GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-05-2012, 18:12   #61
steveksux
Massive Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
That is exactly accurate. Some state laws are written such that a reasonable belief is necessary, same as in defense of yourself
True enough. BUT some states reasonable belief for intervening in third party situations is not good enough. You must be right, not just reasonable. Kentucky sounds like one, and I believe Michigan is another (at least that's what was stated in my cpl class).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
That is also pretty much the law in some places. Here in Kentucky, if you use deadly force to defend a third party and it turns out the third party did not have the right to use deadly force in his own defense (he was the bad guy, it was a joke and he knew it, etc.) you have NO legal justification, no matter what you thought was happening.
Everyone needs to know what the law is in the state they are in before going in with guns blazing so to speak...

Randy
steveksux is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 19:39   #62
ModGlock17
Senior Member
 
ModGlock17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lalaland USA
Posts: 2,641
Here's a long look into a real shooting (with video). http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.p...=53502&start=0

Give you a sense what went on afterwards.
ModGlock17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 20:13   #63
blkt2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 155
I did when I was 17 (1988) and spent just over 4 months in jail before I was cleared.

Your best bet is to mind your own business unless it is a pure innocent who will be harmed by your inaction.

Last edited by blkt2; 04-05-2012 at 20:15..
blkt2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 20:18   #64
GKglock324
GKshooter
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 35
real life situation was a woman being chased by a guy with a gun..her clothes were ripped, I may have posted this before, but assume nothing. Turned out the woman was a fugitive and was being pursued by under cover officers..jump the gun and shoot the guy would be a bad idea...
GKglock324 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 22:47   #65
Mister_Beefy
Legal & Proper
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
You're making the effort, so will I.


No, that's not what I said and it's not what the thread's about. Since you brought it up, I'll address it: Every living creature fights for its life. That right falls firmly into the category of "natural rights" and exsists totally outside of any society. From the view of a religious man, the right is accorded by God whether or not the individual recognizes Him.

Dealing with intervention, now:


I actually agree with you as far as the expansion of government goes. The sub-category of statute and common law, though, is pretty well developed and not evolving much at all. If you look on the sources for our statutes and the philosophy that shaped them, you'll find that they're profoundly Judeo-Christian. Those ethics do not value life equally. The innocent life is always more important than the aggressor, and this dates back to Moses. (There are specific exemptions from blood-guilt in the OT for defense of one's home, for example.)

So when the court applies the law to the facts of the case, they're looking at literally thousands of years of thought that gave birth to the current law. Overwhelmingly, if you do the moral thing as codified from Moses through Thomas Aquinas into the Magna Carta and finally our system, the law will back you. The hairs are split on how a given place treats mistakes of fact; we're all in agreement on what righteous intent is.
ok, I get where you're coming from.

but I also agree with what bren said, sometimes things are more complicated that just "be good and everything will be ok"

and issue that is sometimes simple, but often complicated.
Mister_Beefy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2012, 00:33   #66
HarleyGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Concealment View Post
CCW holders are held by the justice system with the "Higher standard ofcare". While some states' laws allow deadly force to be used to stop afelony; it doesn't mean a permit holder can be a freelance cop. As sad as a situation can be, using deadly force to save a stranger's life is"Not recommended"!
Not ever being in a situation where I've had to even unholster a gun in a self defense situation I would hope that if I encountered a situation where the loss of innnocent life was at stake that I could help, either by calling 911 or other non-lethal methods before resorting to using my firearm.

I hope that I'm NEVER in a position where I have to use lethal force, for myself or anyone else, but I would hope that if my wife (or any other innocent person) was being attacked and facing great bodily harm, rape, or death that someone would step up and attempt to stop the attack if they could do so safely.

As another poster stated, shooting (or killing) someone is a very serious than can impact your life and future in many negative ways.

Last edited by HarleyGuy; 04-06-2012 at 00:34..
HarleyGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2012, 01:01   #67
fredj338
Senior Member
 
fredj338's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: so.cal.
Posts: 22,229
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarryTexas View Post


Unless I was nearly 100% certain that I knew what the situation was I wouldn't use deadly force...

The potential victim would likely have to be a kid or something like that for me to use deadly force to protect them.

If it was two adults or something like that... I have no idea what is going on and I might very well shoot the wrong person.
It would have to be more than 100% certain. In many situations, you see something but do you really know what is going on? Say you hear screaming, sprint around the corner & see some big guy pounding the crap out of a smaller guy. You engage, he refuses to stop, maybe even turns on you, so you shoot him. Come to find out, he was the vic & the guy he was pounding was the attacker & there is a knife laying nearby. You just never know. There are probably less than 5 instances where I could be 100% sure at a glance what is going on, everything else is an educated guess. I am not risking everything for an educated guess. In most cases not directly involving you or your family, it's better to do the smart thing instead of the perceived right thing.
__________________
"Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified".

