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Old 04-11-2012, 13:28   #61
agtman
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Originally Posted by bac1023 View Post
I always liked the Doubletap offerings.
Me too, especially Mike's early Golden Saber loads. But I intend to try some of the 10mm loads Underwood offers.

I've also tried and liked the 180gn load from BB. Great accuracy from my G20.

While not super-hot, the accuracy of Geo Arms' 155gn 10mm GDHP load (@ 1375fps) was EXCELLENT out of my S&W 1006 and 1076.

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Last edited by agtman; 04-11-2012 at 13:29..
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Old 04-12-2012, 16:06   #62
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Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin View Post
...Unfortunately, there isn't a lot of data available regarding what 10mm bullets do at 10mm velocity but from what little is available, it appears that the various 135 gr loads will fail to meet the FBI recommended 12" minimum penetration...
I'm guessing you haven't seen this test:


That's ~14.4" of tissue penetration demonstrated.. with excellent expansion and more retention of mass than you might expect.
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Old 04-12-2012, 16:17   #63
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As you said; it's a "fact" over penetration can happen and it's not fantasy. But with that said; it's also a bit of a hens tooth in the civilian world.

Let's use a revolver count of (6) to keep the numbers manageable. And let's try to stay away from Military and Swat operation and their problems in the CQC world about over penetration'.., blue on blue cross fire.
So from my experience and training I found that over penetration is something you have to be mindful of at all times.
Example; I use a G20 10mm in my home, which I keep in my night stand for those late night callers. I also have neighbors with children who live around us (suburbs) there's only my wife and I our kids are grown. The load I picked, 115gr Glaser Safety Slugs blue tip, because the caliber has over penetration characteristics that might allow a full house street load too pass through my window or wall into my neighbors homes.

With that said; as a former LEO of 25 years and a LE firearms instructor for most those years, I kind get a different take on the subject.

Going back to the 6 shot revolver; if 6 rounds were fired in a gun fight you could almost count (on an average) to have 4 to 5 of those rounds miss the suspect completely or grazing shots thought skin or closing and out again; do too a myriad of reasons. So... over penetration starts to become a moot point. I've investigated very few shootings, duty and non duty related where this wasn't the case.

The whole concept of having skin in the game on the two range is'.., how far will you go to take life or preserve your own.

In all fairness there no pat answer too the question here, just more questions.

Personally, I'm a big Elmer Keith fan... you want to win a gun fight; drop his blood pressure.. make a big hole, let a lot of hot blood out and cold air in, cut, tear and sever, artery's, capillary's and vein's, crush and break bone'.., thank you for playing!

Hydrostatic shock or hydraulic shock is ok.... but give me a through and through wound. I know Dept don't like to face this problem do to the vicarious liability of not providing ammunition that's "suppose" to stay in the suspect body.. but fact are fact; you win the game, make a mess of the other guy before he cans make a mess of you.

Just my 0.2
436


I like the way you talk. pretty much sums up my position

I just like to re-enforce one concept, the less effective your ammo, the more rounds you have to fire to finish the job. The more rounds you fire the greater chance of a complete miss. A complete miss is a greater danger than an over penetration.
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Old 04-12-2012, 16:19   #64
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Originally Posted by post-apocalyptic View Post
I'm guessing you haven't seen this test:

10mm 135gr Nosler JHP Wax Tube Test Glock 29 - YouTube

That's ~14.4" of penetration demonstrated.. with excellent expansion and more retention of mass than you might expect.
You know what? I had seen it, at least the numbers in 21carrier's thread but for some reason I remembered it as significantly less penetration. I still wouldn't want to rely on a round that doesn't hold together but I'm glad you pointed that out. I have no idea why I remembered the results wrong.

I'd still like to see more tests in calibrated ballistic gel. Even a 600fps .177 calibration shot into the wax each test would help to develop a baseline.
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Old 04-12-2012, 17:42   #65
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My Underwood order was delivered earlier, and I'm happy. That 200 grainer can tackle any problems I can forsee. I can't wait to water jug the 135's. Too bad I have to work this weekend.
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Old 04-12-2012, 18:59   #66
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Originally Posted by post-apocalyptic View Post
I'm guessing you haven't seen this test:

10mm 135gr Nosler JHP Wax Tube Test Glock 29 - YouTube

That's ~14.4" of tissue penetration demonstrated.. with excellent expansion and more retention of mass than you might expect.
21carriers tests are only relateable to themselves. the media he uses is neither calibrated nor made to any standard nor relateable to any other test medium.

IIRC he mixed that stuff himself from a recipie that he didnt quite follow right.

the tests are interesting but one can by no means say "this bullet will penetrate X amount in flesh because it penetrated this far and expanded like this in this tube"

His tests are a data point, but not really one that tells us much.
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Old 04-12-2012, 20:23   #67
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They tell us that X bullet expands or penetrates more than Y bullet or that one bullet might not hold together well at 10mm velocities. They also give a rough approximation of penetration.

