When do I need an FFL?

lomfs24 · 02-27-2012, 23:28

I have built several rifles from scratch. Got the action, barrel, stock etc... and built one. Then if I didn't like it I would sell it. Kinda like a hobby sort of thing. At what point does it turn from being a hobby to being a business? And more specifically, at what point do I need to get an FFL? Can I build a certain number a year? Is it where I am getting my parts from? Or is it if I am making a profit?

Quite frankly, I would prefer to keep it a hobby and I would prefer not to get an FFL. But at the same time I don't want to cross the line and get hung out to dry.

Jon_R · 02-28-2012, 19:06

If face to face sales are allowed in your state without background checks then you can continue doing what you are doing. I don't believe there is a scale where once you move X number in 6 months you have to have an FFL. Just sell them in accordance to the laws of your state.

I am not sure what from scratch means. To build a rifle are you buying a part the is a firearm per ATF requiring you to fill out a 4473 and having a serial number then putting parts together? If you are from scratch meaning you are manufacturing a firearm never did a 4473 and the finished product has no serial number you got problems and lots of challenges ahead.

lomfs24 · 02-28-2012, 19:15

OK, thanks. I don't make parts. I buy them. And you are correct, the action has the serial and I have to fill out the 4473.

dbyer1 · 04-15-2012, 21:09

If you are doing it as a buisness you have to have a ffl and since you are building guns you with have to make ITAR payment 2500 a year I would say you are treading on thin ice now more so with ITAR than ATF! Also there is FET on ever gun if you mAke more than 50 a year

lomfs24 · 04-16-2012, 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbyer1

If you are doing it as a buisness you have to have a ffl and since you are building guns you with have to make ITAR payment 2500 a year I would say you are treading on thin ice now more so with ITAR than ATF! Also there is FET on ever gun if you mAke more than 50 a year

Couple acronyms I am not familiar with. ITAR and FET.

I got a voicemail back from the Kansas ATF office and basically what he said was there is no set number of guns that you build each year that would qualify you as a person who needs an FFL. Basically he said that if you build guns...period, you need an FFL. I am not sure if he fully understood what I was talking about so it would seem that it's a vocabulary thing. If I bought and action and placed a barrel on it and placed a stock on it and used it until I was tired of it and sold it. I would be OK. But if I "built" it from parts, I would need an FFL.

Nickotym · 04-17-2012, 08:26

This sounds like a gray area and it would definitely be worth a visit to a lawyer well-versed in firearms and firearms law.
A good lawyer can keep you out of trouble.

dbyer1 · 04-17-2012, 18:40

If you are in buisness ie you plan to make money at this you have to have a ffl, ITAR is for manufactures, FET is federal excise tax and once you make 50 guns in a year you owe for every one you made rifles I think are 10%, google ITAR you find out more than you ever wanted to know

lomfs24 · 04-17-2012, 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbyer1

If you are in buisness ie you plan to make money at this you have to have a ffl, ITAR is for manufactures, FET is federal excise tax and once you make 50 guns in a year you owe for every one you made rifles I think are 10%, google ITAR you find out more than you ever wanted to know

I don't plan on making money, and quite frankly, I suspect I will lose money on the deal. It's more of a way to get custom built expensive rifles cheaply. ie. I build a rifle and have a couple grand in it, shoot it for a while, sell it for $1700 and use that money to start the next one. That way I only have to put $300 out of pocket for the next one each time taking what I liked from the previous builds to make the next one better. As I have no shop of my own and anything that would entail changing dimensions of a steel part would require a gunsmith.

So, I guess, think of this, not as a business but a way to fund custom rifles cheaper than having to build them all out of pocket cash.

dbyer1 · 04-22-2012, 07:55

If you are doing it as a hobby you are more than likely ok, I think what you are now saying is you build your self a rifle and when you get tired of it you sell it,