GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-19-2012, 14:19   #1
ajgranda
Senior Member
 
ajgranda's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Westchester, NY
Posts: 1,058
The real reason NYPD disallowed Kahrs for off duty!

I've been hearing and reading a lot of misinformation on the subject. So here is the truth. It's more like Kahr dropped NYPD.




http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011...rass-kahr-arms
__________________
Retired LEO
HR 218 Qualified (Rockland County, NY Police Academy)

Last edited by ajgranda; 02-19-2012 at 14:19..
ajgranda is offline  
Old 02-19-2012, 14:22   #2
Narkcop
Senior Member
 
Narkcop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 2,701
Truth be told I think NYPD brass would prefer it if their Police were unarmed and just talked real nice to people so that they wouldn't break the law.
Narkcop is offline  
Old 02-19-2012, 14:52   #3
Beretta92guy
Senior Member
 
Beretta92guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,646
well what is the trigger weight on those Kahrs, 2 pounds?????
Beretta92guy is offline  
Old 02-19-2012, 14:58   #4
P35
Senior Member
 
P35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Posts: 232
looks like some of the NYCPD have poor firearm handling skills

Last edited by P35; 02-19-2012 at 14:58..
P35 is offline  
Old 02-19-2012, 15:38   #5
plouffedaddy
Senior Member
 
plouffedaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Carolina
Posts: 2,215
The NYPD and other departments fear of negligent discharges is mind boggling to me. A former LEO myself, I think the risk of missing a target due to a 10lb or more trigger pull is much greater than the risk of a 5lb trigger being too light. I understand adrenaline and all, but there is nothing wrong with most factory triggers as far as safety is concerned.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Certified Glock Armorer
plouffedaddy is offline  
Old 02-19-2012, 15:55   #6
seanmac45
CLM Number 38
Charter Lifetime Member
 
seanmac45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 6,196


Quote:
Originally Posted by ajgranda View Post
I've been hearing and reading a lot of misinformation on the subject. So here is the truth. It's more like Kahr dropped NYPD.




http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011...rass-kahr-arms

Just how do you get Kahr dropping the NYPD out of that article?

Kahr has been given MULTIPLE chances by the NYPD over the years to remediate their POS pistol. Kahr tried but couldn't get their guns to hold a trigger job to the department standards.

Years ago a prohibition on new Kahrs was enacted with current ones being grandfathered. Now, there has been such a spate of severe trigger failures that FTS has decided to remove them totally from service for officer safety.

To the rest of the posters with their wise comments, how many armed officers do you train and maintain pistols, rifles, shotguns and sub guns each year?

If the answer is less than 35,000 then may I suggest you could learn a thing or two from the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Section

They are always willing to help brother departments
__________________
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter." Ernest Hemingway

Last edited by seanmac45; 02-19-2012 at 15:59..
seanmac45 is offline  
Old 02-19-2012, 16:13   #7
oldsoldier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: MO
Posts: 1,283
I looked the gun up and it is a trigger cocking DAO pistol. Your comments has me curious. Are you saying the failures are due to the gun firing without the trigger pulled say from dropping it? Otherwise I don't see how it could fire without the officer pulling the trigger.
oldsoldier is offline  
Old 02-19-2012, 16:35   #8
cowboywannabe
you savvy?
 
cowboywannabe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: on a planet near you
Posts: 22,323
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsoldier View Post
I looked the gun up and it is a trigger cocking DAO pistol. Your comments has me curious. Are you saying the failures are due to the gun firing without the trigger pulled say from dropping it? Otherwise I don't see how it could fire without the officer pulling the trigger.
tagged for clarification and answer.
__________________
with Sarah Jane, Leela, Romana, Nyssa, and Tegan.

Facts are no match against enthusiasm and ignorance...
cowboywannabe is offline  
Old 02-19-2012, 16:47   #9
El_Ron1
AAAAAAAAGHHH!!!
 
