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Old 04-07-2012, 10:17   #26
Andrew Wiggin
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I did not but that is consistent with my experience with rifle ammo. Velocity seems to be the biggest factor in metal penetration.

ETA: assuming other factors are roughly equal, of course. Sectional density is also a big factor, but doesn't seem to be as important as velocity.

Last edited by Andrew Wiggin; 04-07-2012 at 10:18..
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Old 04-07-2012, 11:30   #27
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Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin View Post
Not trying to be a jerk but HDDs are not ballistic gel and the bullets pictured aren't expanded so much as smooshed. I've seen several independent tests of XTPs into gel or water after passing through denim, drywall, sheet metal, etc. The results were less than impressive. I'd like to work up a woods load with 200gr XTP and 800X so maybe I'll do my own test. Can you fill us in on the details of the denim tests you've done?
The HD wasn't a test. It was the target for firing the first 17 rounds of my new 9mm. The ammo just happened to be what I carry and shoot in my PF-9.

And your far from being a jerk.

I again have never had any issues with XTP's concerning any media I've shot them into. I gave up on informal testing years ago. It became clear I could never duplicate what would happen to a bullet in a gun fight.

I do have access to other info that's not available to the average joe on the street or even in the know when it comes to the aftermath of a shooting. I once worked at a metro downtown hospital in my area. And still have a very close relationship with this hospital and staff. From administration to house keeping, doc's, nurse's and techs. Seeing that this is a teaching hospital they have a medical library that is always growing. And a collection of bullet's and surrounding tissue and organs that's very impressive. And have seen the damage first hand that projectiles do to the human structure. From the ER, Surgical efforts to the morgue.

Bottom line: You can't predict what a bullet is going to do in or around the human body. You can get a lab coat out, wear a pocket protector and have a farm of the most advance computers and software the world has ever seen and enough gel to render a nuke useless. And all you will get is a SPEC result.

A few examples:

A man I've known since the 5th grade. We grew up together. Learned to shoot, reload and hunted together. He did everything at a very high level. If it wasn't perfect. It was not right. He decided to kill himself one day. Should be a easy task for him. Out comes a K-Frame Smith loaded with +P .38 Gold Dots, 158gn. That round should do it. Didn't, Blew a hole the size of a silver dollar in his forehead and only scramble one square inch of his frontal lobe. One would have thought the load would have turned his brain into pink slime. First thought was it was a squib or light load. Setting right next to him was a fresh box of 50 of his reloads, plus the other 5 rounds in the pistol. The investigation showed he had a very thick forehead bone structure and that his rounds where in good shape.

Another case involves a employee of the hospital I worked at. By day he was a lead man on house keeping staff. By night he was a leader of a local Crip Click. On a Sunday evening he had been detained by the local PD. Was in cuffs standing next to the detaining officer when a Blood ran up on the pair and shot Rodney in the chest with a sawed off pistol gripped .22 mag bolt action rifle. That round blew a hole completely through his chest big enough to put your fist through him, without touching him. I saw his remains with my own eyes and read the police info in the file Monday when I came to work. Explain that with gel and common knowledge.

For me I can buy XTP's anywhere. Load them how I want and can afford to practice, plink and drill with a bullet I can use if I ever need to. I can't do that with Gold Dot's. 95% of my past, current and future loaded up ammo is SD, HD and offensively ready for action.

It's all a crap shoot!
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Old 04-07-2012, 22:52   #28
Ethereal Killer
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Originally Posted by preventec47 View Post
BTW, did you guys see the youtube video where the 10mm
guy was testing a variety of 10mm loads from Glock to
see which penetrated sheet metal best ? Surprisingly
only the very fast 135 and 150/155 gr loads penetrated
the sheet metal. The larger slower FMJ types ( 180/200)
etc all flattened and made big dimples in the metal.

My money would have been on the large FMJs but I would
have lost my money.

speed is almost always the key to getting thru steel.

the other way is to make a projectile that is harder than the steel you are trying to penetrate, but even then speed is still vital.

for everything else the ability to retain momentum is the key factor. (ie. weight)
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:43   #29
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The funny thing about people like this is that they actually think people believe their BS, rather than simply write off everything else they say in the future as utter bat guano.
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Old 04-09-2012, 11:43   #30
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You can tailor a test medium to prove almost any theory you want. Just like the "caliber wars" in general. If you crystal ball works well enough to tell you what the "Perfect gun/caliber/load" would be, the crystal ball should tell you to stay out of the situation in the first place. Everyone makes their choice based on their perceived need and what concerns them the most. Those who are unfortunate enough to "see the Elephant" generally end up making their choice work for something other than what they had in mind.
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Old 04-09-2012, 14:10   #31
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The point of test media, gel in particular, is objective, repeatable data. "Tailoring" the media produces NO useful information.
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:04   #32
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Silicone in Hollow Points

Originally Posted by preventec47 View Post
I am considering filling the nose hollow point up with
silicone caulk in all my hollow point bullets. It would
be similar to all the other plastic tip bullets but without
the point. It probably would not add more than a grain
or two but would certainly keep the hole from filling
up with other stuff. The slight possibility I guess might
be that being filled up with silicone would be worse
than with clothing. Nah not really, too much trouble.
Neat idea though I think. I am surprised we have not
seen any mfg do it already
The following is from a thread about that very subject. (no mention of XTP's though)

"I beg your pardon but in my own experience, this method does work. UMC 45 JHP are nearly incapable of expanding under any circumstances, I've witnessed them fall out of a walking talking GSW victim. The umc jhp 45 literally fell out of the hole in his portly side, completely pristine and undeformed.
Recently bought a box because they were cheap at walmart, value pack. Also picked up a tube of RTV Silicone. I painstakingly filled and wiped all the rounds tips flush. After theyd cured into semi flexible polymer tips, I went to the range and began shooting into wet phonebooks, mud and water jugs, all expanded to the size of deer slugs. The couple I didnt modify failed to expand at all. test gun was a glock 21 gen 4.
I went to work on my T series ammo after that, using a small syringe to fill the tiny 9mm cavity. Ranger T ammo would be perfect if not for its Denim nemmisis. Well, after making the upgrade, I placed a folded pair of old wranglers over a 5gal bucket of mud and fired into it with a Glock 26. the perfectly expanded razor sharp petaled flower was in the dirt just behind the bucket.
So I repeated the silicone filling procedure until I had done all my gold dots, t series, berrys hp and every other hp round I could find, All have behaved like Critical Defense rounds but their specialty jacket design still performed as designed, sort of the icing on the cake. Its onl a matter of time before every major defensive load comes standard with a silicone denim guard plug in it, much like how the polymer tip took over in the rifle ammo market. your mileage will not vary, but don't take my word for it, go make some for yourself, one $4 tube of RTV SILICONE will fill over 1000 rounds. but itll take awhile."

"I use Permatex red RTV (rated to 650 degrees) in Golden Sabre Bonded and it's works very well. I cannot say that this ammo does not work well without the RTV. I beleive they do work very well but the RTV provides a little extra assurance
in winter when heavy clothing is common."
“Our lives come from God. So does our right to defend them”
There is only one gun law in this country, the 2nd Amendment. All else is bureaucratic nonsense that I choose to comply with or not at my discretion.
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Old 04-09-2013, 12:15   #33
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I don't know where that guy got the idea that Ranger-Ts or Gold Dots have difficulty with denim.
Just here for the 10mm death ray talk.

Last edited by Andrew Wiggin; 04-09-2013 at 12:18..
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