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Old 04-05-2012, 01:14   #1226
Warp
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Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
Russ,
I am not saying that the parents of the teenager who was killed are right. What I am saying is that it is human nature to want answers immediately.
And Warp... everyone here is saying that it would take months before the police (right or wrong) would be able to release complete information.

Funny how this forum is working. I have said repeatedly that I believe Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. But so many people here have made up their minds about Travon's guilt, but Zimmermans stupidity.

Russ, Misty, and Warp..... you are all way better people than me, if you can patiently sit back and wait for months for answers as to why your kid was killed.
I have no respect for the way the media has handled this and turned it into a race war. But only on the 'net can people sit back and complacently say how much better they would handle their kid being killed, and how ignorant others are for questioning (or understanding) how others might deal with it.
I feel I have missed something.

Would you please quote the posts of mine you are referring to/talking about here?
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Old 04-05-2012, 01:41   #1227
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
...Withholding critical information insures witnesses' recollections will not be swayed by what others say.

That's the way it works in the real world, SpringerTGO...


The family of the man shot also wanted to know about what was happening with the investigation. They also went to the media. They also introduced false and misleading information in their interviews.

This is not CSI television where you get to see the work that goes on behind the scenes as it happens.

What the family WANTS is not important to the investigation. The fair and complete investigation IS what's important...


How about the parent of the person claiming self defense? Do they not deserve a fair and thorough investigation without chance of errors being made resulting in a rush to justice...

SUPERB SUMMARY!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
Russ,
I am not saying that the parents of the teenager who was killed are right. What I am saying is that it is human nature to want answers immediately.
And Warp... everyone here is saying that it would take months before the police (right or wrong) would be able to release complete information...



Russ, Misty, and Warp..... you are all way better people than me, if you can patiently sit back and wait for months for answers as to why your kid was killed...

See Russ' post above. As well, would you rather we live in a dictatorship where one was summarily hung or shot without a thorough investigation of the facts merely to be "expedient" and to calm upset parents?

I recommend the movie "The Oxbow Incident". Rent it.
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Old 04-05-2012, 01:51   #1228
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Neighborhood watch is not allowed to be armed. Neighborhood watch is not supposed to approach suspicious people. That is because they are not police. They don't want untrained people out there acting like cops because incidents like this happen.

Whether he sneaked up behind him or approached him with a marching band does not matter, he allowed him to reach the distance to strike him. If he would have had a knife Zimmerman would have been dead. Do you think bad guys always attack from in plain sight? I had a friend who was shot by those thrill killers a few years ago in Phoenix. He was out walking the streets at 2:00 AM. He did not deserve to be shot for that. But it was stupid to be out walking around then.

My post was a reply to another poster responding to a previous post where I said he probably did nothing illegal but was not very smart. I also said Martin was not very smart also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
True. He is in the local neighborhood watch program. They are trained to observe and report.

He is a participant in the neighborhood watch program, which he lives in a neighborhood that had recent numerous crimes (including break-ins). He was following through on his commitment to his neighborhood watch responsibilities.

Not bad judgement at all. You're simply wrong here.


So you would only be a good neighborhood watch participant when all the criminals coming into your neighborhood are UNARMED. Gotcha! (please don't move near me.)

Here is where you skew the entire scenario in order to key-hole the outcome as only caused by Z, which only this conclusion fits into your underlying supposition about this event.

As far as we know from Police reports: Z lost sight of M and then Z either had just made it back to his truck, or was going back to his truck when M attacked Z from behind. Due to Z being attacked from behind by M, M gained the upper hand quickly and opened a can of whoop-*** on Z.


You're right, as far as we know from eyewitnesses and Police reports, Z did NOTHING illegal, but M did by way of committing assault on Z.

You're trying to imply that Z chased M yet again. This has been your theme throughout and you are completely ignoring known facts from eyewitnesses and the statements of those involved in this event.

