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Old 04-05-2012, 11:34   #1251
Fred Hansen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
I consider just the principle of not letting others mess with my stuff to be well worth risking my life for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misty02 View Post
We can agree to disagree on that one. Nothing I own is that valuable.

.
He isn't talking about the value of the property. He's talking about a very important principle. A principle that has repercussions far beyond the value of his possessions, no matter what they may be.

The principle of holding people accountable for their actions through one's own vigilance and willingness to act, is something that has almost become extinct. And we have whole areas of our country where the streets are crawling with vermin to show for it.

This thread makes me feel like a very old man, and I'm not quite 50. I say it makes me feel old, because where and when I grew up, any and all teenage males would find their out-of-place presence challenged by the adult males of the community.

When I was a kid, I hated the fact that the men, and quite frankly the more assertive women, would constantly ask us what we were doing, where we were going, and did our parents know where we were? Plus, any of those adults would feel totally comfortable reporting on us to our parents if they thought something was amiss.

As an adult, I now understand that their vigilance was invaluable, and that my own life might have been very different had the adults in my community not cared enough to do their best to keep us all in line. The debt I owe them for both keeping me safe, and on the right path, is immeasurable.

Maybe people like this new way better; the new way, where children are routinely get abducted in broad daylight, the new way, where kids are routinely hooked on dope by their teens, the new way, where gangs of roaming vermin slaughter each other over having been "dissed", the new way, where one's mere existence commands the greatest of respect. The new way, where one's personal merit and behavior is measured against absolutely nothing, because the most vile among us are to be considered of equal value to their respective communities.

You folks are welcome to your new way, it is a semi-free country after all. Keep your new way, where the only reasonable solution to any given problem is to call your almighty government, and hope they will come in time to sort it all out for you.

Enjoy having your government be in charge of your safety, your education, your nourishment, your medical care, etc... Enjoy having the largest per capita prison population on Earth, all because correcting a kid's bad behavior "outside the system", and before it becomes unstoppably evil, is taboo. Good luck to you all.

Myself, I prefer the old way, and will continue to conduct myself in its fashion. And I will never apologize for it.
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:41   #1252
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Article questioning the validity of the two audio experts.

What do you guys think of this critical article on the two audio experts who claim Zimmerman's voice was not a match on the 911 tape for the person yelling "help"?

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-lineh...perts#comments
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:50   #1253
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Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
What do you guys think of this critical article on the two audio experts who claim Zimmerman's voice was not a match on the 911 tape for the person yelling "help"?

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-lineh...perts#comments
When in doubt, follow the money!

These two men are trying to get publicity for their businesses. I would trust FBI Quantico technology more than $39 software that people can buy for Window 7 that can display sound waves.

This article initially published by the Orlando Sentinel, the same paper that attempted to equate a Funeral Home Director's observation (said no sign of struggle on M's body) with that of a well known Coroner (Dr. G).
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:51   #1254
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Originally Posted by Fred Hansen View Post
He isn't talking about the value of the property. He's talking about a very important principle. A principle that has repercussions far beyond the value of his possessions, no matter what they may be.

The principle of holding people accountable for their actions through one's own vigilance and willingness to act, is something that has almost become extinct. And we have whole areas of our country where the streets are crawling with vermin to show for it.

This thread makes me feel like a very old man, and I'm not quite 50. I say it makes me feel old, because where and when I grew up, any and all teenage males would find their out-of-place presence challenged by the adult males of the community.

When I was a kid, I hated the fact that the men, and quite frankly the more assertive women, would constantly ask us what we were doing, where we were going, and did our parents know where we were? Plus, any of those adults would feel totally comfortable reporting on us to our parents if they thought something was amiss.

As an adult, I now understand that their vigilance was invaluable, and that my own life might have been very different had the adults in my community not cared enough to do their best to keep us all in line. The debt I owe them for both keeping me safe, and on the right path, is immeasurable.

Maybe people like this new way better; the new way, where children are routinely get abducted in broad daylight, the new way, where kids are routinely hooked on dope by their teens, the new way, where gangs of roaming vermin slaughter each other over having been "dissed", the new way, where one's mere existence commands the greatest of respect. The new way, where one's personal merit and behavior is measured against absolutely nothing, because the most vile among us are to be considered of equal value to their respective communities.