El_Ron1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Redneck Sparta
Posts: 88,923
Donuts take out more cops that Kahr ever could.
__________________
“If you can play on the fiddle,
How's about a British jig and reel?"
El_Ron1 is offline  
Old 02-19-2012, 16:55   #10
seanmac45
CLM Number 38
Charter Lifetime Member
 
seanmac45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 6,196


There were a series of issues. Some involved the striker safeties failing but the biggest problems involve the trigger pull weights falling bellow accepted minimum standards. Whether others agree with their standard weight or not it was a basic requirement for them to remain in service. Kahr hated to lose the NYPD account, but their product was not up to standards.
__________________
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter." Ernest Hemingway
seanmac45 is offline  
Old 02-19-2012, 16:56   #11
Narkcop
Senior Member
 
Narkcop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 2,701
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmac45 View Post
Just how do you get Kahr dropping the NYPD out of that article?

Kahr has been given MULTIPLE chances by the NYPD over the years to remediate their POS pistol. Kahr tried but couldn't get their guns to hold a trigger job to the department standards.

Years ago a prohibition on new Kahrs was enacted with current ones being grandfathered. Now, there has been such a spate of severe trigger failures that FTS has decided to remove them totally from service for officer safety.

To the rest of the posters with their wise comments, how many armed officers do you train and maintain pistols, rifles, shotguns and sub guns each year?

If the answer is less than 35,000 then may I suggest you could learn a thing or two from the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Section

They are always willing to help brother departments
What pistol meets your high standards?
Narkcop is offline  
Old 02-19-2012, 17:06   #12
Metal Angel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmac45 View Post
Just how do you get Kahr dropping the NYPD out of that article?
He is saying that by refusing to accommodate the NYPD's ridiculous demand of a 13lb trigger, Kahr is effectively dropping NYPD.

I agree with Kahr that a 13lb trigger would be ridiculous. I don't think my wife could even pull a 13lb trigger, let alone squeeze off accurate shots. Also, I don't see how you could accidentally pull a Kahr trigger- the pull is so loooong. Especially when Glock triggers are shorter and lighter... Which brings me to my next point.

I recently did some research on the Kahr action, and I'll be honest, it has me concerned. Whatever they call it, it's not truly double action, it's 3/4 of the way to single action, which means if something slips inside, it CAN fire. Glocks are the same way, but not including the trigger safety, it has two internal safeties, which means you have a backup if one fails. The Kahr SHOULD never fail, but I am a service tech, and I know mechanical things that should never fail still do fail. I think Kahr calls the striker block an "internal safety", but to me, a safety is something that accounts for failure of normal operation... Like what Glock has.

Anyway, not bashing Kahr... but I am second guessing the PM9 purchase I had planned for this week. It might turn into a 26.
Metal Angel is offline  
Old 02-19-2012, 17:20   #13
Sgt127
Senior Member
 
Sgt127's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,515
I have several Glocks and Kahrs. I think the striker on a Glock is far more pre-loaded than a Kahr. All that trigger pull on the Kahr goes for loading up the striker. And, safety wise, they are identical as far as the firing pin safety. Slightly different way of accomplishing it, but, same net result.
Sgt127 is offline  
Old 02-19-2012, 17:30   #14
ajgranda
Senior Member
 
ajgranda's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Westchester, NY
Posts: 1,058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal Angel View Post
He is saying that by refusing to accommodate the NYPD's ridiculous demand of a 13lb trigger, Kahr is effectively dropping NYPD.
Precisely!
__________________
Retired LEO
HR 218 Qualified (Rockland County, NY Police Academy)
ajgranda is offline  
Old 02-19-2012, 17:34   #15
ajgranda
Senior Member
 
ajgranda's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Westchester, NY
Posts: 1,058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal Angel View Post

Anyway, not bashing Kahr... but I am second guessing the PM9 purchase I had planned for this week. It might turn into a 26.
I wouldn't second guess the PM9. That's going to be my next purchase for Hot weather carry. It is considerably smaller and lighter than the G26. The G26 is not a "true" subcompact. The same goes for XD40sc. If that doesn't matter to you then go for the G26, although I never cared for it's ergos when I had one and bought the XD40sc.
__________________
Retired LEO
HR 218 Qualified (Rockland County, NY Police Academy)
ajgranda is offline  
Old 02-19-2012, 17:40   #16
Metal Angel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt127 View Post
I have several Glocks and Kahrs. I think the striker on a Glock is far more pre-loaded than a Kahr. All that trigger pull on the Kahr goes for loading up the striker. And, safety wise, they are identical as far as the firing pin safety. Slightly different way of accomplishing it, but, same net result.
No.