You sound not unlike the racists that are trumping this whole issue up based on the color of someone's skin. Are you on nottoosharpton's payroll?

Yes. M chased and caught Z. It is a tragedy for M's family
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Old 04-05-2012, 04:46   #1229
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Originally Posted by East River Guide View Post
Clearly a bad result, but I still have a hard time with a conclusion that you can't get out of the car. Don't confront? OK, I'll buy that. But if there were 9 burglaries in 15 months in my neighborhood I'd have a hard time saying everyone just wait for the cops and might do a little extra to keep an eye on the bad guys. And doing so shouldn't vitiate your right of self defense. Just sayin.

Actually I'd probably move but I recognize not eveyone has that inclination or luxury.
It is actually a matter of life and death, likely your own. Is any property (yours or others) worth your life? Zimmerman got lucky!

Even inside our own home, if it weren’t because our grown boys and grandson sleep on the other side of the house, we would hunker down in our room during a burglary, call the police and let them handle it. The only reason we leave our room is because there are others at risk, otherwise it would be unlikely we would go investigate things that go thump in the night.

You have to evaluate what is at risk versus what is there to gain at all times. If you take that evaluation a few steps beyond the “right now” and “what you actually know” you’ll come to the conclusion that other than the lives of your loved ones (or your own) little else is worth the risk.

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Old 04-05-2012, 05:06   #1230
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Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
As closely as you have followed this, I'm really surprised you don't agree that the police didn't give the parents the information the parents wanted. But I have no doubt, that if you were the parent of the teenager who was killed, and if no arrest was made, you would sit patiently and wait. Believe it or not, there are parents who are not be as patient and understanding as you.
Honestly, if someone shot my dog, I doubt I could wait patiently for months to get answers as to why it happened.
You would be incorrect with such an assumption. I would be just as impatient (if not more). I would do everything in my power to learn what is going on, by being there and helping (rather than obstructing and becoming a nuisance) you get to find out more than you would otherwise, you get to be present during conversations that are not meant for your ears (but if you’re discrete and pretend to be doing something else you’ll get to hear). You volunteer to be their secretary, maid, delivery person (pick up lunch), whatever they need. You become as unnoticeable as their wall and as helpful as the best assistant they’ve ever had. Find out at what time people have lunch, show up with sandwiches and coffee, don’t drop them off and leave; find a way to sit there with them and eat yours too, ask some questions but not many, let them talk, listen to what they say to each other. You still will not be allowed everywhere and you won’t be told everything, but you would know a lot more than by demanding and becoming an obstruction they have to work around.

Always keep clear what your goal is and find the most positive way to attain it. It is up to you to create an atmosphere where they want to help you and keep you informed. If they don’t trust you, you’ll get what you’re entitled to, which isn’t much if you truly have a need to remain informed.

Why do people assume they’ll get the results they want by demanding them rather than working for them? I’ll never understand that.
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Old 04-05-2012, 05:09   #1231
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Originally Posted by Misty02 View Post
It is actually a matter of life and death, likely your own. Is any property (yours or others) worth your life? Zimmerman got lucky!
I consider just the principle of not letting others mess with my stuff to be well worth risking my life for.
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Old 04-05-2012, 05:20   #1232
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Originally Posted by 4Rules View Post
By your logic, to avoid unnecessary jeopardy, one would also choose not to participate in any neighborhood watch program either. See this thread:

Advise on Joining Neighborhood Watch
<http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1412561>

The world would be a much poorer place if everyone avoided all responsibility and no one was willing to "stick his neck out" to help other members of his community.
More than a few of my neighbors fall in the “loved ones” category. They are people that we care about and would do everything in our power to help. After the 2005 hurricanes, we became even closer. If they need someone to take them to the doctor, pick up medicine, do some grocery shopping and the like, we are there. If there is someone breaking into their home when they are not home we would call the police and let them handle it. Heck, if I came to my own home and suspected there were burglars inside I would call the police and let them handle it. When there were strange people in my neighbors back yard we called them, they weren’t expecting anyone to do any work and called the police. They didn’t ask us, nor would we have agreed to go there and try to prevent anything.