You folks are welcome to your new way, it is a semi-free country after all. Keep your new way, where the only reasonable solution to any given problem is to call your almighty government, and hope they will come in time to sort it all out for you.

Enjoy having your government be in charge of your safety, your education, your nourishment, your medical care, etc... Enjoy having the largest per capita prison population on Earth, all because correcting a kid's bad behavior "outside the system", and before it becomes unstoppably evil, is taboo. Good luck to you all.

Myself, I prefer the old way, and will continue to conduct myself in its fashion. And I will never apologize for it.
Very well said and I couldn't agree more!
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:59   #1255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Hansen View Post
He isn't talking about the value of the property. He's talking about a very important principle. A principle that has repercussions far beyond the value of his possessions, no matter what they may be.

Exactly. I have a fresh jar of peanut butter at home (Jif creamy) and a half-empty jar of the same. If somebody tries to take my half empty jar of peanut butter against my will, we will fight until I win or can't fight any more. End of story.
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:14   #1256
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I understood what he meant in principle. I must also apply it to reality. I am more willing to spend hours in court to ensure one of the robbery victims is there so those in the legal system can see there is a human being involved and not just a name in a piece of paper, than I am to risk my life only to have the crook (and his accomplices, if there are any) be out shortly to do the deed again.

The kids that burglarized our home were caught months after they stole from us. The police was able to pin 12 robberies on them, I’m sure there were more. Of all the people affected I was the only one to appear in court whenever I learned there was a hearing, or a trial or anything that meant the case (and them) was being reviewed.

The ways you speak of were better in my opinion; that still goes on to some degree in communities where people know each other. It happens within a 3 or 4 block radius where I live with people that know one another, not so much beyond that.

We cannot ignore some realities of the new ways, we may not like them, but we have little choice but to accept some of them. You are not allowed to correct a child’s behavior beyond stern words (and cautiously) if that child is not your own, if you do, your own children and grandchildren would not have a father, mother and/or grandparents to guide them in the right path and teach them what their current and future family expects of them.

You have to pick your battles, as much as anyone would want to, we can’t fix the world. We can; however, teach our children to do the right and moral thing. If you have several children than in turn have more than one we can hopefully increase the number of those that would do good versus those that do bad.

It is not that some of us elect to do nothing, it is that at times we select other less riskier routes to do what we believe is right. That goes back to: Am I willing to invest my time and energy in seeing the right thing is done? Yes. Am I willing to risk my life for it? It would depend, protection of property (mine or of others) doesn’t fall in that list. Nonetheless, I am thankful the thoughts and opinions of others differs on this and that some of you are willing to risk more to accomplish it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Hansen View Post
He isn't talking about the value of the property. He's talking about a very important principle. A principle that has repercussions far beyond the value of his possessions, no matter what they may be.

The principle of holding people accountable for their actions through one's own vigilance and willingness to act, is something that has almost become extinct. And we have whole areas of our country where the streets are crawling with vermin to show for it.

This thread makes me feel like a very old man, and I'm not quite 50. I say it makes me feel old, because where and when I grew up, any and all teenage males would find their out-of-place presence challenged by the adult males of the community.

When I was a kid, I hated the fact that the men, and quite frankly the more assertive women, would constantly ask us what we were doing, where we were going, and did our parents know where we were? Plus, any of those adults would feel totally comfortable reporting on us to our parents if they thought something was amiss.

As an adult, I now understand that their vigilance was invaluable, and that my own life might have been very different had the adults in my community not cared enough to do their best to keep us all in line. The debt I owe them for both keeping me safe, and on the right path, is immeasurable.

Maybe people like this new way better; the new way, where children are routinely get abducted in broad daylight, the new way, where kids are routinely hooked on dope by their teens, the new way, where gangs of roaming vermin slaughter each other over having been "dissed", the new way, where one's mere existence commands the greatest of respect. The new way, where one's personal merit and behavior is measured against absolutely nothing, because the most vile among us are to be considered of equal value to their respective communities.

