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Old 04-17-2012, 16:32   #51
BEER
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if i'm pushed to the point of using a firearm on someone why in the hell would i choose to use less than lethal options?? that makes about as much sense as an inflatable dartboard.
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Old 04-17-2012, 17:30   #52
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I can only think of cons, not s single pro to a civilian using ltl at home.

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Exactly.

To the guy that asked: if your daughter wouldn't be ready and able to pull the trigger on a shotgun, then LTL is not the answer. It's still potentially lethal inside 10 yards when used improperly, will not reliably stop someone that's determined, and can even open you to liability.

The OC gel may not be a great idea indoor, either, honestly.
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Old 04-17-2012, 17:50   #53
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Dollar Bill, I know people who have the same mindset as your daughter and there is not much chance of changing it. They absolutely just will not use ammunition which is perceived to be "genuinely lethal."

We all know that less than lethal is not the way to go, and we all know that in some cases it can be lethal, but we need to put such common sense aside here and work within the parameters.
She has the OC gel, which I don't know anything about. It might be great, might not be. If I was in that position where a loved one insists on using LTL, then I might recommend 12 gauge baton rounds in a break open shotgun. They don't produce much perceived recoil and in that package there is at least a fairly good chance she can get two shots off (because lets face it, she won't be practicing much so a pump could be a short cycle liability). Semi: maybe an FN SLP with a light piston installed could cycle the baton rounds, I don't know. There may be maintenance issues there.

These are the rounds I am talking about, I tried them in South Africa. They are hard rubber spheres, two to a case. Not ideal but the parameters aren't ideal either...

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Old 04-17-2012, 17:54   #54
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I appreciate your input. To everyone who say "I wouldn't", that's not the point. I wouldn't use it either.

Get inside a 20 YO female med students head. If they think they can use it, stop someone without killing them, they're much more likely to use it without hesitating.

Anyone who has actually used lethal force knows the first time, even with training, there's always the thought in the back of your head that you've been taught since birth that "Thou shall not kill". When you're talking about a young woman who has been taught right from wrong from birth, that hesitation can get you hurt.

The vast majority of assaults on young women do not entail the use of a firearm. My thought process is that this will give them the edge they need to successfully defend themselves.

As to why my first load is #6, I know for a fact that my first shot will probably be rushed and not spot-on accurate. This ensures a first round hit, keeps the bad guys head down quickly and allows accurate, hard hitting follow-ups. If they are still moving, it will be down and towards an exit. Slugs punch through walls easily and can take out second assailants behind walls.
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Old 04-17-2012, 18:38   #55
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I appreciate your input. To everyone who say "I wouldn't", that's not the point. I wouldn't use it either.

Get inside a 20 YO female med students head. If they think they can use it, stop someone without killing them, they're much more likely to use it without hesitating.

Anyone who has actually used lethal force knows the first time, even with training, there's always the thought in the back of your head that you've been taught since birth that "Thou shall not kill". When you're talking about a young woman who has been taught right from wrong from birth, that hesitation can get you hurt.

The vast majority of assaults on young women do not entail the use of a firearm. My thought process is that this will give them the edge they need to successfully defend themselves.

As to why my first load is #6, I know for a fact that my first shot will probably be rushed and not spot-on accurate. This ensures a first round hit, keeps the bad guys head down quickly and allows accurate, hard hitting follow-ups. If they are still moving, it will be down and towards an exit. Slugs punch through walls easily and can take out second assailants behind walls.
Dollar, here's my question: If it's a load that we all know may or may not work, or may spectacularly backfire and kill the perp (making the emotional aftermath for your daughter MUCH worse), why do it to begin with? I'd suggest researching other options before going the route of a shotgun with LTL. Upgrading bedroom doors to heavy duty doors with reinforced door frames and dead bolts (turning the bedrooms into safe rooms), the OC gel, an alarm system with key-fob remotes that have panic buttons, and even the civilian taser all come to mind. Until or unless your daughter can come to grips with the idea of potentially taking a life in defense of her own, I'd avoid firearms completely. Spend some time with her, and build the idea into her that the idea is to STOP them, not kill them. Teach her to STOP, and that a load of buckshot is the best method available to her to do so, and you might have better progress.

As a side note, your reasons for bird shot being the first in the pipe are the best ones I have ever heard for it. While I do not agree with it, I can't fault your reasoning for it one bit.
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Old 04-17-2012, 19:40   #56
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I'd suggest researching other options before going the route of a shotgun with LTL. Upgrading bedroom doors to heavy duty doors with reinforced door frames and dead bolts (turning the bedrooms into safe rooms), the OC gel, an alarm system with key-fob remotes that have panic buttons, and even the civilian taser all come to mind.
Thanks. that's probably the best bet. The wife and I are going down there in 2 weeks to put the MK 1 eyeball on the place. My oldest daughter suggested the taser. Definitely worth looking into. The apartment manager has no problem with upgraded doors and frames. Locks on the bedroom doors would just have to be removed when they move out.