Personally, I wouldn’t join a neighborhood watch (even if you paid me). If I see something wrong I’ll call them. If I can’t get a hold of them, then I’ll call the police. If I suspect they are in danger, then I would have other decisions to make.

Pick your fights and know which are worth you risking your neck, in the big scheme of things, few of them are.


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Old 04-05-2012, 05:21   #1233
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Originally Posted by PAGunner View Post
Here is a question, if George Zimmerman did not get out of his car, with what he believed to be a questionable character in his neighborhood, would there have been a shooting? Answer that honestly with a yes or no and then you might be able to see the other point of view.
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It is actually a matter of life and death, likely your own. Is any property (yours or others) worth your life?
There are different levels of analysis. If you look at it as a chain of causation or tactical error, yes there are ways to say getting out of the car was wrong, just as you can say some girl shouldn't have been walking down a street late at night alone in a short skirt or bad things wouldn't have happened to her. But I am still not eager to create legal or criminal liability for simply getting out of the car to investigate what could be a threat to your neighbors.

And of course in retrospect there was more risk there than I'm sure GZ wanted to take on. But really, there are plenty of people who go outside to investigate if they hear or see something suspicious on their property or maybe thier neighbor's. I'm not prepared to make them criminals for doing so, even if they could have stayed inside.

Last edited by East River Guide; 04-05-2012 at 05:33..
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Old 04-05-2012, 05:42   #1234
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Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
Russ,
I am not saying that the parents of the teenager who was killed are right. What I am saying is that it is human nature to want answers immediately.
And Warp... everyone here is saying that it would take months before the police (right or wrong) would be able to release complete information.

Funny how this forum is working. I have said repeatedly that I believe Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. But so many people here have made up their minds about Travon's guilt, but Zimmermans stupidity.

Russ, Misty, and Warp..... you are all way better people than me, if you can patiently sit back and wait for months for answers as to why your kid was killed.
I have no respect for the way the media has handled this and turned it into a race war. But only on the 'net can people sit back and complacently say how much better they would handle their kid being killed, and how ignorant others are for questioning (or understanding) how others might deal with it.
SpringerTGO, I went through one I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy. It took many months of suffering I cannot even begin to describe. The detectives involved were incredible, and that is based on what I knew, much more went on behind the scenes that I didn’t even know about. At the end of the day they even obtained a hand written confession. His defense attorney claimed it was obtained under duress (lies), the confession became inadmissible; once the confession was thrown out witnesses started to back out. Witnesses consisted of children that had gone through hell for the many months the investigation lasted and I can’t blame the parents for backing out. The entire case evaporated right before our eyes and the guy walked.

The world and others in it owe you nothing. The police have a job to do, you can be an obstacle, demand all you want, and you’ll get nothing. Work diligently with them and you could still get nothing, but your odds suddenly get a tad better.

You think I’m a better person than you are? Hardly, I’ve just had the necessity to learn the hard way and always kept sight of what my goal actually was. It still didn’t work, but not for lack of trying.

.
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Old 04-05-2012, 05:47   #1235
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
I consider just the principle of not letting others mess with my stuff to be well worth risking my life for.
We can agree to disagree on that one. Nothing I own is that valuable.

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Old 04-05-2012, 05:56   #1236
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Originally Posted by East River Guide View Post
There are different levels of analysis. If you look at it as a chain of causation or tactical error, yes there are ways to say getting out of the car was wrong, just as you can say some girl shouldn't have been walking down a street late at night alone in a short skirt or bad things wouldn't have happened to her. But I am still not eager to create legal or criminal liability for simply getting out of the car to investigate what could be a threat to your neighbors.