Last edited by fredj338; 04-06-2012 at 01:03..
fredj338 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2012, 04:58   #68
Bren
NRA Life Member
 
Bren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 37,663
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveksux View Post
Everyone needs to know what the law is in the state they are in before going in with guns blazing so to speak...

Randy
Another point I teach in classes, is that not knowing the law can not only result in you doing something that is illegal, it can also result in you losing the fight because you hesitate to do something that is legal.
__________________
Quote:
This is the internet - you will never learn to shoot here.
- Me, 2014.
Bren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2012, 05:21   #69
OldArcher
Gospel Carrier
 
OldArcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 377
Did you really have to ask this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy_283 View Post
This may be a an easy to answer/stupid question but can you legally take down a perpetrator threatening another's life in an altercation in a public place as long as you have the right to have a gun in that location?

*by altercation I mean like an event where there is a completely innocent victim involved
Simply put, yes.

Protect the innocent. Make sure that there's no other alternative, but when sure, take out the trash...

As you may not get the opportunity to yell, "Drop Your Weapon," try to make sure that there are witnesses to the event. There may not be any, so make sure that you have a good lawyer on speed dial.

Regardless, defend and protect the innocent...

OA, out...
__________________
"Confess with your mouth, that 'Jesus is Lord,' believing in your heart that God raised Him from the Dead, and you will be saved, for with the heart, man believes and is justified, and with his profession of faith, he is saved." Romans 10:9-10.
OldArcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2012, 06:45   #70
steveksux
Massive Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
Another point I teach in classes, is that not knowing the law can not only result in you doing something that is illegal, it can also result in you losing the fight because you hesitate to do something that is legal.
Very good point, its a bit of threading the needle. Neither too anxious, nor too hesitant. You need to know the law before going in guns blazing, or guns grazing...

Randy
steveksux is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2012, 06:52   #71
Misty02
Senior Member
 
Misty02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,980
Quote:
Originally Posted by ModGlock17 View Post
Here's a long look into a real shooting (with video). http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.p...=53502&start=0

Give you a sense what went on afterwards.
I followed that one for a while. Needless to say, I learned more than a thing or two from his experience.

.
__________________


"In making tactical dispositions, the highest pitch you can attain is to conceal them." - Sun Tzu

Outpost Member #69
Misty02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2012, 09:45   #72
ModGlock17
Senior Member
 
ModGlock17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lalaland USA
Posts: 2,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
Another point I teach in classes, is that not knowing the law can not only result in you doing something that is illegal, it can also result in you losing the fight because you hesitate to do something that is legal.
Bren, you've never failed to say thoughtful things well !
ModGlock17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2012, 21:17   #73
Search
Senior Member
 
Search's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 352
Most people will never act out the actions they previously thought they could. It's easy to sit and tell yourself you would do this if that ever happened. Actually breaking through the mental barriers in a high stress situation and performing isn't an easy task. This being the internet there is no point. So let's go through some possibilities to consider before involving yourself in a situation.

Let's pretend that this being a "public location" there are other people besides yourself, the bad guy, and the innocent victim.

1) Do you know the full story? Do you know why the bad guy is fixing to harm the good guy? Is the bad guy actually the good guy? I hope the answer was obvious.

2) If you attempt to take a life (which most have never done and just been ok with) and fail what will happen when the bad guy turns on you? Better not miss with all of that going through your mind and the stress of the situation bearing down on you.

3) Are you action even legal? Does it even matter? I mean could you live with yourself the rest of your life knowing you could have helped?

4) Are your rounds going to travel past the bad guy and harm another innocent victim?

5) Are there cops around that might mistake you for a bad guy?

6) Is your family there? Could they possibly get involved in a threatening situation?

7) Does the bad guy have friends that are going to turn on you?

8 Could I keep going? Yes.



Learn the laws of your state. Then hope it never happens. If it does, good luck
__________________
H&K Club Member # 120
H&K HK45 / H&K USP Compact .40
Glock 22 Gen 4 (Dept Issue) / Glock 27
Springfield Loaded 1911
Search is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2012, 22:08   #74
domin8ss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 413
9) Does your state have a stand your ground law? Virginia, no. Florida, yes.