You folks are welcome to your new way, it is a semi-free country after all. Keep your new way, where the only reasonable solution to any given problem is to call your almighty government, and hope they will come in time to sort it all out for you.

Enjoy having your government be in charge of your safety, your education, your nourishment, your medical care, etc... Enjoy having the largest per capita prison population on Earth, all because correcting a kid's bad behavior "outside the system", and before it becomes unstoppably evil, is taboo. Good luck to you all.

Myself, I prefer the old way, and will continue to conduct myself in its fashion. And I will never apologize for it.
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:17   #1257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Misty02 View Post


Personally, I wouldn’t join a neighborhood watch (even if you paid me). If I see something wrong I’ll call them. If I can’t get a hold of them, then I’ll call the police.
.......
Pick your fights and know which are worth you risking your neck, in the big scheme of things, few of them are.


.
We introduced an alert system in our subdivision that notifies residents in REAL TIME by text messaging to their cell phones. Note that cell phones has both a number and a provider like Verizon. With these info,you can text msg from an email account like Yahoo to any phone. We had some 200 residents signed up and built a mailing list.


When an event occurs, we send out simple msgs like “man wearing xxxx crossing yards and looking in windows of houses on ___ street at 3pm” or “suspicious GMC van, old white color, license ___ ____ trolling ____ blvd”, etc… Within seconds, such msg pops up in resident’s cell phones, and window shades begin to open and people take pictures.



This method needed no capital cost but it requires one or a few people in charge and have access to mailing list in trust worthy manner.

It shut down crime in our neighborhood only after a couple notifications. I suspect that when the housing bubble burst, our subdivision became too affordable for people who are crime-ful in their ways. Many of us noticed that crime increased since that time and each crime seemed to get bolder than the last one. It seemed to work for us. At a minimum, this is an efficient alert system. See if it works for you.

Last edited by ModGlock17; 04-05-2012 at 12:20..
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:18   #1258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
What do you guys think of this critical article on the two audio experts who claim Zimmerman's voice was not a match on the 911 tape for the person yelling "help"?

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-lineh...perts#comments
Why would Martin be screaming for help while he was beating the crap out of Zimmerman? Seems more likely the man getting his head bashed was screaming for his life ....... and that man would be George Zimmerman.

Last edited by bear62; 04-05-2012 at 12:18..
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:43   #1259
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Originally Posted by ModGlock17 View Post
We introduced an alert system in our subdivision that notifies residents in REAL TIME by text messaging to their cell phones. Note that cell phones has both a number and a provider like Verizon. With these info,you can text msg from an email account like Yahoo to any phone. We had some 200 residents signed up and built a mailing list.


When an event occurs, we send out simple msgs like “man wearing xxxx crossing yards and looking in windows of houses on ___ street at 3pm” or “suspicious GMC van, old white color, license ___ ____ trolling ____ blvd”, etc… Within seconds, such msg pops up in resident’s cell phones, and window shades begin to open and people take pictures.



This method needed no capital cost but it requires one or a few people in charge and have access to mailing list in trust worthy manner.

It shut down crime in our neighborhood only after a couple notifications. I suspect that when the housing bubble burst, our subdivision became too affordable for people who are crime-ful in their ways. Many of us noticed that crime increased since that time and each crime seemed to get bolder than the last one. It seemed to work for us. At a minimum, this is an efficient alert system. See if it works for you.
You have a PM.
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:44   #1260
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Excellent...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Hansen View Post
He isn't talking about the value of the property. He's talking about a very important principle. A principle that has repercussions far beyond the value of his possessions, no matter what they may be.

The principle of holding people accountable for their actions through one's own vigilance and willingness to act, is something that has almost become extinct. And we have whole areas of our country where the streets are crawling with vermin to show for it.

This thread makes me feel like a very old man, and I'm not quite 50. I say it makes me feel old, because where and when I grew up, any and all teenage males would find their out-of-place presence challenged by the adult males of the community.

When I was a kid, I hated the fact that the men, and quite frankly the more assertive women, would constantly ask us what we were doing, where we were going, and did our parents know where we were? Plus, any of those adults would feel totally comfortable reporting on us to our parents if they thought something was amiss.

