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Old 04-11-2012, 18:03   #61
Vic Hays
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According to Paul the ones who rejected Christ are not Israel any longer. It is only the faithful that are called Israel.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
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John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
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Old 04-11-2012, 20:44   #62
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You still don't seem to be getting what I'm saying. I'll be more blunt.

The Christian Jesus is NOT the Messiah of the Bible. Yes, people are saved in His name. But it's because of His grace, not their theology.

There is no way to condemn a Jew for rejecting Jesus. There's no reason to. There's no reason why a Jew should believe in Jesus. Sorry, but that's the truth. Start teaching them about the Messiah in the Bible and you'll have an argument.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

And remember, this is concerning the Jews AT THAT TIME. When the real Messiah was known. Not now.
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Old 04-11-2012, 22:40   #63
Vic Hays
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You still don't seem to be getting what I'm saying. I'll be more blunt.

The Christian Jesus is NOT the Messiah of the Bible. Yes, people are saved in His name. But it's because of His grace, not their theology.

There is no way to condemn a Jew for rejecting Jesus. There's no reason to. There's no reason why a Jew should believe in Jesus. Sorry, but that's the truth. Start teaching them about the Messiah in the Bible and you'll have an argument.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

And remember, this is concerning the Jews AT THAT TIME. When the real Messiah was known. Not now.
Everyone will be judged. Election does not mean the nation of Israel has an automatic in. They are surrounded by hostile nations who are determined to destroy them.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured on the desolate.

What about just before the second coming? The king of the south (traditionally the caliph) takes over Jerusalem.

Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of your people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:30   #64
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Everyone will be judged. Election does not mean the nation of Israel has an automatic in. They are surrounded by hostile nations who are determined to destroy them.
Agreed

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Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of your people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
These passages cover a lot of time. It's hard to say when they will happen. The Bible does say that half the city will be taken. The other half won't. It's the taking of the land that brings God's anger up in His face and unleashes Messiah to return.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

Last edited by Brasso; 04-12-2012 at 08:31..
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Old 04-12-2012, 20:45   #65
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Agreed



These passages cover a lot of time. It's hard to say when they will happen. The Bible does say that half the city will be taken. The other half won't. It's the taking of the land that brings God's anger up in His face and unleashes Messiah to return.
If they had accepted Jesus things would have come to their fruition long ago. God of course knew they would not as a nation. Salvation is an individual thing not a national or even denominational thing.

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
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Last edited by Vic Hays; 04-12-2012 at 20:49..
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Old 04-13-2012, 13:55   #66
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If they had accepted Jesus things would have come to their fruition long ago. God of course knew they would not as a nation. Salvation is an individual thing not a national or even denominational thing.
It is both an individual and a national event. Passover and Atonement.
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Old 04-14-2012, 09:22   #67
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Some will get the victory over the Mark of the Beast. Do you suppose they might know who the Beast is and what the mark is?

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are your works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are your ways, you King of saints.
15:4 Who shall not fear you, O Lord, and glorify your name? for you only are holy: for all nations shall come and worship before you; for your judgments are made manifest.
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John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
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Old 04-14-2012, 14:31   #68
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Why do you suppose they sing the song of Moses and the Lamb? There is a reason. "To the Torah and the Testimony....."

You may want to look at Wormwood.

Rev 8:10 And the third messenger sounded, and a great star fell from the heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the fountains of water,
Rev 8:11 and the name of the star is called Wormwood. And a third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the waters, because they were made bitter.


Deu 29:18 lest there should be among you a man or woman or clan or tribe, whose heart turns away today from יהוה our Elohim, to go and serve the mighty ones of these nations, lest there should be among you a root bearing bitterness or wormwood.

Pro 5:4 But in the end she is bitter as wormwood, Sharp as a two-edged sword.
Pro 5:5 Her feet go down to death, Her steps lay hold of the grave.
Pro 5:6 She does not consider the path of life; Her ways are unstable – you do not know it.
Pro 5:7 So now, listen to me, you children, And do not turn away from the words of my mouth.

Jer 9:13 And יהוה says, “Because they have forsaken My Torah which I set before them, and have not obeyed My voice,1 nor walked according to it, Footnote: 1See at 7:23.
Jer 9:14 but they have walked according to the stubbornness of their own heart and after the Baʽals, which their fathers had taught them.”
Jer 9:15 Therefore thus said יהוה of hosts, the Elohim of Yisra’ĕl, “See, I am making this people eat wormwood, and I shall make them drink poisoned water.

Amo 5:6 “Seek יהוה and live, lest He break out like fire upon the house of Yosĕph, and shall consume it, with no one to quench it in Bĕyth Ěl.
Amo 5:7 “O you who are turning right-ruling to wormwood, and have cast down righteousness to the earth!”

Wormwood is the spirit of disobedience. It refers to breaking the Torah. The Torah is Life, Wormwood is death.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

Last edited by Brasso; 04-14-2012 at 14:32..
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Old 04-14-2012, 14:39   #69
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I have been interested to find out exactly what wormwood is. I came across this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemisia_absinthium

I had no idea it was an actual plant, and its usages.
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:32   #70
Vic Hays
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Why do you suppose they sing the song of Moses and the Lamb? There is a reason. "To the Torah and the Testimony....."

You may want to look at Wormwood.

Rev 8:10 And the third messenger sounded, and a great star fell from the heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the fountains of water,
Rev 8:11 and the name of the star is called Wormwood. And a third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the waters, because they were made bitter.


Wormwood is the spirit of disobedience. It refers to breaking the Torah. The Torah is Life, Wormwood is death.
My study of Revelation has led me to believe that wormwood in this case is a corrupted gospel that leads to death.

The great star that fell from heaven is lucifer. It falls on the fresh water ( the Gospel) which is the source of life. It becomes bitter and then becomes a source of death.
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:35   #71
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My study of Revelation has led me to believe that wormwood in this case is a corrupted gospel that leads to death.

The great star that fell from heaven is lucifer. It falls on the fresh water ( the Gospel) which is the source of life. It becomes bitter and then becomes a source of death.
Ironically, the plant is also used as part of an intoxicant. So, there might even be a deeper meaning to your concept as well.
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:38   #72
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I never believed in this stuff, but just goes to show you absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Religious Issues

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Old 04-15-2012, 11:16   #73
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My study of Revelation has led me to believe that wormwood in this case is a corrupted gospel that leads to death.
Just as long as it has nothing to do with Torah right?

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The great star that fell from heaven is lucifer. It falls on the fresh water ( the Gospel) which is the source of life. It becomes bitter and then becomes a source of death.
And why must this be future? Did Yeshua not say that He saw satan fall from heaven?

Everyone always wants to put all of Revelation in the future. This is why they are deceived.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

Last edited by Brasso; 04-15-2012 at 11:19..
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Old 04-15-2012, 15:54   #74
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Why do you suppose they sing the song of Moses and the Lamb?
cause they don't know the words to "Stairway to Heaven"?
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Old 04-15-2012, 16:00   #75
Vic Hays
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Just as long as it has nothing to do with Torah right?

And why must this be future? Did Yeshua not say that He saw satan fall from heaven?

Everyone always wants to put all of Revelation in the future. This is why they are deceived.
You seem to be reading a lot into what I posted that I did not say. I am not a futurist or preterist or a secret rapturist.
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