http://www.kahr.com/kahr-unique-design.asp
http://us.glock.com/technology

The Glock site is flash, so I can't give you a direct link, but you should be able to find it. The striker is in the exact same 3/4 (if not more) cocked position on both. The reason the trigger feels different is because Kahr has made it so that you have to pull further to get the same mechanical movement of the striker, making the trigger feel smoother. Kahr has nothing sitting in front of the striker as a back up safety like Glock does.
Metal Angel is offline  
Old 02-19-2012, 17:41   #17
ithaca_deerslayer
Senior Member
 
ithaca_deerslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Posts: 20,254
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmac45 View Post
There were a series of issues. Some involved the striker safeties failing but the biggest problems involve the trigger pull weights falling bellow accepted minimum standards. Whether others agree with their standard weight or not it was a basic requirement for them to remain in service. Kahr hated to lose the NYPD account, but their product was not up to standards.
Can you clarify even further?

Did NYPD find a problem with Kahr pistols "going off" by themselves, or did officers just accidentally pull the triggers (or have somethine like a jacket drawstring get caught in the trigger)? Seems like these are the only two possibilites, and everything else is secondary.

I ask this question because I have a Kahr. I want to know if it will just "go off" on its own.

This issue perhaps is similar to Glock, where someone pulls the trigger then says the gun went off on its own. Glock offers different trigger weights if individuals or departments want a heavier pull. If Kahr doesn't offer the particular weight NYPD wants, I don't see how that makes Kahr a POS.

I've pointed out on GT some potential problems that might contribute to jams in the Kahr pistol, and I've described potential fixes, and what worked for me. But that still doesn't make the Kahr a POS.

But there might be other information you have, so that is why I'm asking. This also affects how I respond to newbies I instruct in person, who may ask for carry gun suggestions.

Thank you for any further info
ithaca_deerslayer is offline  
Old 02-19-2012, 17:43   #18
Metal Angel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajgranda View Post
I wouldn't second guess the PM9. That's going to be my next purchase for Hot weather carry. It is considerably smaller and lighter than the G26. The G26 is not a "true" subcompact. The same goes for XD40sc. If that doesn't matter to you then go for the G26, although I never cared for it's ergos when I had one and bought the XD40sc.
I actually like the ergos of the 26... just feels like a smaller version of my 19. My dad has a 27 and I love it, but you are right about not being a "true subcompact". It's kinda big... which is the only thing pushing me towards the Kahr.
Metal Angel is offline  
Old 02-19-2012, 17:44   #19
ronin.45
Senior Member
 
ronin.45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NE OHIO
Posts: 9,288
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmac45 View Post
Just how do you get Kahr dropping the NYPD out of that article?

Kahr has been given MULTIPLE chances by the NYPD over the years to remediate their POS pistol. Kahr tried but couldn't get their guns to hold a trigger job to the department standards.

Years ago a prohibition on new Kahrs was enacted with current ones being grandfathered. Now, there has been such a spate of severe trigger failures that FTS has decided to remove them totally from service for officer safety.

To the rest of the posters with their wise comments, how many armed officers do you train and maintain pistols, rifles, shotguns and sub guns each year?

If the answer is less than 35,000 then may I suggest you could learn a thing or two from the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Section

They are always willing to help brother departments
If the officers took the time to learn proper firearm safety they wouldn't be having all these "accidents"! Anyone who thinks a 12-13# trigger is required for safety is an idiot. Kahr was not able to make their trigger pull that bad so the NYPD disallowed them.
__________________
As I go through life I keep coming to the same conclusion, people are generally stupid.
ronin.45 is offline  
Old 02-19-2012, 17:46   #20
cowboy1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 15,439
7.5 lbs is too light of a trigger? Good grief. No wonder they install NY-2 triggers in their Glock 19s. And Kahr's have long pulls too, if the PM9 is typical of them.

Supposedly NYPD wanted a heavy Glock trigger because of all the old-timers that transitioned from revolvers. It's time to move on, NYPD.

Last edited by cowboy1964; 02-19-2012 at 18:06..
cowboy1964 is offline  

 
  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:20.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 944
260 Members
684 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31