As an adult, I now understand that their vigilance was invaluable, and that my own life might have been very different had the adults in my community not cared enough to do their best to keep us all in line. The debt I owe them for both keeping me safe, and on the right path, is immeasurable.

Maybe people like this new way better; the new way, where children are routinely get abducted in broad daylight, the new way, where kids are routinely hooked on dope by their teens, the new way, where gangs of roaming vermin slaughter each other over having been "dissed", the new way, where one's mere existence commands the greatest of respect. The new way, where one's personal merit and behavior is measured against absolutely nothing, because the most vile among us are to be considered of equal value to their respective communities.

You folks are welcome to your new way, it is a semi-free country after all. Keep your new way, where the only reasonable solution to any given problem is to call your almighty government, and hope they will come in time to sort it all out for you.

Enjoy having your government be in charge of your safety, your education, your nourishment, your medical care, etc... Enjoy having the largest per capita prison population on Earth, all because correcting a kid's bad behavior "outside the system", and before it becomes unstoppably evil, is taboo. Good luck to you all.

Myself, I prefer the old way, and will continue to conduct myself in its fashion. And I will never apologize for it.
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Old 04-05-2012, 13:31   #1261
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http://www.theblaze.com/stories/cnn-...ial-slur-used/

Zimmerman was saying cold, not coon.

Makes perfect sense given the weather etc... and it is easy to hear the "ol" sound instead of the "oo" sound.

Last edited by High Altitude; 04-05-2012 at 13:35..
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Old 04-05-2012, 14:14   #1262
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Originally Posted by Misty02 View Post
You have to pick your battles, as much as anyone would want to, we can’t fix the world.
I think this sums it up.
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Old 04-05-2012, 16:12   #1263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by High Altitude View Post
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/cnn-...ial-slur-used/

Zimmerman was saying cold, not coon.

Makes perfect sense given the weather etc... and it is easy to hear the "ol" sound instead of the "oo" sound.
Did you see the story linked after the first paragraph about the 78 year old? Is it possible attorneys for some news outlets are letting them know they can possibly be held liable for things that happen if they can be tied back to their misinformation?

I wonder what their liability, if any, would be on something like this.

.
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Last edited by Misty02; 04-05-2012 at 16:13..
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Old 04-05-2012, 16:16   #1264
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Originally Posted by bear62 View Post
Why would Martin be screaming for help while he was beating the crap out of Zimmerman? Seems more likely the man getting his head bashed was screaming for his life ....... and that man would be George Zimmerman.
I agree, that's why that article debunking the "experts" is so interesting.
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Old 04-05-2012, 16:28   #1265
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Originally Posted by Misty02 View Post
I understood what he meant in principle. I must also apply it to reality. I am more willing to spend hours in court to ensure one of the robbery victims is there so those in the legal system can see there is a human being involved and not just a name in a piece of paper, than I am to risk my life only to have the crook (and his accomplices, if there are any) be out shortly to do the deed again.

The kids that burglarized our home were caught months after they stole from us. The police was able to pin 12 robberies on them, I’m sure there were more. Of all the people affected I was the only one to appear in court whenever I learned there was a hearing, or a trial or anything that meant the case (and them) was being reviewed.

The ways you speak of were better in my opinion; that still goes on to some degree in communities where people know each other. It happens within a 3 or 4 block radius where I live with people that know one another, not so much beyond that.

We cannot ignore some realities of the new ways, we may not like them, but we have little choice but to accept some of them. You are not allowed to correct a child’s behavior beyond stern words (and cautiously) if that child is not your own, if you do, your own children and grandchildren would not have a father, mother and/or grandparents to guide them in the right path and teach them what their current and future family expects of them.

You have to pick your battles, as much as anyone would want to, we can’t fix the world. We can; however, teach our children to do the right and moral thing. If you have several children than in turn have more than one we can hopefully increase the number of those that would do good versus those that do bad.

