Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-13-2012, 06:54   #241
OctoberRust
Anti-Federalist
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,642
Quote:
Originally Posted by kensteele View Post
good to hear she came thru it ok. some people get really torn up in car accidents, others walk away with no scratches, many in between. seems to me if you are fighting murder charges claiming self-defense, you want to fall in the former category. can you agree with me that we should let the medical experts testify in an open courtroom to establish the facts rather than a small police department and a couple of paramedics in the field contributing to the final call? car accident victims don't have to atone for their injuries, that's why my comments were not serious; on the surface, looking at Zman, i'm not personally inclined to believe he just came out of a fight for his life but I understand the fears. not just that pic, but the earlier video as well....but this is all just personal perception.

It would look bad if he were caught lying about his broken nose. But we cannot assume without x-rays either way if it was broken or not.

This case seems more of like a disparity of force issue. According to Zimmerman's story, he could not get away from Trayvon, and was in fear for his life. If this indeed is how the story went, he could have not even suffered a cut/bruise/broken nose, and still justifiably shot him due to such.

It's sort of like when I asked Massad Ayoob in the gate about if a group is telling me they're going to do harm to me, yet have not yet, and I have no reasonable way to escape the situation, the shoot would be defensible. Even if that shot was taken before the "beatdown" even began.
OctoberRust is offline  
Old 04-13-2012, 07:20   #242
ModGlock17
Senior Member
 
ModGlock17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lalaland USA
Posts: 2,625
Quote:
Originally Posted by kensteele View Post
Dershowitz defended OJ as well.
True. And OJ got off !

Miracle man, heh?
ModGlock17 is offline  
Old 04-13-2012, 09:10   #243
Sam Spade
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
Sam Spade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 21,207
Quote:
Originally Posted by kensteele View Post
If you are ok with a judge deciding the case on the spot and simply dismissing the charges and setting Zman free then you have to be ok with the opposite: a judge deciding the case and ruling the charges are valid and finding Zman guilty, go to prison for 25 years minimum.
Not how it works. Dismissal of charges on a motion isn't the same thing as adjudication (acquittal/conviction) on the charges at trial.
__________________
"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle
Sam Spade is offline  
Old 04-13-2012, 09:13   #244
kat1950
Senior Member
 
kat1950's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: seminole county, florida
Posts: 914


And now it starts

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news...ights_group_w/



http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news..._martin_bloom/

Last edited by kat1950; 04-13-2012 at 09:17..
kat1950 is offline  
Old 04-13-2012, 09:34   #245
kat1950
Senior Member
 
kat1950's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: seminole county, florida
Posts: 914


Harvard Law Professor Alan Dershowitz says that he's read the affadavit and that it will result in an acquital, if it ever makes it to trial. "It’s irresponsible and unethical. . . . This affidavit doesn’t even make it to probable cause. Everything in this affidavit is consistent with a defense of self-defense. . . .A good judge will throw this out.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/...hews/#47034974


Takes a 4 or 5 seconds for video to start, I do not watch this station and some might have already seen, just found it interesting.

Last edited by kat1950; 04-13-2012 at 09:45..
kat1950 is offline  
Old 04-13-2012, 09:45   #246
Warp
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
 
Warp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NE of Atlanta
Posts: 30,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by ModGlock17 View Post
Angela Corey had no choice but to let the jury decides this hot-potato case. I believe in her heart, she knows Z is good to go free but she is screwed if she was to decide that herself. After all, it's Z who started this whole thing so let HIM to through the process to bail out the controversy that was his to own.

What she can do, is to craft a charge that is unlikely to succeed, similar to Casey Anthony's first degree,and let it go to the jury. Whoever the Defense Atty is, would enjoy the easy case and free publicity. O'Mara wants publicity which is going to be payment for his services to Z.

That is why experts are chuckling at the charge.
...so use a grand jury?

As for the rest, I cannot deny that logic.
__________________
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

I HIGHLY recommend Google Chrome and Adblock to all world wide web users. (I would have left GT a long time ago without these extensions!)