And of course in retrospect there was more risk there than I'm sure GZ wanted to take on. But really, there are plenty of people who go outside to investigate if they hear or see something suspicious on their property or maybe thier neighbor's. I'm not prepared to make them criminals for doing so, even if they could have stayed inside.
I don’t believe he did anything illegal by leaving his vehicle. A girl walking alone at 2:00 AM is doing nothing illegal either. Neither is criminal and each should have the right to protect their life if the need arises. There is a huge difference between stating those actions are illegal and stating they are not wise or recommendable. Also keep in mind that there are times that doing something that is not wise is necessary, like women that are out alone at night walking toward their vehicle when they get out of work.

There are things you have to do in spite the risk; there are others you don’t have to. It is up to us to learn the difference.

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Old 04-05-2012, 06:01   #1237
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Originally Posted by 4Rules View Post
I was speaking in reference to PAGunner.
This one?
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Originally Posted by PAGunner View Post
I'm playing devil's advocate, I understand your point of view, but I'll try my best to make you see the other side's point of view, which is a large part of society and that happens to be important for you to understand if you want to stay out of hot water...

Here is a question, if George Zimmerman did not get out of his car, with what he believed to be a questionable character in his neighborhood, would there have been a shooting? Answer that honestly with a yes or no and then you might be able to see the other point of view.

I'll go further, do you believe George Zimmerman regrets getting out of the car that night? Answer that honestly and I think you'll be able to understand why people say SA is your best defense and part of that is avoiding conflict or putting yourself in a situation where conflict can occur. This is why this case is a good lesson for all of us who carry.
PAGunner is still only talking about the single point of Zimmerman, or anyone, exiting the vehicle.

Okay, is it this part that you're having trouble with?
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...I think you'll be able to understand why people say SA is your best defense and part of that is avoiding conflict or putting yourself in a situation where conflict can occur. This is why this case is a good lesson for all of us who carry.
If one takes that as a standalone comment, notwithstanding the earlier established "did not get out of his car" context, then your post makes sense, good sense.

People should be involved. They should, however, know how far to take that involvement.
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There are things you have to do in spite the risk; there are others you don’t have to. It is up to us to learn the difference.
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:04   #1238
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Last edited by Peace Warrior; 04-05-2012 at 07:18.. Reason: confused answers with two diff postings
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:13   #1239
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Neighborhood watch is not allowed to be armed. ...
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/police/flye...ch_english.pdf

Here is the URL for Sanford's brochure on neighborhood watch. I see no where in it where neighborhood watch participants are forbidden to be armed.

Please give me a cite or reason to believe that neighborhood watch participants are not allowed/should not be armed. (Remember, this is Florida, not Arizona, so the two may be different.)
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:17   #1240
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Without a doubt,... the Sanford police didn't give the parents the information they needed. The police, media, and parents have pretty much agreed on that.
Still waiting on when the Police advise they agreed they didn't give out NEEDED information as opposed to information WANTED by the parents. (And understandably so by the way. If I were a parent I would WANT the information too.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
... It's also common knowledge that played a part in the no confidence vote and police chief stepping down.
Are you sure the Police Chief didn't step down due to the actual "leaks" to the media/public and or the fact that Z was not arrested that night, or AFTER THE MEDIA, with the help of infamous racists, decided to play it up as a gun control issue instead of what it actually was/is?

STGO,

I am simply asking you to provide me with independent information which supports your claim(s) as I do not recall anything being mentioned or publicly released that backs up your assertions. In fact, it seems you are simply making "facts" up in order to under gird your own, individual suppositions about this entire event.

Look, you're not writing a newspaper article with a purely stylized entertainment value based on emotionalism in order to endear the masses to your point of view. Capisce?
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:26   #1241
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Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
Russ,
I am not saying that the parents of the teenager who was killed are right.
And I am not saying they are wrong for wanting answers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
What I am saying is that it is human nature to want answers immediately.
It is how we have evolved - instant gratification, fast food drive-thru, constant information approach to life.

