselves.

As to why my first load is #6, I know for a fact that my first shot will probably be rushed and not spot-on accurate. This ensures a first round hit, keeps the bad guys head down quickly and allows accurate, hard hitting follow-ups. If they are still moving, it will be down and towards an exit. Slugs punch through walls easily and can take out second assailants behind walls.
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Old 04-17-2012, 18:38   #55
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I appreciate your input. To everyone who say "I wouldn't", that's not the point. I wouldn't use it either.

Get inside a 20 YO female med students head. If they think they can use it, stop someone without killing them, they're much more likely to use it without hesitating.

Anyone who has actually used lethal force knows the first time, even with training, there's always the thought in the back of your head that you've been taught since birth that "Thou shall not kill". When you're talking about a young woman who has been taught right from wrong from birth, that hesitation can get you hurt.

The vast majority of assaults on young women do not entail the use of a firearm. My thought process is that this will give them the edge they need to successfully defend themselves.

As to why my first load is #6, I know for a fact that my first shot will probably be rushed and not spot-on accurate. This ensures a first round hit, keeps the bad guys head down quickly and allows accurate, hard hitting follow-ups. If they are still moving, it will be down and towards an exit. Slugs punch through walls easily and can take out second assailants behind walls.
Dollar, here's my question: If it's a load that we all know may or may not work, or may spectacularly backfire and kill the perp (making the emotional aftermath for your daughter MUCH worse), why do it to begin with? I'd suggest researching other options before going the route of a shotgun with LTL. Upgrading bedroom doors to heavy duty doors with reinforced door frames and dead bolts (turning the bedrooms into safe rooms), the OC gel, an alarm system with key-fob remotes that have panic buttons, and even the civilian taser all come to mind. Until or unless your daughter can come to grips with the idea of potentially taking a life in defense of her own, I'd avoid firearms completely. Spend some time with her, and build the idea into her that the idea is to STOP them, not kill them. Teach her to STOP, and that a load of buckshot is the best method available to her to do so, and you might have better progress.

As a side note, your reasons for bird shot being the first in the pipe are the best ones I have ever heard for it. While I do not agree with it, I can't fault your reasoning for it one bit.
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Old 04-17-2012, 19:40   #56
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I'd suggest researching other options before going the route of a shotgun with LTL. Upgrading bedroom doors to heavy duty doors with reinforced door frames and dead bolts (turning the bedrooms into safe rooms), the OC gel, an alarm system with key-fob remotes that have panic buttons, and even the civilian taser all come to mind.
Thanks. that's probably the best bet. The wife and I are going down there in 2 weeks to put the MK 1 eyeball on the place. My oldest daughter suggested the taser. Definitely worth looking into. The apartment manager has no problem with upgraded doors and frames. Locks on the bedroom doors would just have to be removed when they move out.

The OC is mainly for them both getting off work late at night when no one can walk them to their cars.

As a side note, the youngest is a darned good shot. She out-shot the RO with my S&W 624 the first time she shot it. The RO was a little embarrassed as he had kept suggesting she aught to try his Ruger Mk2 first. She has shot my Glock 21 although it's too big for her hands. She also shoots smallbore rifle with me when she's home.
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Old 04-17-2012, 20:04   #57
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Thanks. that's probably the best bet. The wife and I are going down there in 2 weeks to put the MK 1 eyeball on the place. My oldest daughter suggested the taser. Definitely worth looking into. The apartment manager has no problem with upgraded doors and frames. Locks on the bedroom doors would just have to be removed when they move out.

The OC is mainly for them both getting off work late at night when no one can walk them to their cars.

As a side note, the youngest is a darned good shot. She out-shot the RO with my S&W 624 the first time she shot it. The RO was a little embarrassed as he had kept suggesting she aught to try his Ruger Mk2 first. She has shot my Glock 21 although it's too big for her hands. She also shoots smallbore rifle with me when she's home.
Sounds like a good idea. I'd say the taser would only be useful for buying her time to get to the bedroom, once it has been properly reinforced, as the "ride" is still fairly short, and the perp is back in the fight as soon as it ends. We had two local deputies get killed a few years ago when an armed suspect rode out the taser and came up shooting as soon as the charge stopped firing. The upgraded doors, frames, and locks would be the first priority, unless you can get her into the mindset of being prepared to use a firearm loaded with lethal ammunition in self defense. I'd say alarm immediately following (with some way of triggering it from the bedroom), then a taser.
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Old 05-01-2012, 18:18   #58
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For LTL my dept has settled on the bean bag rounds and they have been pretty effective for their intended use.
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Old 05-02-2012, 14:16   #59
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When I lived in France I had a semi auto Franchi 12 gauge. I was told to use only rubber slugs for defense.
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Old 05-02-2012, 17:05   #60
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and remember - Brandon Lee was killed with a blank.
Wrong. There were so many levels of fail in the time leading up to his death; bullet lodged in barrel, nobody checking the condition of the revolver, etc.. then using a charged blank for the fatal shot.
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