Last edited by Warp; 04-13-2012 at 09:46..
Warp is offline  
Old 04-13-2012, 09:54   #247
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
The DA didn't want to be overruled by a Grand Jury, so she didn't call on them.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline  
Old 04-13-2012, 10:29   #248
JAFO1-12
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: South Everett, WA
Posts: 34
i really shouldnt even post this, since i find most of the politico-babble on GT to be borderline tinfoil hat stuff, but does it even matter to anyone that zimmerman stalked this kid, in a car, at night, some distance before getting out and attempting to engage (who knows what he was thinking, i would hope he meant to chat) this "person"? has anyone put themselves in that position? you are just walking near your house and someone is stalking you in a car? you have done nothing wrong and yet this person seems intent on engaging you? since most of us ARE CCW folks, is it possible to conceive of yourself in this situation and just not giving an EFF? seriously? you are all law abiding citizens and 2A advocates, at what point do you get pissed off by some fruitcake stalking you in a car in your own neighborhood? or better yet YOU engage HIM and say "can i help you sir? you seem lost!" which is probably what i would have done. then again, im a combat vet, and i really dont give a EFF...
since i am sure i will get harangued, i am a conservaliberal. which means i believe in the freedom to enjoy strip clubs AND carry a weapon. not at the same time necessarily, but i firmly believe in the death penalty, the right to own weapons, and protecting the innocent and the infirm from abuse by zealots of EITHER the right or left.
JAFO1-12 is offline  
Old 04-13-2012, 10:34   #249
Toetag
Wannabe
 
Toetag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
The DA didn't want to be overruled by a Grand Jury, so she didn't call on them.
Heh....getting a "No Bill" would be bad for business.
__________________
I was thrown out of the Boy Scouts for eating a Brownie.
Toetag is offline  
Old 04-13-2012, 11:06   #250
ZombieKing
Senior Member
 
ZombieKing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by kensteele View Post
If you are ok with a judge deciding the case on the spot and simply dismissing the charges and setting Zman free then you have to be ok with the opposite: a judge deciding the case and ruling the charges are valid and finding Zman guilty, go to prison for 25 years minimum.

Corey is still free to file other charges against Zman.
You're mixing two things up.

They are going to have a hearing where Zimmerman is going to claim that he is immune to prosecution because he is legally justified to use self defense in the incident. If the judge agrees with him and drops the charges then that's it the case is over.

If the judge doesn't agree then Zimmerman goes to trial and he can be found not guilty or guilty. Either by a jury or if he declines a jury trial then by a judge.

A judge is not going to be able to just decide the case and that he's guilty and then sentence him. He's going to have a trial first unless he can convince the judge he was legally justified in the force he used and is immune to prosecution.
__________________
Chuck Norris isn't afraid of 10mm.
Chuck Norris IS 10mm.
Every 10mm fired has a pin drop of Chuck Norris sweat placed inside it during the manufacture of said round. This most holy of sweat is what gives the 10mm its power. --
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
;)
ZombieKing is offline  
Old 04-13-2012, 11:16   #251
bear62
Senior Member
 
bear62's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Rocky Mountains
Posts: 1,550
George needs to do an extreme makeover .......... and come out looking like Opie.
bear62 is offline  
Old 04-13-2012, 11:26   #252
ZombieKing
Senior Member
 
ZombieKing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by kensteele View Post
Dershowitz defended OJ as well.
If I had a case and I needed someone to defend me and I could get Dershowitz I certainly would hire him.

Wouldn't you?
__________________
Chuck Norris isn't afraid of 10mm.
Chuck Norris IS 10mm.
Every 10mm fired has a pin drop of Chuck Norris sweat placed inside it during the manufacture of said round. This most holy of sweat is what gives the 10mm its power. --
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
;)
ZombieKing is offline  
Old 04-13-2012, 11:30   #253
IndyGunFreak
KO Windows
 
IndyGunFreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 30,319
Send a message via ICQ to IndyGunFreak Send a message via AIM to IndyGunFreak Send a message via MSN to IndyGunFreak Send a message via Yahoo to IndyGunFreak Send a message via Skype™ to IndyGunFreak


Quote:
Originally Posted by kensteele View Post
Dershowitz defended OJ as well.