It is not that some of us elect to do nothing, it is that at times we select other less riskier routes to do what we believe is right. That goes back to: Am I willing to invest my time and energy in seeing the right thing is done? Yes. Am I willing to risk my life for it? It would depend, protection of property (mine or of others) doesn’t fall in that list. Nonetheless, I am thankful the thoughts and opinions of others differs on this and that some of you are willing to risk more to accomplish it.
Fair enough.
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Old 04-05-2012, 16:37   #1266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
What do you guys think of this critical article on the two audio experts who claim Zimmerman's voice was not a match on the 911 tape for the person yelling "help"?

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-lineh...perts#comments
I'm not surprised. I had my suspicions that they were self proclaimed "experts" when I first heard about them. It's like the "expert" saying that Zimmerman was intoxicated based on the 911 call. There's no shortage of lowlifes looking to grab their 15 minutes at somebody else's expense.
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Old 04-05-2012, 17:06   #1267
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The search for probable cause in Trayvon Martin case

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...,5746293.story

Quote:
When that happens, police can rearrest the suspect, and prosecutors are free to file charges. But they must bring the case to trial within 175 days ofarrest, according to Florida rules of criminal procedure.

That ticking clock is often an incentive for prosecutors to hold off on an arrest, they said. It gives them more time to collect evidence — for example, to get ballistics tests done if a gun is involved or to have fingerprints analyzed.
Among the reasons why letting (and helping) them do their job is important. That is less than 6 months to investigate, do all the lab work, consult experts, prepare a case, the works. At times people don’t understand the full ramifications of what they ask for. It is my understanding that there is no statute of limitations on murder. Again, what is the goal of the family?

As the person waiting, I would want to get it out of the way and not have to spend decades wondering what my fate would be, that has to be the worst (I think).

.
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Old 04-05-2012, 17:27   #1268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Misty02 View Post
[SIZE=3]
As the person waiting, I would want to get it out of the way and not have to spend decades wondering what my fate would be, that has to be the worst (I think).

.
Not knowing how the facts will be interpreted, yeah, it sucks...
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Old 04-05-2012, 18:20   #1269
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American Tragedy?

I picked up the latest copy of People Magazine at WallyWorld tonight. I had to pass it by three times before my curiosity got the best of me. Although I haven't read the story yet, the front cover reads "American Tragedy."

Is it really? I feel regret for the parents that lost their child. I feel regret for the life Z will have (regardless of the outcome of this situation). I feel sorry for the fools that are trying to convict and crucify him through the media. I feel sick that Sharpton, Jackson, POTUS and others are playing to the emotions of many and feeding the flames that can only do harm. But an American Tragedy? That seems a little far fetched.

In my opinion, here are three real American Tragedies (not listed in any particular order).

1. Homeless - 1.5 MILLION = the number of children in America who go to sleep without a home each year
1 in 50 = an American child’s chances of experiencing homelessness in their lifetime.

2. Hunger - 16million children face hunger in America.

3. Abuse - In 2009, approximately 3.3 million child abuse reports and allegations were made involving an estimated 6 million children.

IMHO, there are the real American Tragedies, but it doesn't appear anyone wants to rally against that.
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Old 04-05-2012, 18:25   #1270
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If by "picked up" you mean "purchased", you are fueling the fire and supporting the media turning something like this into such a big deal while ignoring those other problems
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Old 04-05-2012, 18:55   #1271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Misty02 View Post
and not have to spend decades wondering what my fate would be, that has to be the worst (I think).

.
Knowing a person that went through a home invasion with a fatal shooting of one of the suspects, I can tell you that he endured a lot of anxiety having to wait for the investigation / resolution. It's not bad enough that he had to experience the incident in the first place and take a life, but then not knowing his own fate afterward...a stress that none of us want to endure.
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Old 04-05-2012, 19:36   #1272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Hansen View Post
He isn't talking about the value of the property. He's talking about a very important principle. A principle that has repercussions far beyond the value of his possessions, no matter what they may be.

The principle of holding people accountable for their actions through one's own vigilance and willingness to act, is something that has almost become extinct. And we have whole areas of our country where the streets are crawling with vermin to show for it.