If 21Carrier is internally consistent by using the exact same recipe every time and if he calibrated his media by firing a ~590fps .177 BB into it and posting the penetration of the BB along the main results, it would be more relevant. I don't remember whether he also tested well known defensive rounds such as 124gr 9mm Ranger T or 180gr .40 S&W Gold Dot, it would also be easier to compare the results.

21Carrier has done A LOT of work and added an incredible amount of information to a field that is a veritable desert, but additional data are always good.
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Old 04-12-2012, 20:53   #68
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Older review of DT's early 10mm 165gn & 180gn Golden Saber loads ...

http://www.bren-ten.com/agtman/id6.html

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Old 04-12-2012, 21:05   #69
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Although I personally support the 155 and 165 load
for SD use, I like to see the 135s hold up as
I think it gives better support to the 155s and 165 argument
at near nuclear speeds. That video on on 10-Ring shows
a guy shooting 135s at hi 10mm velocities through
pork ribs, water jug and cows heart and no one could look
at that test and say any human being wasnt going
to be hugely affected by the cartridge loading.
Wasnt there also a vicious cured ham that was killed
in the same set of videos ?

I've settled into the 155gr XTP at about 1480 FPS
from 5 inch barrel at just slightly over SAMMI max
pressures. I'm not saying it is the best but I dont
think anyone else can say anything different is
better.

Last edited by preventec47; 04-13-2012 at 05:50..
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:53   #70
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Originally Posted by Ethereal Killer View Post
21carriers tests are only relateable to themselves. the media he uses is neither calibrated nor made to any standard nor relateable to any other test medium.

IIRC he mixed that stuff himself from a recipie that he didnt quite follow right.

the tests are interesting but one can by no means say "this bullet will penetrate X amount...blah, blah, blah


So what exactly are you trying to say.. that 135gr nosler 10mm rnds aren't focking devastating to a human torso?

Imo, 21Carrier has contributed a lot more to this forum than I've seen from you, (in my admittedly short time here).
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Old 04-13-2012, 04:55   #71
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So what exactly are you trying to say.. that 135gr nosler 10mm rnds aren't focking devastating to a human torso?

Imo, 21Carrier has contributed a lot more to this forum than I've seen from you, (in my admittedly short time here).

I dunno I think the is pointing out that test such as these are only relative unto them selves and the testing medium. Many testing substances have been used throughout the years from wet sand to wet news papers and they do a good job of predicting how a given bullet will perform compared to another---in wet sand or wet newspapers. But hardly predict with certainty that a round will be "focking devastating to a human torso" The 10mm is a great round but put the kool aid down. It's ballistics are nothing exactly new in the realm of firearms. There are no numbers to it that haven't been seen before. .

Give it about 20 or 30 years of watching different calibers and different bullets and loadings being tested in all kinds of media, and being declared "positively the most devastating.........blah, blah, woof, wooof" and you beging to put things in to perspective. i can remember from my younger days when Winchester came out with their .32 acp 'silvertip' round. It creted quite a stir amongst some magazine writers who splattered some type of testing substance around and declared the "this new round brings the .32 acp into a whole new realm. With this kind of performance out of a gun that can be made smaller and lighter than a .380, the world of pocket pistols has been forever changed"

Ballistic test are nice, but it is a good thing to have people around to keep them in a rational perspective.
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Old 04-13-2012, 08:43   #72
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They tell us that X bullet expands or penetrates more than Y bullet or that one bullet might not hold together well at 10mm velocities. They also give a rough approximation of penetration.

...

21Carrier has done A LOT of work and added an incredible amount of information to a field that is a veritable desert, but additional data are always good.
This.

his tests are good data points but not DIRECTLY relatable to other testing or to flesh.

the more data points we have on bullets, velocity and performance, the better. it helps us develop a good "big picture" of things.

Of course 10% gel suffers the same problem as 21carriers test tubes, but it has just become the industry standard for testing and thus is relateable to other testing.

I put more weight on hunting pictures and hunting stories than I do gel, because that is actual testimony of bullet performance and animal reaction, which is the REAL goal of ballistic testing. An aggregate of hunting stories with the 10mm tells us a great deal. what I have gleaned is:

-the 135gr nosler does a great job of stopping and killing as long as you dont hit heavy bone or have to penetrate deeply. fragmentation is normal. wounds are shallow but large.
-the 180 and 200gr XTP's (and barnes coppers) tend to blow right thru an animal with a typical pistol bullet wound path, unless you hit bone.
-the 200+gr WFN hardcast bullets tend to just plain poke a hole in stuff with a typical but smaller bullet wound channel than the HP.

as I said... more data points.

the other monday morning quarterbacking I would do on 21's testing is that he tends towards the belief that more velocity is always a good thing, and with some pistol bullets thats just not the case. dropping a load 100fps can actually increase performance in some cases as it does not fragment or over expand some bullets. That little tidbit is something 10mm enthusiasts would do well to remember.