Dershowitz was an appellate attorney for OJ. He did not actively participate in the trial and was only there in the event of a conviction to prepare appeals and motions to overturn the conviction.

Although I don't always agree w/ him, I have a lot of respect for Dershowitz. He's a brilliant attorney and his opinion on the Zimmerman affidavit is significant in my opinion.
__________________
Quote:
Ronald Reagan
"If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
"Man is not free unless Government is limited"
IndyGunFreak is offline  
Old 04-13-2012, 12:21   #254
kat1950
Senior Member
 
kat1950's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: seminole county, florida
Posts: 914


Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieKing View Post
If I had a case and I needed someone to defend me and I could get Dershowitz I certainly would hire him.

Wouldn't you?
Dershowitz said if he had Roy Black our south florida world renowned attorney if it gets to jury they would be back in 1 hour with not guilty. I am pretty sure Dershowitz mainly deals with appellate law.

Only in Zimmermans dreams
http://www.royblack.com/attorneys/Roy/Black/

Just watch the latest live local court coverage on the the potential replacement of judge due to conflict of interest. Judge Jessica Recksiedler husband works with the attorney Zimmerman wanted to represent him, attorney Mark Nejame, who refused him, Nejame was hired by CNN as their legal analyst.

Last edited by kat1950; 04-13-2012 at 12:42..
kat1950 is offline  
Old 04-13-2012, 12:46   #255
South Fla
©South Fla 2014
 
South Fla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Duh...
Posts: 6,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by kat1950 View Post
Bloomberg needs to worry about his own backyard first.
South Fla is offline  
Old 04-13-2012, 12:53   #256
kat1950
Senior Member
 
kat1950's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: seminole county, florida
Posts: 914


Quote:
Originally Posted by South Fla View Post
Bloomberg needs to worry about his own backyard first.

I agree, I hate the SOB.
kat1950 is offline  
Old 04-13-2012, 13:42   #257
Warp
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
 
Warp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NE of Atlanta
Posts: 30,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAFO1-12 View Post
i really shouldnt even post this, since i find most of the politico-babble on GT to be borderline tinfoil hat stuff, but does it even matter to anyone that zimmerman stalked this kid, in a car, at night, some distance before getting out and attempting to engage (who knows what he was thinking, i would hope he meant to chat) this "person"? has anyone put themselves in that position? you are just walking near your house and someone is stalking you in a car? you have done nothing wrong and yet this person seems intent on engaging you? since most of us ARE CCW folks, is it possible to conceive of yourself in this situation and just not giving an EFF? seriously? you are all law abiding citizens and 2A advocates, at what point do you get pissed off by some fruitcake stalking you in a car in your own neighborhood? or better yet YOU engage HIM and say "can i help you sir? you seem lost!" which is probably what i would have done. then again, im a combat vet, and i really dont give a EFF...
since i am sure i will get harangued, i am a conservaliberal. which means i believe in the freedom to enjoy strip clubs AND carry a weapon. not at the same time necessarily, but i firmly believe in the death penalty, the right to own weapons, and protecting the innocent and the infirm from abuse by zealots of EITHER the right or left.

I do not believe the word "stalked" applies.

The single most universally agreed upon thing through all of this has been that Zimmerman should not have got out of the car.

I have not seen any good evidence that Zimmerman was "intent on engaging" anybody.

That is not truly Martin's own neighborhood. He did not live there, he was only there that day because he had been suspended from school. Yes, he had every right to be there, but it wasn't really "his own" neighborhood.

If I was walking through a gated neighborhood at night/in the dark (where I did not live, at that), especially as a teenager, I would have a good idea why somebody was following me while on the phone. I would suspect that they suspected me of something and that I looked like I did not belong.

