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Old 04-05-2012, 07:26   #1241
RussP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
Russ,
I am not saying that the parents of the teenager who was killed are right.
And I am not saying they are wrong for wanting answers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
What I am saying is that it is human nature to want answers immediately.
It is how we have evolved - instant gratification, fast food drive-thru, constant information approach to life.

I'm certain you've seen blooper clips from television shows and movies. That's where people make mistakes. Then they get to do the scene again, and again, and again, until they get it right. They finished product is seamless, a perfect flow.

Compare that to this situation. Every supposed fact discovered is a scene. Oops, that "fact" released three days ago has now been challenged and proven to be wrong, untrue, false. Can't go back and edit out the error. People believed it true when it was released. People are coming forward saying, "Yeah, that's how it happened...", only it could not in any way have happened in that manner. Oops...


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Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
And Warp... everyone here is saying that it would take months before the police (right or wrong) would be able to release complete information.
Sometimes, discovering the totality of the circumstances takes that long.

Okay, back to television... Has anyone here ever heard on a crime show a suspect mention a fact about a case and the cop says, "How did you know that detail? We never released that information." BAM, evildoer caught because they knew something about the crime only the person committing it would.

Collecting recollections and eyewitness observations from witnesses independently without one knowing what the other has said is the same thing. One person may recollect a detail that does not match descriptions given by others. Then you have to research whether that detail is right or wrong. If you publish the detail...
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Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
Funny how this forum is working. I have said repeatedly that I believe Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. But so many people here have made up their minds about Travon's guilt, but Zimmermans stupidity.
That's how you see it? I wish I had the skill to graph the swings in opinion in this thread as rumors emerge, as rumors are debunked or confirmed. The chart would have to come with Dramamine...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
Russ, Misty, and Warp..... you are all way better people than me, if you can patiently sit back and wait for months for answers as to why your kid was killed.

I have no respect for the way the media has handled this and turned it into a race war. But only on the 'net can people sit back and complacently say how much better they would handle their kid being killed, and how ignorant others are for questioning (or understanding) how others might deal with it.
I do not believe we have said anyone is better or worse because of their wanting information.

Yep, the media and the glory hounds have exacerbated this event and complicated any understanding of what really happened that may come out of the investigation.

I've been questioning things since I was a teenager. Personal issues have been the toughest to question, and understanding the answers that came with the questions, that was difficult. I've made mistakes when I didn't look at both/all sides of the issue. Living with those mistakes reminds me why looking for the true cause of a situation is critically important. Life's lessons are hard.

I will say, again, that demanding every detail as it is discovered be published carries more risks than rewards.
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:45   #1242
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
I consider just the principle of not letting others mess with my stuff to be well worth risking my life for.

It can be an acceptable calculated risk dependng on skills, experience, ability, knowledge, etc.

On one hand Mr. Zimmerman's property did not seem to be in immediate jeopardy. On the other hand burglars have the ability to potentiall jeopardize anyone and everyone's property who is in the area.


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Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
As closely as you have followed this, I'm really surprised you don't agree that the police didn't give the parents the information the parents wanted. But I have no doubt, that if you were the parent of the teenager who was killed, and if no arrest was made, you would sit patiently and wait. Believe it or not, there are parents who are not be as patient and understanding as you.
Honestly, if someone shot my dog, I doubt I could wait patiently for months to get answers as to why it happened.
Like it or not participants in events such as these generally need to wait months for final resolution. I do however wonder to what extent Sanford PD attempted to explain this to Martin's family. (Regardless of how much or little they attempted, the attempts did not work.)
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:51   #1243
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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
Still waiting on when the Police advise they agreed they didn't give out NEEDED information as opposed to information WANTED by the parents. (And understandably so by the way. If I were a parent I would WANT the information too.)


Are you sure the Police Chief didn't step down due to the actual "leaks" to the media/public and or the fact that Z was not arrested that night, or AFTER THE MEDIA, with the help of infamous racists, decided to play it up as a gun control issue instead of what it actually was/is?

STGO,

I am simply asking you to provide me with independent information which supports your claim(s) as I do not recall anything being mentioned or publicly released that backs up your assertions. In fact, it seems you are simply making "facts" up in order to under gird your own, individual suppositions about this entire event.