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Old 04-13-2012, 09:13   #73
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Bear in mind also that there is real world data about a similar caliber. back in the 70's Lee Jurras company "Super-Vel" had developed very fast 110 Hps for the .357 magnum at the same time that several PDs (San Francisco and San Antonio, most notably) were adopting the .41 mag. Now it was, through Jurras work, theoretically possible to develop a 135 gn .41 mag, but none was developed, or adopted. San Antonio PD went on to have 12 consecutive "one-shot-stops" on the street with the "police" load in the .41 mag, which featured either a 210, or 220 grain bullet at around the velocity of todays 200 gn 10mm offerings. I personally place a lot of confidence in a "street record" like that.
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Old 04-13-2012, 10:02   #74
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Originally Posted by preventec47 View Post

I've settled into the 155gr XTP at about 1480 FPS
from 5 inch barrel at just slightly over SAMMI max
pressures. I'm not saying it is the best but I dont
think anyone else can say anything different is
better.
For defense, I'd say that XTP is less than ideal. It performs poorly through clothing or barriers. Gold Dots, Golden Sabers, and other modern JHPs do much better than XTP. I'd say the XTP is better suited for big critters.

Even hunting and real world shootings can't accurately predict the effects of a round. Just more good data. Gel is used as an industry standard because it is the closest thing to tissue that is controllable and repeatable. It won't tell you what your load will do in tissue, but it will tell you what your load CAN do.
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Old 04-13-2012, 10:04   #75
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The numbers on a .41 mag are impressive. Anything coming out of a 10mm would be damaging. Lots of people have been killed by a single .22 cal. I think people over obsess about pure numbers. Just my lowly opinion.
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Old 04-13-2012, 10:13   #76
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The numbers on a .41 mag are impressive. Anything coming out of a 10mm would be damaging. Lots of people have been killed by a single .22 cal. I think people over obsess about pure numbers. Just my lowly opinion.
True, but would you choose a Buckmark for defense if you had other options? I believe you're right that some folks get more concerned about figures than getting the bullets where they need to go.
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Old 04-13-2012, 10:20   #77
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True, but would you choose a Buckmark for defense if you had other options? I believe you're right that some folks get more concerned about figures than getting the bullets where they need to go.
A well placed .22 is better than a misplaced or miss of anything else. I think whatever someone is comfortable and the most accurate with is the best choice. But no, I wouldn't choose a Buckmark but I wouldn't be afraid of it either. I'm more afraid of something unreliable. I have some guns that just aren't what you'd want to depend on if push came to shoot.
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Old 04-13-2012, 10:37   #78
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Roger. I'm just pointing out that although some folks might have their priorities wrong, many of us fully understand that shot placement is paramount and that reliability and recoil control allow you to place multiple hits in the vital areas of an attacker.... but once those rounds get there, we want as big a hole as we can get without compromising, accuracy, reliability, and recoil control.
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Old 04-13-2012, 14:06   #79
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Roger. I'm just pointing out that although some folks might have their priorities wrong, many of us fully understand that shot placement is paramount and that reliability and recoil control allow you to place multiple hits in the vital areas of an attacker.... but once those rounds get there, we want as big a hole as we can get without compromising, accuracy, reliability, and recoil control.
I'm all for gun control----being able to hit what you're aiming at. I hope and pray I never have to find out if I have that control. Big talk is always easier than keeping a cool head when the tension arises. I think there's a big difference in shooting a still target and one that shoots back.
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Old 04-13-2012, 16:00   #80
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Bear in mind also that there is real world data about a similar caliber. back in the 70's Lee Jurras company "Super-Vel" had developed very fast 110 Hps for the .357 magnum at the same time that several PDs (San Francisco and San Antonio, most notably) were adopting the .41 mag. Now it was, through Jurras work, theoretically possible to develop a 135 gn .41 mag, but none was developed, or adopted. San Antonio PD went on to have 12 consecutive "one-shot-stops" on the street with the "police" load in the .41 mag, which featured either a 210, or 220 grain bullet at around the velocity of todays 200 gn 10mm offerings. I personally place a lot of confidence in a "street record" like that.
This is why I like my carry load. And I want a .41 Mag snubbie sometime. For all you fellas squabbling about a 135's performance, don't forget that speed kills. 21carrier does a lot of legwork around here, and many are grateful for the effort he has put in. Like the ol' .380 argument... who want's to take two to the chest to find out? While I do not carry the 135, if that's all I had, you bet your ass I won't feel undergunned. That round will **** you up.
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