The OC is mainly for them both getting off work late at night when no one can walk them to their cars.

As a side note, the youngest is a darned good shot. She out-shot the RO with my S&W 624 the first time she shot it. The RO was a little embarrassed as he had kept suggesting she aught to try his Ruger Mk2 first. She has shot my Glock 21 although it's too big for her hands. She also shoots smallbore rifle with me when she's home.
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Old 04-17-2012, 20:04   #57
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Thanks. that's probably the best bet. The wife and I are going down there in 2 weeks to put the MK 1 eyeball on the place. My oldest daughter suggested the taser. Definitely worth looking into. The apartment manager has no problem with upgraded doors and frames. Locks on the bedroom doors would just have to be removed when they move out.

The OC is mainly for them both getting off work late at night when no one can walk them to their cars.

As a side note, the youngest is a darned good shot. She out-shot the RO with my S&W 624 the first time she shot it. The RO was a little embarrassed as he had kept suggesting she aught to try his Ruger Mk2 first. She has shot my Glock 21 although it's too big for her hands. She also shoots smallbore rifle with me when she's home.
Sounds like a good idea. I'd say the taser would only be useful for buying her time to get to the bedroom, once it has been properly reinforced, as the "ride" is still fairly short, and the perp is back in the fight as soon as it ends. We had two local deputies get killed a few years ago when an armed suspect rode out the taser and came up shooting as soon as the charge stopped firing. The upgraded doors, frames, and locks would be the first priority, unless you can get her into the mindset of being prepared to use a firearm loaded with lethal ammunition in self defense. I'd say alarm immediately following (with some way of triggering it from the bedroom), then a taser.
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Old 05-01-2012, 18:18   #58
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For LTL my dept has settled on the bean bag rounds and they have been pretty effective for their intended use.
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Old 05-02-2012, 14:16   #59
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When I lived in France I had a semi auto Franchi 12 gauge. I was told to use only rubber slugs for defense.
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Old 05-02-2012, 17:05   #60
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and remember - Brandon Lee was killed with a blank.
Wrong. There were so many levels of fail in the time leading up to his death; bullet lodged in barrel, nobody checking the condition of the revolver, etc.. then using a charged blank for the fatal shot.
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Old 05-02-2012, 19:12   #61
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When I lived in France I had a semi auto Franchi 12 gauge. I was told to use only rubber slugs for defense.
Well, it's France. Is anyone really surprised?
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Old 05-02-2012, 20:54   #62
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As much as I try to avoid this topic in open forums I can't. I advise people to call me for the six reason this is a good idea to use as you first round. That offer stands and I will simply state the best reason and it is this.

There was one perfect man and they beat the S**t out of him and hung him on a cross for being perfect. I am not him and I can make a mistake. With this munition as my first round I can live with that mistake and so can the person I used this on. Mistake are most always one round deals and this munition is more forgiving then lead. I have five other reason that are just as valid and anyone who calls can hear them. I avoid posting them in open forum because as the real killers come out with their tuff talk and BS but the above is worth stating. He has ears let him hear.

Now all you perfect men dispute the above.
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Old 05-02-2012, 21:08   #63
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As much as I try to avoid this topic in open forums I can't. I advise people to call me for the six reason this is a good idea to use as you first round. That offer stands and I will simply state the best reason and it is this.

There was one perfect man and they beat the S**t out of him and hung him on a cross for being perfect. I am not him and I can make a mistake. With this munition as my first round I can live with that mistake and so can the person I used this on. Mistake are most always one round deals and this munition is more forgiving then lead. I have five other reason that are just as valid and anyone who calls can hear them. I avoid posting them in open forum because as the real killers come out with their tuff talk and BS but the above is worth stating. He has ears let him hear.

Now all you perfect men dispute the above.
I can see reasons for using it as the first round, even though they are reasons I would not agree with for my needs. If you're not willing to back up that LTL with high-speed lead, though, you probably shouldn't be using a firearm for self defense, though.
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Old 05-02-2012, 22:07   #64
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He can tell Jesus or Satan what my second round was as he will be meeting one of them immediately if he fails to DEE DEE atter the Specialty Inpact round hits him.
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Old 05-03-2012, 13:49   #65
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He can tell Jesus or Satan what my second round was as he will be meeting one of them immediately if he fails to DEE DEE atter the Specialty Inpact round hits him.
Unfortunately, I have seen people advocating LTL that did not back it up with lethal ammo.

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Old 05-03-2012, 17:05   #66
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LTL; not for me.
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Old 05-03-2012, 18:42   #67
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uncalled for post. disregard.
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