Look, you're not writing a newspaper article with a purely stylized entertainment value based on emotionalism in order to endear the masses to your point of view. Capisce?
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...n_shooting.pdf

It took all of 30 seconds to find, so if you really had any interest.
I'll save you a couple of pages...... just read the last paragraph.
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:08   #1244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...n_shooting.pdf

It took all of 30 seconds to find, so if you really had any interest.
I'll save you a couple of pages...... just read the last paragraph.
Interesting read. Thanks, SpringerTGO
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:20   #1245
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Interesting read. Thanks, SpringerTGO
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Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...n_shooting.pdf

It took all of 30 seconds to find, so if you really had any interest.
I'll save you a couple of pages...... just read the last paragraph.
I believe I first posted this exact same link, on either this particular thread or one of GT's other Z & M threads, a LONG time ago. I've carefully read this specific release at least a dozen times before today.

You're refusing to give up your version of "facts" based on your view of what went wrong. What went wrong is that as far as we know, based on eyewitnesses and from other parties involved with this event, M attacked Z from behind.
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:22   #1246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
Without a doubt, for whatever reasons justifiable or not, the Sanford police didn't give the parents the information they needed. The police, media, and parents have pretty much agreed on that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
Still waiting on when the Police advise they agreed they didn't give out NEEDED information as opposed to information WANTED by the parents.

I am simply asking you to provide me with independent information which supports your claim(s) as I do not recall anything being mentioned or publicly released that backs up your assertions. In fact, it seems you are simply making "facts" up in order to under gird your own, individual suppositions about this entire event.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...n_shooting.pdf

It took all of 30 seconds to find, so if you really had any interest.
I'll save you a couple of pages...... just read the last paragraph.
Sorry, but the the last paragraph of the letter from the City Manager does not affirm your allegation that the police, media, and parents have pretty much agreed Sanford police didn't give the parents the information they needed.

The City Manager said, "Please understand that since this is still an ongoing investigation, the Police Department is limited in what information it can publicly release." is that what you're citing as your proof?
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Last edited by RussP; 04-05-2012 at 08:27..
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:23   #1247
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Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...n_shooting.pdf

It took all of 30 seconds to find, so if you really had any interest.
I'll save you a couple of pages...... just read the last paragraph.
Other than the City Manager interjecting his own opinion (or the opinion he wanted to project), what do you believe that paragraph says? A few things to keep in mind (1) he is a politician, (2) he needs to find a way to maintain peace in the community while the investigation is on-going, (3) He may not be privy to all the information at hand.

Quote:
Although the Police Department is the target of the troubling questions, let me assure you we too feel the pain of this senseless tragedy that has dramatically affected our community. Therefore, as we move forward and strive to answer the questions that are a point of controversy in the community, we ask for your patience, understanding and assistance in getting the correct information to the community

.
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:33   #1248
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Gonna miss this thread when it's gone...... Lots of emotions shown here in a fairly civilized way.

I still think Z will walk ...... and while walking will be looking over his shoulder the rest of his life. Most likely his neighborhood watch days are behind him ......
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:46   #1249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce M View Post
Like it or not participants in events such as these generally need to wait months for final resolution. I do however wonder to what extent Sanford PD attempted to explain this to Martin's family. (Regardless of how much or little they attempted, the attempts did not work.)
Bruce, explaining the procedure will not satisfy the desire for the information. That is a given.

I would like to know who initiated the March 8 huffingtonpost.com article eleven days after the shooting. Did the media contact the Martins, or did they contact the media. My guess is the HuffPost Miami, launched in November 2011, went to the parents.

That started the fire storm less than two weeks into the investigation...
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Old 04-05-2012, 09:16   #1250
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
I consider just the principle of not letting others mess with my stuff to be well worth risking my life for.
Bren, I can agree with keeping others away from my stuff but not at great risk to my life, perps life or general well being. Shoot somebody for messing with your stuff may have you end up his cellie or in the same cemetary. At best you would be out a whole lot of lawyer costs. Stuff is just that, stuff.
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:34   #1251
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
I consider just the principle of not letting others mess with my stuff to be well worth risking my life for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misty02 View Post
We can agree to disagree on that one. Nothing I own is that valuable.

.
He isn't talking about the value of the property. He's talking about a very important principle. A principle that has repercussions far beyond the value of his possessions, no matter what they may be.

The principle of holding people accountable for their actions through one's own vigilance and willingness to act, is something that has almost become extinct. And we have whole areas of our country where the streets are crawling with vermin to show for it.

