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Old 02-19-2012, 17:59   #21
D3S3RT_P3NGU1N
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Sounds to me as if NYPD needs to learn to keep their booger hooks off the bang switch
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Old 02-19-2012, 18:02   #22
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Originally Posted by ronin.45 View Post
If the officers took the time to learn proper firearm safety they wouldn't be having all these "accidents"! Anyone who thinks a 12-13# trigger is required for safety is an idiot. Kahr was not able to make their trigger pull that bad so the NYPD disallowed them.
Exactly! I think Kahr was able to push the trigger pull up to 10 lbs and still have it function nicely. Obviously that wasn't good enough for NYPD. I really feel for all the NYPD officers out there.
I still can't believe that they have 12 lb triggers on their Glocks. It's no wonder so many never legitimately pass their qualifications without some assistance.
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Old 02-19-2012, 18:03   #23
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. . .The striker is in the exact same 3/4 (if not more) cocked position on both. The reason the trigger feels different is because Kahr has made it so that you have to pull further to get the same mechanical movement of the striker, making the trigger feel smoother. Kahr has nothing sitting in front of the striker as a back up safety like Glock does.
As I understand it, Kahr does have a striker block in the way of the striker. Pulling the trigger moves something that in turn moves the block out of the way. It is diagramed and descibed in a Kahr brochere I have. Here it is described on Wikipedia:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahr_Arms

And here go to the tab half way down the middle of the page, tab called "slide assembly" and you can see the actual part called "striker block" and currently costs $28.60.

http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-PM9.asp
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Old 02-19-2012, 18:10   #24
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Originally Posted by ronin.45 View Post
If the officers took the time to learn proper firearm safety they wouldn't be having all these "accidents"! Anyone who thinks a 12-13# trigger is required for safety is an idiot. Kahr was not able to make their trigger pull that bad so the NYPD disallowed them.
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Old 02-19-2012, 18:15   #25
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What pistol meets your high standards?
Not my standards rather the standards of the NYPD. BUT WHAT WOULD THEY KNOW.

BTW Glock, Smith and Wesson and Sig all have no problems meeting the requirements. So what is Kahr's issue
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Old 02-19-2012, 18:16   #26
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Just how do you get Kahr dropping the NYPD out of that article?
Kahr quite trying to meet the NYPD standard. ie: Kahr dropped NYPD.

Kahr has been given MULTIPLE chances by the NYPD over the years to remediate their POS pistol. Kahr tried but couldn't get their guns to hold a trigger job to the department standards.
Department "standards" are retarded.

Years ago a prohibition on new Kahrs was enacted with current ones being grandfathered. Now, there has been such a spate of severe trigger failures that FTS has decided to remove them totally from service for officer safety.
The trigger "failures" are due to the trigger weight being so far out of the original design parameters that the requirements cause the problems. Just like New Jersey's ridiculous neutering on the SW99 .40 magazines which resulted in feed issues. Idiots behind a desk second guessing firearms designers is the root cause of the failures.

To the rest of the posters with their wise comments, how many armed officers do you train and maintain pistols, rifles, shotguns and sub guns each year?
I don't have to be a professional football coach to know the St. Louis Rams suck and are making poor decisions that are negatively affecting their performance.

If the answer is less than 35,000 then may I suggest you could learn a thing or two from the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Section
Learn what? How to turn out 35,000 mediocre to poor shooters with finger discipline issues? No thanks.

They are always willing to help brother departments
How many departments have followed NYPD's "lead in adopting 12#+ trigger pulls on their firearms? Looks to me like nobody wants your "help".

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Old 02-19-2012, 18:17   #27
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Old 02-19-2012, 18:17   #28
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I actually like the ergos of the 26... just feels like a smaller version of my 19. My dad has a 27 and I love it, but you are right about not being a "true subcompact". It's kinda big... which is the only thing pushing me towards the Kahr.
The obvious solution is to buy them both.

