GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-10-2012, 13:00   #21
Brucev
Senior Member
 
Brucev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,189
[quote=ksg0245;18823119]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post

You're conflating the Constitutional prohibition of state-lead prayer with prayer being illegal in school; they aren't the same thing.

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/r..._guidance.html
Section 9524 of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act ("ESEA") of 1965, as amended by the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001, requires the Secretary to issue guidance on constitutionally protected prayer in public elementary and secondary schools. In addition, Section 9524 requires that, as a condition of receiving ESEA funds, a local educational agency ("LEA") must certify in writing to its State educational agency ("SEA") that it has no policy that prevents, or otherwise denies participation in, constitutionally protected prayer in public schools as set forth in this guidance.

The purpose of this guidance is to provide SEAs, LEAs, and the public with information on the current state of the law concerning constitutionally protected prayer in the public schools, and thus to clarify the extent to which prayer in public schools is legally protected.

http://www.allaboutpopularissues.org...-in-school.htm
Students may pray when not engaged in school activities or instruction, subject to the same rules designed to prevent material disruption of the educational program that are applied to other privately initiated expressive activities. ...

Students may organize prayer groups, religious clubs, and "see you at the pole" gatherings before school to the same extent that students are permitted to organize other non-curricular student activities groups. Such groups must be given the same access to school facilities for assembling as is given to other non-curricular groups, without discrimination because of the religious content of their expression. ...

When acting in their official capacities as representatives of the state, teachers, school administrators, and other school employees are prohibited by the Establishment Clause from encouraging or discouraging prayer, and from actively participating in such activity with students. Teachers may, however, take part in religious activities where the overall context makes clear that they are not participating in their official capacities. ...

If a school has a "minute of silence" or other quiet periods during the school day, students are free to pray silently, or not to pray, during these periods of time. Teachers and other school employees may neither encourage nor discourage students from praying during such time periods.

http://www.adl.org/religion_ps_2004/prayer.asp
Organized prayer in the public school setting, whether in the classroom or at a school-sponsored event, is unconstitutional. The only type of prayer that is constitutionally permissible is private, voluntary student prayer that does not interfere with the school's educational mission.
I am so very not impressed with your cut and paste. Now on to real life. Get yourself to school. Go get yourself a job in a local school system. Or... have a child in the local school system. Let you or them seek to exercise their Constitutional right to pray unimpeded, unrestricted, unencumbered by, etc. the administration of the school and just see how far they get. To restrict their right in the name of someone elses sensibilities is just a ruse used to restrict, impede, prevent them from exercising their Constitutional right. Anything to the contrary is just so much hog wallow.
Brucev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2012, 13:01   #22
Brucev
Senior Member
 
Brucev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
Your earlier claim was that, "Prayer is outlawed in public schools."

I'm not clear, have you backpeddaled from outlawed to restricted/suppressed, or are you sticking with outlawed?

-ArtificialGrape
Why would I backpedal? To think such a thing is your error, not mine.
Brucev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2012, 13:09   #23
Brucev
Senior Member
 
Brucev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,189
If we allow teachers to lead the class in prayer does the teacher get to decide which prayer? Yes. And of course if they can't do the job right, the school board can remove them. The school board would answer to the parents for the quality of their own administration.

To which God? Can a wiccan teacher have the class participate in a ceremony to honor the Goddess? Personally I'd prayer to be Christian prayer. If that rubbed anyone else the wrong way, well they could go somewhere else... or organize a private school of their own. If the school board hired someone who turned out to be a pagan, etc., then they would need to fire them. Very cool.

Does the Muslim teacher get to have his class bow to Mecca a few times a day? Same process as last question.

Can the parents be required to supply a prayer rug? Christians don't normally need such things, so the answer is "No." If that did not suit those who saw things differently, fine. They can always establish their own private schools.
Brucev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2012, 13:30   #24
fox3091
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 40
Bruce, as a high school graduate of the class of 2009 and a Christian, I have to respectfully disagree. Not once during my school career did I ever feel repressed in my religious expression. People prayed at lunches, we had study groups and a Non Denominational worship group at school. The only time I saw these laws at work were when it came to teachers sharing their opinions without stating that it was their personal view first.

