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Old 04-09-2012, 13:59   #21
concretefuzzynuts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
In .40 the heavier bullets have always been softer shooting than the lighter ones in my opinion.

The Hydra Shok is a classic non bonded hollow point round. It's core and jacket are separate and are kind of pressed together. These type of bullets tend to expand a little easier but also tend to shed their jackets when passing through tough barriers. Some have claimed that the Hydra Shok has issues of not wanting to reliably expand. I don't know if this is true or not. The Hydra Shok is a older bullet design. That's not to say there is anything wrong with it though.

The Gold Dot is a bonded round. This means the jacket and core are chemically etched (bonded) together. This makes the bullet more resistant to fragmenting on impact and tends to hold together a little better through tough barriers. Some say the bonded rounds don't expand as well as non bonded rounds but that's opened for debate as my experience as well as the experiences of others has not shown such.

The Gold Dot is a modern bullet design.

It all comes down to what you want your bullet to do. For a Duty round, I would take the Gold Dot over the Hydra Shok any day. For that matter, I'll take the Gold Dot's period!

I either carry Speer Gold Dot or Ranger T series in my guns. There is other good ammo out there but these two bullet designs have been used in many shootings and have proven themselves over the years. There isn't any doubt that some of the other new bullet designs will prove themselves in the years to come but I'll stay with I know works until then.

Awesome answer.
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Old 04-09-2012, 16:07   #22
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The 165 grain Gold Dot is a hot round and has a good reputation in police shootings for one shot stops. I was issued the Federal Hydra Shok and put down injured deer with it. An OIS the bad guy was hit three times and two rounds exited. The Hydra Shok is an old design. The 180 grain Gold Dots have two well documented police shootings that caused many agencies to switch to different bullet weights 155 and 165.
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Old 04-09-2012, 17:43   #23
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The 180gr HST had no issues dealing with auto windshields or sheet steel while having superior performance through other intermediate barriers. With modern non-bonded designs like HST, the concern over maintaining bullet integrity is largely unfounded.

For those who aren't familiar with ballistics testing advancements since the 70's, here's the rationale regarding iwba 4 layer denim testing.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tact...2/0604-02a.htm


Note that it was developed with support of a major LE agency. It also produced results that correlated quite well with actual OIS's.

Last edited by DRT; 04-09-2012 at 17:54..
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Old 04-09-2012, 19:50   #24
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Hunter one what shooting's are you referring to?
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Old 04-10-2012, 08:42   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hunter won View Post
The 165 grain Gold Dot is a hot round and has a good reputation in police shootings for one shot stops. I was issued the Federal Hydra Shok and put down injured deer with it. An OIS the bad guy was hit three times and two rounds exited. The Hydra Shok is an old design. The 180 grain Gold Dots have two well documented police shootings that caused many agencies to switch to different bullet weights 155 and 165.
Could you expand a little on this please ? I know many PD's still carry anyone of the three weights but those that were caused to switch--what were they expecting to gain ? Are you referring to the shooting where the FBI was asked to chip in analyzing why the Gold Dots 180 gr. failed to stop the perp after several hits ? that perp was also hit by numerous .223's.

Last edited by Glockbuster; 04-11-2012 at 06:28..
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:41   #26
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Originally Posted by DRT View Post
...For those who aren't familiar with ballistics testing advancements since the 70's, here's the rationale regarding iwba 4 layer denim testing.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tact...604-02a.htm...

Exactly, and THE most important part of that link is, and I quote:

Quote:
...
Therefore the four-layer heavy denim test is NOT intended to simulate any type of clothing; it is merely an engineering evaluation tool to assess the ability of JHP handgun bullets to resist plugging and expand robustly...
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Old 04-10-2012, 13:26   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
In .40 the heavier bullets have always been softer shooting than the lighter ones in my opinion.

The Hydra Shok is a classic non bonded hollow point round. It's core and jacket are separate and are kind of pressed together. These type of bullets tend to expand a little easier but also tend to shed their jackets when passing through tough barriers. Some have claimed that the Hydra Shok has issues of not wanting to reliably expand. I don't know if this is true or not. The Hydra Shok is a older bullet design. That's not to say there is anything wrong with it though.

The Gold Dot is a bonded round. This means the jacket and core are chemically etched (bonded) together. This makes the bullet more resistant to fragmenting on impact and tends to hold together a little better through tough barriers. Some say the bonded rounds don't expand as well as non bonded rounds but that's opened for debate as my experience as well as the experiences of others has not shown such.

The Gold Dot is a modern bullet design.

It all comes down to what you want your bullet to do. For a Duty round, I would take the Gold Dot over the Hydra Shok any day. For that matter, I'll take the Gold Dot's period!