I'm certain you've seen blooper clips from television shows and movies. That's where people make mistakes. Then they get to do the scene again, and again, and again, until they get it right. They finished product is seamless, a perfect flow.

Compare that to this situation. Every supposed fact discovered is a scene. Oops, that "fact" released three days ago has now been challenged and proven to be wrong, untrue, false. Can't go back and edit out the error. People believed it true when it was released. People are coming forward saying, "Yeah, that's how it happened...", only it could not in any way have happened in that manner. Oops...


Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
And Warp... everyone here is saying that it would take months before the police (right or wrong) would be able to release complete information.
Sometimes, discovering the totality of the circumstances takes that long.

Okay, back to television... Has anyone here ever heard on a crime show a suspect mention a fact about a case and the cop says, "How did you know that detail? We never released that information." BAM, evildoer caught because they knew something about the crime only the person committing it would.

Collecting recollections and eyewitness observations from witnesses independently without one knowing what the other has said is the same thing. One person may recollect a detail that does not match descriptions given by others. Then you have to research whether that detail is right or wrong. If you publish the detail...
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Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
Funny how this forum is working. I have said repeatedly that I believe Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. But so many people here have made up their minds about Travon's guilt, but Zimmermans stupidity.
That's how you see it? I wish I had the skill to graph the swings in opinion in this thread as rumors emerge, as rumors are debunked or confirmed. The chart would have to come with Dramamine...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
Russ, Misty, and Warp..... you are all way better people than me, if you can patiently sit back and wait for months for answers as to why your kid was killed.

I have no respect for the way the media has handled this and turned it into a race war. But only on the 'net can people sit back and complacently say how much better they would handle their kid being killed, and how ignorant others are for questioning (or understanding) how others might deal with it.
I do not believe we have said anyone is better or worse because of their wanting information.

Yep, the media and the glory hounds have exacerbated this event and complicated any understanding of what really happened that may come out of the investigation.

I've been questioning things since I was a teenager. Personal issues have been the toughest to question, and understanding the answers that came with the questions, that was difficult. I've made mistakes when I didn't look at both/all sides of the issue. Living with those mistakes reminds me why looking for the true cause of a situation is critically important. Life's lessons are hard.

I will say, again, that demanding every detail as it is discovered be published carries more risks than rewards.
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:45   #1242
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
I consider just the principle of not letting others mess with my stuff to be well worth risking my life for.

It can be an acceptable calculated risk dependng on skills, experience, ability, knowledge, etc.

On one hand Mr. Zimmerman's property did not seem to be in immediate jeopardy. On the other hand burglars have the ability to potentiall jeopardize anyone and everyone's property who is in the area.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
As closely as you have followed this, I'm really surprised you don't agree that the police didn't give the parents the information the parents wanted. But I have no doubt, that if you were the parent of the teenager who was killed, and if no arrest was made, you would sit patiently and wait. Believe it or not, there are parents who are not be as patient and understanding as you.
Honestly, if someone shot my dog, I doubt I could wait patiently for months to get answers as to why it happened.
Like it or not participants in events such as these generally need to wait months for final resolution. I do however wonder to what extent Sanford PD attempted to explain this to Martin's family. (Regardless of how much or little they attempted, the attempts did not work.)
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:51   #1243
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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
Still waiting on when the Police advise they agreed they didn't give out NEEDED information as opposed to information WANTED by the parents. (And understandably so by the way. If I were a parent I would WANT the information too.)


Are you sure the Police Chief didn't step down due to the actual "leaks" to the media/public and or the fact that Z was not arrested that night, or AFTER THE MEDIA, with the help of infamous racists, decided to play it up as a gun control issue instead of what it actually was/is?

STGO,

I am simply asking you to provide me with independent information which supports your claim(s) as I do not recall anything being mentioned or publicly released that backs up your assertions. In fact, it seems you are simply making "facts" up in order to under gird your own, individual suppositions about this entire event.