Now, the Wiccans and Muslims and other non Christians I knew did not seem to have that freedom.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine
fox3091 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2012, 13:30   #25
ksg0245
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
I am so very not impressed with your cut and paste.
I apologize for presenting evidence against you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
Now on to real life.
Real life, or Christian life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
Get yourself to school.
Thanks, I've been.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
Go get yourself a job in a local school system.
Have you done so? As it happens, I work in a community college system, although not actually on a campus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
Or... have a child in the local school system.
Easily done, my son is there this very moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
Let you or them seek to exercise their Constitutional right to pray unimpeded, unrestricted, unencumbered by, etc. the administration of the school and just see how far they get.
Your claim in post 9: "Prayer is outlawed in public schools."

Your claim in post 11: "The sc removed prayer from school."

It looks like now you're saying "students can't pray whenever they want." Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding. Is it your opinion that some students should be allowed to interrupt the education of their fellow students any time they feel like?

Is it your opinion the students who are at school to get an education should have their rights superseded by those who want to interrupt school for prayer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
To restrict their right in the name of someone elses sensibilities is just a ruse used to restrict, impede, prevent them from exercising their Constitutional right.
Which is it: restrict or prevent? They aren't the same thing. Should nothing be restricted, or just the stuff you want? Are you equally outraged at, for example, the restriction on the rights of Muslims to pray in school?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
Anything to the contrary is just so much hog wallow.
ksg0245 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2012, 13:33   #26
ksg0245
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
Why would I backpedal?
Because your earlier claim was shown to be in error.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
To think such a thing is your error, not mine.
You first claimed ""Prayer is outlawed in public schools" and "The sc removed prayer from school." You then said "the right of students and faculty to pray in school is restricted."

It isn't an error to point out that "restricted" isn't equivalent to "outlawed" or "removed."
ksg0245 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2012, 13:42   #27
ksg0245
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
If we allow teachers to lead the class in prayer does the teacher get to decide which prayer? Yes. And of course if they can't do the job right, the school board can remove them. The school board would answer to the parents for the quality of their own administration.

To which God? Can a wiccan teacher have the class participate in a ceremony to honor the Goddess? Personally I'd prayer to be Christian prayer. If that rubbed anyone else the wrong way, well they could go somewhere else... or organize a private school of their own.
What prevents parents desiring a religious education for their children doing just that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
If the school board hired someone who turned out to be a pagan, etc., then they would need to fire them. Very cool.[/I]
It's "very cool" to violate the religious freedom of non-christians?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
IDoes the Muslim teacher get to have his class bow to Mecca a few times a day? Same process as last question.
It looks like you're saying Muslims don't have the same religious rights Christians do, is that correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
Can the parents be required to supply a prayer rug? Christians don't normally need such things, so the answer is "No." If that did not suit those who saw things differently, fine. They can always establish their own private schools.
So can Christians.
ksg0245 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2012, 20:43   #28
ArtificialGrape
CLM Number 265
Charter Lifetime Member
 
ArtificialGrape's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 5,950
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
Why would I backpedal? To think such a thing is your error, not mine.
Your earlier claim was that prayer was outlawed. You have been demonstrated to be wrong, and now you shift your focus to prayer being restricted. You fail to present evidence to support your claim and instead argue about what you would expect in a hypothetical anecdotal scenario.

Any chance that you'd care to present evidence supporting your earlier claim that prayer is outlawed?

-ArtificialGrape
ArtificialGrape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 06:28   #29
Brucev
Senior Member
 
Brucev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,189
[QUOTE=ksg0245;18826598]What prevents parents desiring a religious education for their children doing just that?

We who do not want our children polluted by your toxic paganism are in the right. If you want to pedal your poison, you can have the fun of paying for it yourself.

It's "very cool" to violate the religious freedom of non-christians? Religious freedom? Really. Your "religious?"



It looks like you're saying Muslims don't have the same religious rights Christians do, is that correct? Muslims? Haven't ever seen a muslim... except when they were crashing airplanes into buildings, cutting the heads off hostages and blowing the brains out of women in soccer fields.



So can Christians. Why should we? If you want to continue to destroy this nation, do it on your own dime.
Brucev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 06:31   #30
Brucev
Senior Member
 
Brucev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
Your earlier claim was that prayer was outlawed. You have been demonstrated to be wrong, and now you shift your focus to prayer being restricted. You fail to present evidence to support your claim and instead argue about what you would expect in a hypothetical anecdotal scenario.

Any chance that you'd care to present evidence supporting your earlier claim that prayer is outlawed?