This thread makes me feel like a very old man, and I'm not quite 50. I say it makes me feel old, because where and when I grew up, any and all teenage males would find their out-of-place presence challenged by the adult males of the community.

When I was a kid, I hated the fact that the men, and quite frankly the more assertive women, would constantly ask us what we were doing, where we were going, and did our parents know where we were? Plus, any of those adults would feel totally comfortable reporting on us to our parents if they thought something was amiss.

As an adult, I now understand that their vigilance was invaluable, and that my own life might have been very different had the adults in my community not cared enough to do their best to keep us all in line. The debt I owe them for both keeping me safe, and on the right path, is immeasurable.

Maybe people like this new way better; the new way, where children are routinely get abducted in broad daylight, the new way, where kids are routinely hooked on dope by their teens, the new way, where gangs of roaming vermin slaughter each other over having been "dissed", the new way, where one's mere existence commands the greatest of respect. The new way, where one's personal merit and behavior is measured against absolutely nothing, because the most vile among us are to be considered of equal value to their respective communities.

You folks are welcome to your new way, it is a semi-free country after all. Keep your new way, where the only reasonable solution to any given problem is to call your almighty government, and hope they will come in time to sort it all out for you.

Enjoy having your government be in charge of your safety, your education, your nourishment, your medical care, etc... Enjoy having the largest per capita prison population on Earth, all because correcting a kid's bad behavior "outside the system", and before it becomes unstoppably evil, is taboo. Good luck to you all.

Myself, I prefer the old way, and will continue to conduct myself in its fashion. And I will never apologize for it.
Amen brother
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Old 04-05-2012, 19:39   #1273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Hansen View Post
Keep your new way, where the only reasonable solution to any given problem is to call your almighty government, and hope they will come in time to sort it all out for you.
Nobody, other than you, has said anything of the sort.
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Old 04-05-2012, 19:42   #1274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Hansen View Post
He isn't talking about the value of the property. He's talking about a very important principle. A principle that has repercussions far beyond the value of his possessions, no matter what they may be.

The principle of holding people accountable for their actions through one's own vigilance and willingness to act, is something that has almost become extinct. And we have whole areas of our country where the streets are crawling with vermin to show for it.

This thread makes me feel like a very old man, and I'm not quite 50. I say it makes me feel old, because where and when I grew up, any and all teenage males would find their out-of-place presence challenged by the adult males of the community.

When I was a kid, I hated the fact that the men, and quite frankly the more assertive women, would constantly ask us what we were doing, where we were going, and did our parents know where we were? Plus, any of those adults would feel totally comfortable reporting on us to our parents if they thought something was amiss.

As an adult, I now understand that their vigilance was invaluable, and that my own life might have been very different had the adults in my community not cared enough to do their best to keep us all in line. The debt I owe them for both keeping me safe, and on the right path, is immeasurable.

Maybe people like this new way better; the new way, where children are routinely get abducted in broad daylight, the new way, where kids are routinely hooked on dope by their teens, the new way, where gangs of roaming vermin slaughter each other over having been "dissed", the new way, where one's mere existence commands the greatest of respect. The new way, where one's personal merit and behavior is measured against absolutely nothing, because the most vile among us are to be considered of equal value to their respective communities.

You folks are welcome to your new way, it is a semi-free country after all. Keep your new way, where the only reasonable solution to any given problem is to call your almighty government, and hope they will come in time to sort it all out for you.

Enjoy having your government be in charge of your safety, your education, your nourishment, your medical care, etc... Enjoy having the largest per capita prison population on Earth, all because correcting a kid's bad behavior "outside the system", and before it becomes unstoppably evil, is taboo. Good luck to you all.

Myself, I prefer the old way, and will continue to conduct myself in its fashion. And I will never apologize for it.
I am also closing in on 50 and had similar experiences growing up. While I agree with the sentiment, it's unfortunate that you cannot be immune to "their" environment that they have created. We all suffer what we've evolved to become.
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Old 04-05-2012, 19:42   #1275
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Here's a shooting that had the benefit of a video.
http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.p...=53502&start=0

Still, not a whole lot of peace in the mind of the one who had to shoot to defend self.
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