This thread makes me feel like a very old man, and I'm not quite 50. I say it makes me feel old, because where and when I grew up, any and all teenage males would find their out-of-place presence challenged by the adult males of the community.

When I was a kid, I hated the fact that the men, and quite frankly the more assertive women, would constantly ask us what we were doing, where we were going, and did our parents know where we were? Plus, any of those adults would feel totally comfortable reporting on us to our parents if they thought something was amiss.

As an adult, I now understand that their vigilance was invaluable, and that my own life might have been very different had the adults in my community not cared enough to do their best to keep us all in line. The debt I owe them for both keeping me safe, and on the right path, is immeasurable.

Maybe people like this new way better; the new way, where children are routinely get abducted in broad daylight, the new way, where kids are routinely hooked on dope by their teens, the new way, where gangs of roaming vermin slaughter each other over having been "dissed", the new way, where one's mere existence commands the greatest of respect. The new way, where one's personal merit and behavior is measured against absolutely nothing, because the most vile among us are to be considered of equal value to their respective communities.

You folks are welcome to your new way, it is a semi-free country after all. Keep your new way, where the only reasonable solution to any given problem is to call your almighty government, and hope they will come in time to sort it all out for you.

Enjoy having your government be in charge of your safety, your education, your nourishment, your medical care, etc... Enjoy having the largest per capita prison population on Earth, all because correcting a kid's bad behavior "outside the system", and before it becomes unstoppably evil, is taboo. Good luck to you all.

Myself, I prefer the old way, and will continue to conduct myself in its fashion. And I will never apologize for it.
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:41   #1252
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Article questioning the validity of the two audio experts.

What do you guys think of this critical article on the two audio experts who claim Zimmerman's voice was not a match on the 911 tape for the person yelling "help"?

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-lineh...perts#comments
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:50   #1253
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Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
What do you guys think of this critical article on the two audio experts who claim Zimmerman's voice was not a match on the 911 tape for the person yelling "help"?

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-lineh...perts#comments
When in doubt, follow the money!

These two men are trying to get publicity for their businesses. I would trust FBI Quantico technology more than $39 software that people can buy for Window 7 that can display sound waves.

This article initially published by the Orlando Sentinel, the same paper that attempted to equate a Funeral Home Director's observation (said no sign of struggle on M's body) with that of a well known Coroner (Dr. G).
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:51   #1254
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He isn't talking about the value of the property. He's talking about a very important principle. A principle that has repercussions far beyond the value of his possessions, no matter what they may be.

The principle of holding people accountable for their actions through one's own vigilance and willingness to act, is something that has almost become extinct. And we have whole areas of our country where the streets are crawling with vermin to show for it.

This thread makes me feel like a very old man, and I'm not quite 50. I say it makes me feel old, because where and when I grew up, any and all teenage males would find their out-of-place presence challenged by the adult males of the community.

When I was a kid, I hated the fact that the men, and quite frankly the more assertive women, would constantly ask us what we were doing, where we were going, and did our parents know where we were? Plus, any of those adults would feel totally comfortable reporting on us to our parents if they thought something was amiss.

As an adult, I now understand that their vigilance was invaluable, and that my own life might have been very different had the adults in my community not cared enough to do their best to keep us all in line. The debt I owe them for both keeping me safe, and on the right path, is immeasurable.

Maybe people like this new way better; the new way, where children are routinely get abducted in broad daylight, the new way, where kids are routinely hooked on dope by their teens, the new way, where gangs of roaming vermin slaughter each other over having been "dissed", the new way, where one's mere existence commands the greatest of respect. The new way, where one's personal merit and behavior is measured against absolutely nothing, because the most vile among us are to be considered of equal value to their respective communities.

You folks are welcome to your new way, it is a semi-free country after all. Keep your new way, where the only reasonable solution to any given problem is to call your almighty government, and hope they will come in time to sort it all out for you.

Enjoy having your government be in charge of your safety, your education, your nourishment, your medical care, etc... Enjoy having the largest per capita prison population on Earth, all because correcting a kid's bad behavior "outside the system", and before it becomes unstoppably evil, is taboo. Good luck to you all.

Myself, I prefer the old way, and will continue to conduct myself in its fashion. And I will never apologize for it.
Very well said and I couldn't agree more!
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:59   #1255
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He isn't talking about the value of the property. He's talking about a very important principle. A principle that has repercussions far beyond the value of his possessions, no matter what they may be.