If I was Zimmerman I like to think I would be smart enough to stay in the car, for so many reasons.

If I was Martin, even as the 17 year old I was, I'm fairly certain there is no way that myself and Zimmerman would have ever been within arms reach of one another.
__________________
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

I HIGHLY recommend Google Chrome and Adblock to all world wide web users. (I would have left GT a long time ago without these extensions!)
Warp is offline  
Old 04-13-2012, 13:46   #258
kensteele
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Leawood, KS
Posts: 7,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Not how it works. Dismissal of charges on a motion isn't the same thing as adjudication (acquittal/conviction) on the charges at trial.
I'm aware. My point was referencing how people felt.

"If you're ok with...then you should be ok with [vice versa]." Should have known that sentiment would never fly.

But I guess not. People simply are not ok with anything unless it benefits them. Just asking folks to think how they would feel if they were seeking justice and one person put an end to it (referring a judge accepting a motion that amounts to effectively trying the case IMO). If a judge drops this, a whole bunch of people are not going to be happy. But I'm not too familiar with this particular piece so I'll wait to see how it work.

Still, I don't understand why so many people hate what makes this country so great (trial by a jury of your peers). I understand folks need to exercise whatever they can as allowed by the process and they want to win but to abhor a trial by jury....strange to me. I mean I have read everything (not always on GT) from Zman getting off on technicalities to dropping this due to outlandish media coverage to filling lawsuits for false arrests. to be fair I've already read some crazy things on the other side, too. At this point, I would think if you know you are right, you should want this to go to trial and have your day in court and clear your good name and put this to bed.
kensteele is offline  
Old 04-13-2012, 13:49   #259
Warp
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
 
Warp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NE of Atlanta
Posts: 30,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by kensteele View Post
I'm aware. My point was referencing how people felt.

"If you're ok with...then you should be ok with [vice versa]." Should have known that sentiment would never fly.

But I guess not. People simply are not ok with anything unless it benefits them. Just asking folks to think how they would feel if they were seeking justice and one person put an end to it (referring a judge accepting a motion that amounts to effectively trying the case IMO). If a judge drops this, a whole bunch of people are not going to be happy. But I'm not too familiar with this particular piece so I'll wait to see how it work.

Still, I don't understand why so many people hate what makes this country so great (trial by a jury of your peers). I understand folks need to exercise whatever they can as allowed by the process and they want to win but to abhor a trial by jury....strange to me. I mean I have read everything (not always on GT) from Zman getting off on technicalities to dropping this due to outlandish media coverage to filling lawsuits for false arrests. to be fair I've already read some crazy things on the other side, too. At this point, I would think if you know you are right, you should want this to go to trial and have your day in court and clear your good name and put this to bed.

But a LOT of those people who won't be happy aren't looking for justice
__________________
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

I HIGHLY recommend Google Chrome and Adblock to all world wide web users. (I would have left GT a long time ago without these extensions!)

Last edited by Warp; 04-13-2012 at 13:49..
Warp is offline  
Old 04-13-2012, 13:51   #260
kensteele
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Leawood, KS
Posts: 7,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieKing View Post
You're mixing two things up.

They are going to have a hearing where Zimmerman is going to claim that he is immune to prosecution because he is legally justified to use self defense in the incident. If the judge agrees with him and drops the charges then that's it the case is over.

If the judge doesn't agree then Zimmerman goes to trial and he can be found not guilty or guilty. Either by a jury or if he declines a jury trial then by a judge.

A judge is not going to be able to just decide the case and that he's guilty and then sentence him. He's going to have a trial first unless he can convince the judge he was legally justified in the force he used and is immune to prosecution.
Understood, see my previous post.

In this particular case, in real life, if the judge grants such a motion, a billion people will believe the judge tried the case and found Zman not guilty and let him go in lieu of a fair jury of his peers. Don't believe me?
kensteele is offline  

 
  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:42.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 921
270 Members
651 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31