Look, you're not writing a newspaper article with a purely stylized entertainment value based on emotionalism in order to endear the masses to your point of view. Capisce?
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...n_shooting.pdf

It took all of 30 seconds to find, so if you really had any interest.
I'll save you a couple of pages...... just read the last paragraph.
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:08   #1244
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Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...n_shooting.pdf

It took all of 30 seconds to find, so if you really had any interest.
I'll save you a couple of pages...... just read the last paragraph.
Interesting read. Thanks, SpringerTGO
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:20   #1245
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Interesting read. Thanks, SpringerTGO
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...n_shooting.pdf

It took all of 30 seconds to find, so if you really had any interest.
I'll save you a couple of pages...... just read the last paragraph.
I believe I first posted this exact same link, on either this particular thread or one of GT's other Z & M threads, a LONG time ago. I've carefully read this specific release at least a dozen times before today.

You're refusing to give up your version of "facts" based on your view of what went wrong. What went wrong is that as far as we know, based on eyewitnesses and from other parties involved with this event, M attacked Z from behind.
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:22   #1246
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Without a doubt, for whatever reasons justifiable or not, the Sanford police didn't give the parents the information they needed. The police, media, and parents have pretty much agreed on that.
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Still waiting on when the Police advise they agreed they didn't give out NEEDED information as opposed to information WANTED by the parents.

I am simply asking you to provide me with independent information which supports your claim(s) as I do not recall anything being mentioned or publicly released that backs up your assertions. In fact, it seems you are simply making "facts" up in order to under gird your own, individual suppositions about this entire event.
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Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...n_shooting.pdf

It took all of 30 seconds to find, so if you really had any interest.
I'll save you a couple of pages...... just read the last paragraph.
Sorry, but the the last paragraph of the letter from the City Manager does not affirm your allegation that the police, media, and parents have pretty much agreed Sanford police didn't give the parents the information they needed.

The City Manager said, "Please understand that since this is still an ongoing investigation, the Police Department is limited in what information it can publicly release." is that what you're citing as your proof?
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:23   #1247
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Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...n_shooting.pdf

It took all of 30 seconds to find, so if you really had any interest.
I'll save you a couple of pages...... just read the last paragraph.
Other than the City Manager interjecting his own opinion (or the opinion he wanted to project), what do you believe that paragraph says? A few things to keep in mind (1) he is a politician, (2) he needs to find a way to maintain peace in the community while the investigation is on-going, (3) He may not be privy to all the information at hand.

Quote:
Although the Police Department is the target of the troubling questions, let me assure you we too feel the pain of this senseless tragedy that has dramatically affected our community. Therefore, as we move forward and strive to answer the questions that are a point of controversy in the community, we ask for your patience, understanding and assistance in getting the correct information to the community

.
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:33   #1248
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Gonna miss this thread when it's gone...... Lots of emotions shown here in a fairly civilized way.

I still think Z will walk ...... and while walking will be looking over his shoulder the rest of his life. Most likely his neighborhood watch days are behind him ......
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:46   #1249
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Like it or not participants in events such as these generally need to wait months for final resolution. I do however wonder to what extent Sanford PD attempted to explain this to Martin's family. (Regardless of how much or little they attempted, the attempts did not work.)
Bruce, explaining the procedure will not satisfy the desire for the information. That is a given.

I would like to know who initiated the March 8 huffingtonpost.com article eleven days after the shooting. Did the media contact the Martins, or did they contact the media. My guess is the HuffPost Miami, launched in November 2011, went to the parents.

That started the fire storm less than two weeks into the investigation...
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Old 04-05-2012, 09:16   #1250
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I consider just the principle of not letting others mess with my stuff to be well worth risking my life for.
Bren, I can agree with keeping others away from my stuff but not at great risk to my life, perps life or general well being. Shoot somebody for messing with your stuff may have you end up his cellie or in the same cemetary. At best you would be out a whole lot of lawyer costs. Stuff is just that, stuff.
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