Exactly. I have a fresh jar of peanut butter at home (Jif creamy) and a half-empty jar of the same. If somebody tries to take my half empty jar of peanut butter against my will, we will fight until I win or can't fight any more. End of story.
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:14   #1256
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I understood what he meant in principle. I must also apply it to reality. I am more willing to spend hours in court to ensure one of the robbery victims is there so those in the legal system can see there is a human being involved and not just a name in a piece of paper, than I am to risk my life only to have the crook (and his accomplices, if there are any) be out shortly to do the deed again.

The kids that burglarized our home were caught months after they stole from us. The police was able to pin 12 robberies on them, I’m sure there were more. Of all the people affected I was the only one to appear in court whenever I learned there was a hearing, or a trial or anything that meant the case (and them) was being reviewed.

The ways you speak of were better in my opinion; that still goes on to some degree in communities where people know each other. It happens within a 3 or 4 block radius where I live with people that know one another, not so much beyond that.

We cannot ignore some realities of the new ways, we may not like them, but we have little choice but to accept some of them. You are not allowed to correct a child’s behavior beyond stern words (and cautiously) if that child is not your own, if you do, your own children and grandchildren would not have a father, mother and/or grandparents to guide them in the right path and teach them what their current and future family expects of them.

You have to pick your battles, as much as anyone would want to, we can’t fix the world. We can; however, teach our children to do the right and moral thing. If you have several children than in turn have more than one we can hopefully increase the number of those that would do good versus those that do bad.

It is not that some of us elect to do nothing, it is that at times we select other less riskier routes to do what we believe is right. That goes back to: Am I willing to invest my time and energy in seeing the right thing is done? Yes. Am I willing to risk my life for it? It would depend, protection of property (mine or of others) doesn’t fall in that list. Nonetheless, I am thankful the thoughts and opinions of others differs on this and that some of you are willing to risk more to accomplish it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Hansen View Post
He isn't talking about the value of the property. He's talking about a very important principle. A principle that has repercussions far beyond the value of his possessions, no matter what they may be.

The principle of holding people accountable for their actions through one's own vigilance and willingness to act, is something that has almost become extinct. And we have whole areas of our country where the streets are crawling with vermin to show for it.

This thread makes me feel like a very old man, and I'm not quite 50. I say it makes me feel old, because where and when I grew up, any and all teenage males would find their out-of-place presence challenged by the adult males of the community.

When I was a kid, I hated the fact that the men, and quite frankly the more assertive women, would constantly ask us what we were doing, where we were going, and did our parents know where we were? Plus, any of those adults would feel totally comfortable reporting on us to our parents if they thought something was amiss.

As an adult, I now understand that their vigilance was invaluable, and that my own life might have been very different had the adults in my community not cared enough to do their best to keep us all in line. The debt I owe them for both keeping me safe, and on the right path, is immeasurable.

Maybe people like this new way better; the new way, where children are routinely get abducted in broad daylight, the new way, where kids are routinely hooked on dope by their teens, the new way, where gangs of roaming vermin slaughter each other over having been "dissed", the new way, where one's mere existence commands the greatest of respect. The new way, where one's personal merit and behavior is measured against absolutely nothing, because the most vile among us are to be considered of equal value to their respective communities.

You folks are welcome to your new way, it is a semi-free country after all. Keep your new way, where the only reasonable solution to any given problem is to call your almighty government, and hope they will come in time to sort it all out for you.

Enjoy having your government be in charge of your safety, your education, your nourishment, your medical care, etc... Enjoy having the largest per capita prison population on Earth, all because correcting a kid's bad behavior "outside the system", and before it becomes unstoppably evil, is taboo. Good luck to you all.

Myself, I prefer the old way, and will continue to conduct myself in its fashion. And I will never apologize for it.
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:17   #1257
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Originally Posted by Misty02 View Post


Personally, I wouldn’t join a neighborhood watch (even if you paid me). If I see something wrong I’ll call them. If I can’t get a hold of them, then I’ll call the police.
.......
Pick your fights and know which are worth you risking your neck, in the big scheme of things, few of them are.


.
We introduced an alert system in our subdivision that notifies residents in REAL TIME by text messaging to their cell phones. Note that cell phones has both a number and a provider like Verizon. With these info,you can text msg from an email account like Yahoo to any phone. We had some 200 residents signed up and built a mailing list.