I either carry Speer Gold Dot or Ranger T series in my guns. There is other good ammo out there but these two bullet designs have been used in many shootings and have proven themselves over the years. There isn't any doubt that some of the other new bullet designs will prove themselves in the years to come but I'll stay with I know works until then.

, there are some good points here. At the end of the day its Pepsi vs Coke or Ford vs Chevy. Each is a good round and each has its following whether it be the Speer GDHP, Fed HST, Win Ranger T-Series. You cant go wrong with any of these. Each person will post a good reason for their round and its usually valid. This is actually been a pretty good thread to read. Mas Ayoob said before he carried in 9mm the Win 127 +P+ and in the 9mm realm there are arguments for 115, 124, 124 +P, 147. In the 40 S&W its generally 165 or 180 but there are some 135 and 155 fans and a lot of its based on higher velocity. For me 40 S&W in 180 has a slightly less recoil/snappier feeling and I'd use more for target. For carry I'd go with the 165. To each his own.


www.ballistics101.com/40_caliber_sw.php

These were some older tests done, the data is interesting for penetration, velocity and expansion. Again these are some older tests.

.40 S&W 180 grain Federal HydraShok JHP

Test Gun S&W M4006 Barrel Length 4" Velocity 969 fps

Bare Gelatin
Penetration Expansion
14.15" 0.69"

Clothed Gelatin
Penetration
Expansion

19.80" 0.59"


.40 S&W 165 grain CCI/Speer Gold Dot JHP,

Test Gun SIG P229 Barrel Length 4" Velocity 1076 fps

Bare Gelatin
Penetration Expansion
13.05" 0.65"

Clothed Gelatin
Penetration Expansion
15.80"
0.60"

www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/40s&w.htm






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Last edited by TSAX; 04-10-2012 at 13:32..
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Old 04-10-2012, 14:14   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glockbuster View Post
Could you expand a little on this please ? I know many PD's still carry anyone of the three weights but those that were caused to switch--what were they expencting to gain ? Are you referring to the shooting where the FBI was asked to chip in analyzing why the Gold Dots 180 gr. failed to stop the perp after several hits ? that perp was also hit by numerous .223's.
That is one incident which involved the .223, the other was over 17 hits of 180 grain Gold Dots from a G22. Many agencies did switch to the 155 and 165 grain loads in .40 cal. While some others dropped the .40 for the .45 ACP and .45 GAP. The Hydra Shok is an older design. Test's were performed by an ammunition manufacturer and many agencies wished they never adopted the .40 when they compared it to the other caliber.
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Old 04-11-2012, 06:33   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hunter won View Post
That is one incident which involved the .223, the other was over 17 hits of 180 grain Gold Dots from a G22. Many agencies did switch to the 155 and 165 grain loads in .40 cal. While some others dropped the .40 for the .45 ACP and .45 GAP. The Hydra Shok is an older design. Test's were performed by an ammunition manufacturer and many agencies wished they never adopted the .40 when they compared it to the other caliber.
OK, interesting how those agencies action taken was inconsistent with the FBI findings, which concluded that the 180 grain ammo had performed exactly as expected and the .223 had not done so well. And that some individuals are just tough nails against bullets. A lot of misconception about the Gold Dots failing miserably.
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Old 04-11-2012, 07:33   #30
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Id like to read these findings, any links?
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Old 04-11-2012, 07:45   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glockbuster View Post
OK, interesting how those agencies action taken was inconsistent with the FBI findings, which concluded that the 180 grain ammo had performed exactly as expected and the .223 had not done so well. And that some individuals are just tough nails against bullets. A lot of misconception about the Gold Dots failing miserably.
Yes scary that that skinny 18 year old kid was able to take all those shots from both the .223 and .40 and still put up a fight with the cops while he was being restrained. The Gold Dot is an excellent bullet. Texas DPS had many failures with the .45 ACP and swithed to different ammo and went to the .357 Sig to solve the problem. Many agencies may have used these OIS as a way to change ammo or switch to newer weapons.
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Old 04-11-2012, 09:46   #32
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I kind of like this quote:

Quote:
This requirement was selected after experimentation to provide a standardized, inexpensive, and precisely defined soft barrier that was a stressing but reasonable protocol for ammunition evaluation; it does not represent a simulation of specific clothing.
Meaning they chose denim because it is adequate, cheap, easily obtained, and reproducible by various testers. The best measure of results would be, of course, results. The Marshall & Sanow approach would, in theory, be the best measure of real world performance of handgun rounds because it is a measure of real world bullet performance. Given a large enough sample size, the variables average out and the results are what they are.

And, as a warning to those who get too wrapped up in measuring final expanded bullet diameters:

Quote:
As a result, measured expanded bullet diameter is much less useful than penetration depth as a performance parameter in an ammunition specification.
Hit what you're aiming at and keep shooting until the threat stops or you have to turn your attention to another threat.
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