Or get a 26 and an LCP, that makes a nice combination. One for carry most the time, and the other for when your clothing or situation requires a really small gun.
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Old 02-19-2012, 18:24   #29
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btw: FLETC runs just as many USBP agents through their academy as the NYPD does and they are just fine with a 6# LEM trigger and have far fewer ND issues.
I shoot with their instructor cadre and many of their Agents and to a man they are solid on safety and the fundamentals.
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Old 02-19-2012, 18:25   #30
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Originally Posted by seanmac45 View Post
Not my standards rather the standards of the NYPD. BUT WHAT WOULD THEY KNOW.

BTW Glock, Smith and Wesson and Sig all have no problems meeting the requirements. So what is Kahr's issue
I think you are right here. Not sure why so many take issue with this part of the discussion. It is simply a matter of satisfying the customer.

If a customer went to the ithaca_deerslayer factory and said they wanted an order of 30,000 handguns and they want it to have a 13lb trigger, I'd say "Ok" and then we'd just negotiate the price for that modification. I suppose I could just say "No", but that wouldn't seem good business.
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Old 02-19-2012, 18:37   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NMGlocker View Post
btw: FLETC runs just as many USBP agents through their academy as the NYPD does and they are just fine with a 6# LEM trigger and have far fewer ND issues.
I shoot with their instructor cadre and many of their Agents and to a man they are solid on safety and the fundamentals.

Can you provide a reference for the ND stats of either the FLETC OR the USBP? Because if not your just blowing smoke.

Either way, your opinion of the NYPD counts for naught no matter how many cadres you shoot with

I am done with this thread have fun.
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Old 02-19-2012, 18:37   #32
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Not my standards rather the standards of the NYPD. BUT WHAT WOULD THEY KNOW.

BTW Glock, Smith and Wesson and Sig all have no problems meeting the requirements. So what is Kahr's issue
"BUT WHAT WOULD THEY KNOW?"

They are cops! When it comes to guns they know nothing! As a community, they are known to be sub-par shooters who don't care about practicing or training. As an organization, the NYPD is much more concerned about the legal ramifications of their officers shooting someone than making a gun more functional or safer. They would be far better off focusing a little more on training their idiots than making a perfectly good gun idiot proof.

"what is Kahr's issue?"

They use a different trigger mechanism than all the other manufacturers you mentioned. Why would you think they COULD do the exact same thing to theirs? If the designers of a machine say it can't be done, why would you doubt them? I guarantee you that Kahr's engineers know more about P9s than the NYPD does.
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Old 02-19-2012, 18:39   #33
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Kahr has been given MULTIPLE chances by the NYPD over the years to remediate their POS pistol. Kahr tried but couldn't get their guns to hold a trigger job to the department standards.
Who would try to do a trigger job on a KAHR? It is the lightest, smoothest double action only trigger I have ever felt. More than likely they were trying to make it heavier in some way, and the KAHR trigger group doesn't lend itself to being made worse.
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Old 02-19-2012, 19:00   #34
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Who would try to do a trigger job on a KAHR? It is the lightest, smoothest double action only trigger I have ever felt. More than likely they were trying to make it heavier in some way, and the KAHR trigger group doesn't lend itself to being made worse.
It is an ok double action trigger, but.....

There are many who would like to make their Khar trigger more Glock like. (Myself being one of them.)

If Glock made a gun the size of a PM9, ......
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Old 02-19-2012, 19:16   #35
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Makes it sound like the NYPD rank and file have room temperature IQs.
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Old 02-19-2012, 19:28   #36
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The obvious solution is to buy them both.
You are so right! Problem is, I really don't have the money to buy both right now... I will probably get them both eventually, but right now it's one or the other.
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Old 02-19-2012, 20:01   #37
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Accidental discharges oops it just went off . Where was your finger and where were you pointing it ? Doesn't any one of these brilliant lawyer types get that there is no such thing as an accidental discharge ? The only accidental discharge is a negligent discharge, period , shooter's fault, end of story .....
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Old 02-19-2012, 20:10   #38
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I have several Kahrs, though I don't own the T9. I have the P40's and K40's.