When an event occurs, we send out simple msgs like “man wearing xxxx crossing yards and looking in windows of houses on ___ street at 3pm” or “suspicious GMC van, old white color, license ___ ____ trolling ____ blvd”, etc… Within seconds, such msg pops up in resident’s cell phones, and window shades begin to open and people take pictures.



This method needed no capital cost but it requires one or a few people in charge and have access to mailing list in trust worthy manner.

It shut down crime in our neighborhood only after a couple notifications. I suspect that when the housing bubble burst, our subdivision became too affordable for people who are crime-ful in their ways. Many of us noticed that crime increased since that time and each crime seemed to get bolder than the last one. It seemed to work for us. At a minimum, this is an efficient alert system. See if it works for you.

Last edited by ModGlock17; 04-05-2012 at 12:20..
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:18   #1258
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Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
What do you guys think of this critical article on the two audio experts who claim Zimmerman's voice was not a match on the 911 tape for the person yelling "help"?

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-lineh...perts#comments
Why would Martin be screaming for help while he was beating the crap out of Zimmerman? Seems more likely the man getting his head bashed was screaming for his life ....... and that man would be George Zimmerman.

Last edited by bear62; 04-05-2012 at 12:18..
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:43   #1259
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Originally Posted by ModGlock17 View Post
We introduced an alert system in our subdivision that notifies residents in REAL TIME by text messaging to their cell phones. Note that cell phones has both a number and a provider like Verizon. With these info,you can text msg from an email account like Yahoo to any phone. We had some 200 residents signed up and built a mailing list.


When an event occurs, we send out simple msgs like “man wearing xxxx crossing yards and looking in windows of houses on ___ street at 3pm” or “suspicious GMC van, old white color, license ___ ____ trolling ____ blvd”, etc… Within seconds, such msg pops up in resident’s cell phones, and window shades begin to open and people take pictures.



This method needed no capital cost but it requires one or a few people in charge and have access to mailing list in trust worthy manner.

It shut down crime in our neighborhood only after a couple notifications. I suspect that when the housing bubble burst, our subdivision became too affordable for people who are crime-ful in their ways. Many of us noticed that crime increased since that time and each crime seemed to get bolder than the last one. It seemed to work for us. At a minimum, this is an efficient alert system. See if it works for you.
You have a PM.
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:44   #1260
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Excellent...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Hansen View Post
He isn't talking about the value of the property. He's talking about a very important principle. A principle that has repercussions far beyond the value of his possessions, no matter what they may be.

The principle of holding people accountable for their actions through one's own vigilance and willingness to act, is something that has almost become extinct. And we have whole areas of our country where the streets are crawling with vermin to show for it.

This thread makes me feel like a very old man, and I'm not quite 50. I say it makes me feel old, because where and when I grew up, any and all teenage males would find their out-of-place presence challenged by the adult males of the community.

When I was a kid, I hated the fact that the men, and quite frankly the more assertive women, would constantly ask us what we were doing, where we were going, and did our parents know where we were? Plus, any of those adults would feel totally comfortable reporting on us to our parents if they thought something was amiss.

As an adult, I now understand that their vigilance was invaluable, and that my own life might have been very different had the adults in my community not cared enough to do their best to keep us all in line. The debt I owe them for both keeping me safe, and on the right path, is immeasurable.

Maybe people like this new way better; the new way, where children are routinely get abducted in broad daylight, the new way, where kids are routinely hooked on dope by their teens, the new way, where gangs of roaming vermin slaughter each other over having been "dissed", the new way, where one's mere existence commands the greatest of respect. The new way, where one's personal merit and behavior is measured against absolutely nothing, because the most vile among us are to be considered of equal value to their respective communities.

You folks are welcome to your new way, it is a semi-free country after all. Keep your new way, where the only reasonable solution to any given problem is to call your almighty government, and hope they will come in time to sort it all out for you.

Enjoy having your government be in charge of your safety, your education, your nourishment, your medical care, etc... Enjoy having the largest per capita prison population on Earth, all because correcting a kid's bad behavior "outside the system", and before it becomes unstoppably evil, is taboo. Good luck to you all.

Myself, I prefer the old way, and will continue to conduct myself in its fashion. And I will never apologize for it.
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
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Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42