10) Does your state allow citizens arrests? Utah, yes if the crime is committed against the public. (shoplifting, property damage, mass shootings at a mall, etc.)
domin8ss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2012, 16:28   #75
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Deaf Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Texican in Texas (where else?)
Posts: 9,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy_283 View Post
This may be a an easy to answer/stupid question but can you legally take down a perpetrator threatening another's life in an altercation in a public place as long as you have the right to have a gun in that location?

*by altercation I mean like an event where there is a completely innocent victim involved
In Texas it's yes jeremy, you can use force or lethal force if need be.

But talking MORALLY, if the attacker is trying to kill a innocent person, you bet your bippy I'd use lethal force if need be, screw the laws.

Deaf
__________________
“We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality” Ayn Rand

Last edited by Deaf Smith; 04-07-2012 at 16:29..
Deaf Smith is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2012, 21:07   #76
ScottieG59
Senior Member
 
ScottieG59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Rural area near Kansas City, KS
Posts: 968
Walking into an altercation can be like walking very late into a movie.

In one case, what looks like a woman being attacked was an undercover police officer arresting a prostitute who resisted arrest. Guy with a gun tried to be a hero there.

I hear enough about victims attacking police in order to protect their attacker/lover.

Also, maybe someone called 911 and the police arrive while you have your gun out.

Maybe you put yourself in the middle of a gang fight.

Anyway, you need to assess the situation and whether you really need to be there.

Police get the big bucks and public adulation because this is their playground.
ScottieG59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 04:16   #77
c6601a
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: The Most Beautiful Part Of The USA
Posts: 3,427
One of the main rational argument against CCW for the general public is that for a lot of people, packing a gun makes them feel like a superman. It is argued that these people will not only tend to act rashly and imprudently, they can not be convinced that their planned actions are rash and likely to lead to a bad outcome. The biggest problem is that it is people like these that are most eager to CCW and are represented disproportionately among those that carry.

Sadly, reading this thread makes those criticisms appear justified.
c6601a is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 04:42   #78
Bren
NRA Life Member
 
Bren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 37,663
Quote:
Originally Posted by c6601a View Post
One of the main rational argument against CCW for the general public is that for a lot of people, packing a gun makes them feel like a superman. It is argued that these people will not only tend to act rashly and imprudently, they can not be convinced that their planned actions are rash and likely to lead to a bad outcome. The biggest problem is that it is people like these that are most eager to CCW and are represented disproportionately among those that carry.

Sadly, reading this thread makes those criticisms appear justified.
It's all relative - the more "timid" you are, the more "rash" and "imprudent" others appear to be.
__________________
Quote:
This is the internet - you will never learn to shoot here.
- Me, 2014.
Bren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 04:44   #79
Bren
NRA Life Member
 
Bren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 37,663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
Maybe, but not according to the law in various states, so you are relying on the good will of judges and prosecutors.

An example I use in training is a shooting in Orlando, where an on-duty Orlando Police officer at a ball game came through the crowd and saw a guy pointing a gun at an unarmed college student who was on the ground. He shot the guy with the gun, who turned out to be an off-duty university police officer who was trying to make an arrest after being jumped by a group of college students. The result, had it been under Kentucky law, would be a murder charge and no justification defense for acting in defense of a third party.

Here's a version of the story, with some additional facts I may put into my class example:
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...wrongful-death

In that case, both the guy who jumped Jenkins in defense of the college student, and got shot, and the officer who then shot Jenkins, would be legally wrong. The "you can make a good faith mistake and have no legal defense" part is always very controversial in class,
I had to come back this morning and find that link and refresh on the facts of Mario Jenkins' case. I'm off to teach a class on Use of Force law to some probation and parole officers in a couple of hours.

The part in the Jenkins story about the Orlando officer thinking Jenkins was pointing the gun at him wasn't in the original reports that I used for class, but now this one throws in another 3rd party use of force angle, with the college student jumping the undercover cop because he thought he was a criminal.
__________________
Quote:
This is the internet - you will never learn to shoot here.
- Me, 2014.

Last edited by Bren; 04-11-2012 at 04:52..
Bren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 11:26   #80
HK Dan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,420
Look, if someone is being beaten to the point that you're concerned about the safety of the "victim", then the beater IS the bad guy. Stick to Suarez' advice--IDOL, Immediate Defense of Life. I can't think of a single jurisdiction where this is illegal, excepting Illinois, where carry is illegal. I'm sticking to IDOL, making sure I know what's going on, giving the bad guy a chance to come down to earth, and yes, I'm defending life.
__________________
A...O...Way to go, Ohio...(Chrissy Hein)
HK Dan is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 22:49.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,110
322 Members
788 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31