I have no issues with the metal K40's; they're reliable functional, and the trigger is one of the best features (size being the other).

The P40's have had reliability issues; failure to return to battery being the primary issue. The handguns tend to hang out of battery by a very slight amount, primarily when the magazine is full. Upward pressure of the magazine on the slide causes the slide to poorly engage the back of the rails as it comes home, and it's not uncommon for the slide to hang out of battery just slightly.

I've had this happen many times, and can duplicate it in handling by hand-cycling the slide, easily. When performing double taps, if the slide didn't return all the way, it was noticeable in the trigger generally, or on the rare occasion, by the click as the trigger was fine, but the striker was tripped and the slide dropped home. The pistol had to be recycled by hand before it could be fired again.

On one occasion several years ago, I didn't detect that the slide hadn't returned fully to battery, and when I pressed the trigger, concentrating only on the front sight, the P40 discharged. I felt an odd burning in my right hand and along my face below my safety goggles. When I took my focus from the front sight, I saw the side panel of the firearm blown out and it was burns on my hand and face that I felt.

The weapon discharged out of battery, cycled without any lock time, and the pressure vented into the magazine and out the "blow out" panel that covers the trigger draw bar. Kahr informed me it was designed that way, for just such a reason.

I sent my P40 back to Kahr, as I had several times before; they replaced the slide, but not the frame, sending back the frame with the same crooked blow-out panel/draw-bar cover pushed into place, and told me they couldn't find anything wrong (why did they replace the slide, then?). The pistol continued having failures to return to battery.

I believe they could easily solve the return to battery issue by changing the radius on the cuts and rails at the rear of the frame and in the slide. The pistols are light and comfortable, especially when carrying for long periods. I don't carry any of mine now, because I don't trust them any more; far too many trips back to Kahr (with replacement of barrel, slide, and other parts each time), and far too many of the same malfunctions between each of the same or similar models that I have. I like them; I have hope for them some day but they sit in my safe for now.

The trigger is the absolute least of the issues with Kahr, and in my opinion, it's one of the best features. It's smooth, easy to shoot quickly and accurately, and has absolutely NO need of a heavier weight. Anyone that can't safely carry and shoot the firearm has some serious handling issues. Then again, the NYPD is known for that, which is why the NYPD has such heavy Glock triggers in the first place. (The NYPD is the only thing wrong with Glock, but that's a different topic). What do we expect from a city and state that's so anti-firearm?

The beauty of the Kahr trigger is that it requires no safety, is very safety to carry and handle, and doesn't discharge unless the trigger is pressed. Even in my case, the firearm didn't go off until I pressed the trigger. I don't believe for a moment that if I had dropped the weapon, it would have discharged; it wouldn't. It couldn't. If I'd struck it from the rear, the most that would have happened would have been the slide slipping home, and making the weapon fully safe to fire again. The fault, and I've seen it in numerous Kahrs, is failure to return to battery. Fix that, and it's a great weapon. It occurs only in the polymer Kahrs that I've seen, and thus far I've only seen it happen in the .40's; never in the 9's.
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Old 02-19-2012, 20:21   #39
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I actually like the ergos of the 26... just feels like a smaller version of my 19. My dad has a 27 and I love it, but you are right about not being a "true subcompact". It's kinda big... which is the only thing pushing me towards the Kahr.
I have PM9, G26, G19, G17. So maybe I can help.

The PM9 is a great gun with a special purpose. If you need a VERY small gun for personal protection then this is it. This is NOT the gun I want for home protection. This is not the gun I would want in a protracted battle. To be perfectly honest, it is not fun at the range. It is on the other hand perfect for it's job.

If you are looking for a side arm/home protection/target shooting gun, then you can look at the Glock line.

The worst part about the Glock line is deciding if you want baby, mid, full sized gun. I find most shooters shoot the full size slightly better, but I think the more experienced you are the more the advantages of the full size disappear.

One more thing, I find the conversion kit worth it.
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Old 02-19-2012, 20:23   #40
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