-ArtificialGrape
Evidence? Surely you jest! You must be under the mistaken impression that I care what you think or value your opinion. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Brucev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 06:52   #31
ArtificialGrape
CLM Number 265
Charter Lifetime Member
 
ArtificialGrape's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 5,950
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
Evidence? Surely you jest! You must be under the mistaken impression that I care what you think or value your opinion. Nothing could be further from the truth.
No worry, I wasn't actually expecting that you'd start supporting your false assertions with evidence at this point.

-ArtificialGrape
ArtificialGrape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 07:45   #32
Brucev
Senior Member
 
Brucev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
No worry, I wasn't actually expecting that you'd start supporting your false assertions with evidence at this point.

-ArtificialGrape
You must grow up and learn to live with disappointment.
Brucev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 08:14   #33
Geko45
CLM Number 135
Smartass Pilot
 
Geko45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Short final
Posts: 14,728


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
You must grow up and learn to live with disappointment.
You need to grow up and learn that you aren't nearly as insightful as you think you are.
__________________
Peace is our profession, war is just a hobby...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Geko45 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 08:44   #34
Animal Mother
Not Enough Gun
 
Animal Mother's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 15,353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
Evidence? Surely you jest! You must be under the mistaken impression that I care what you think or value your opinion. Nothing could be further from the truth.
You must find living in a heterogeneous society a difficult thing. By the same token, why should anyone care about your thoughts or opinions? At least ArtificialGrape manages to support his position with actual facts rather than childish petulance.
__________________
"Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair. Or beatin's. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back."

Last edited by Animal Mother; 04-11-2012 at 08:45..
Animal Mother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 08:47   #35
ksg0245
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
We who do not want our children polluted by your toxic paganism
I'm sorry you think reality is "toxic paganism."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
are in the right.
It's true you have the right to believe whatever you'd like. You don't have the right to impose those beliefs on others or require others to accomodate your beliefs, though. Too bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
If you want to pedal your poison, you can have the fun of paying for it yourself.
You mean while your "poison" is payed for with my tax dollars? That seems fair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
Religious freedom? Really.
Yeah, you know, that thing mentioned in the Constitution. You seem to be unaware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
Your "religious?"
Unfortunately for you, it doesn't matter what I am, nor does it matter what anyone else is. EVERYBODY is protected, not just your favorite group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
Muslims? Haven't ever seen a muslim... except when they were crashing airplanes into buildings, cutting the heads off hostages and blowing the brains out of women in soccer fields.
Nice dodge. I was almost completely unaware that you failed to address the question.

I suspect you're lying about never having seen a Muslim, but that hardly matters, does it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
Why should we?
Because that darned Constitution says so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
If you want to continue to destroy this nation, do it on your own dime.
ksg0245 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 08:50   #36
ksg0245
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
Evidence? Surely you jest! You must be under the mistaken impression that I care what you think or value your opinion. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Careful, you'll get a bruise bumping into reality that hard.
ksg0245 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 09:45   #37
Brucev
Senior Member
 
Brucev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksg0245 View Post
Careful, you'll get a bruise bumping into reality that hard.
You obviously have experience walking around in the dark. If I were to emulate you, I'd have cause to be concerned. But since I walk in the light, I have no problem recognizing reality... or changing it when it suits me.
Brucev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 09:46   #38
ArtificialGrape
CLM Number 265
Charter Lifetime Member
 
ArtificialGrape's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 5,950
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
You must grow up and learn to live with disappointment.
Not disappointed at all -- you have met my precise expectations for this conversation.

Sorry to distract you from evangelizing that gays should be despised and rejected. Carry on.

-ArtificialGrape
ArtificialGrape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 10:05   #39
Japle
John, Viera, Fl
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Viera, Florida
Posts: 966
Quote:
Posted by Brucev:
But since I walk in the light, I have no problem recognizing reality... or changing it when it suits me.
Oh, good! He thinks he can change reality!

(Get the net!!)
Japle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 11:10   #40
ksg0245
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
You obviously have experience walking around in the dark.
Of course I do; darkness is part of reality. It gets dark in caves and at night, for example. I don't stop walking around just because it's dark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
If I were to emulate you, I'd have cause to be concerned.
Well, I hope you never have to get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom or anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
But since I walk in the light, I have no problem recognizing reality...
Since you have no problem recognizing reality, have you noticed that Christians aren't the only people in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
or changing it when it suits me.
I'm curious what would precipitate you changing, given your disdain for evidence and rejection of points of view other than your own.
ksg0245 is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 18:25.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,226
385 Members
841 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31