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Old 02-18-2012, 11:16   #26
Sonnytoo
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I sold all four of my .40's and went to 9mm's. I have them all; no G18. No regrets.
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Old 02-18-2012, 12:19   #27
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I will never understand people that think 9mm is not enough.
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Old 02-18-2012, 12:52   #28
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Either would be a great and, while both have their pros 'n cons, neither leaves the other in the dust, so to speak. The G26 will be more affordable to shoot and, perhaps, be more kinetically enjoyable to shoot as well. I kinda like the G27, but I wouldn't fault anyone who shoots a G26.
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Old 02-18-2012, 13:03   #29
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The 33 is superior to both. That is what my wife carries. Recoil is no different than a 9mm+p and the muzzle energy is way higher. I got her a .40 barrel for it for Valentines day and couldn't believe how much harder it was to shoot than the .357sig. You can buy .357sig for almost the same price as .40. I feel very comfortable with her carrying that pistol.
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Old 02-18-2012, 13:16   #30
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I'm amused how people seem to compare the .40 S&W to standard pressure 9mm and talk about how the 9 is more pleasant to shoot. Compare a 9mm round which is ballistically equivalent, in other words a +P+ 9mm if you want a fair comparison. I'm also confused as to why people want to throw in the fact that you can use standard pressure 9mm for plinking in the G26. Is a sub-compact weapon really your idea of a good plinker? A full size weapon with the reduced power rounds, would be my idea of 9MM plinker. It's heavier and therefore will have even less recoil and a longer sight plane. Be honest with yourselves folks when doing these comparisons. Don't try to compare oranges to pineapples.
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Old 02-18-2012, 13:28   #31
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Thanks... that is what I was looking for.

So if I am reading the muzzle energy graphs right, it looks like:
G26 energy = 280-420 depending on the round
G26 energy = loses about 20-40 compared to a G19

G27 energy = 350-500 depending on the round
G27 energy = loses about 20-40 compared to a G23

Does that look right?
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Old 02-18-2012, 19:28   #32
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I will never understand people that think 9mm is not enough.
Yet the resulting argument would be that the 9 rounds of .40 In the G27 would not be enough, which is equally ridiculous.
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Old 02-18-2012, 19:31   #33
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Yet the resulting argument would be that the 9 rounds of .40 In the G27 would not be enough, which is equally ridiculous.
I totally agree.
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Old 02-18-2012, 19:56   #34
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Originally Posted by Kamikaze1384 View Post
The 33 is superior to both. That is what my wife carries. Recoil is no different than a 9mm+p and the muzzle energy is way higher. I got her a .40 barrel for it for Valentines day and couldn't believe how much harder it was to shoot than the .357sig. You can buy .357sig for almost the same price as .40. I feel very comfortable with her carrying that pistol.
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you keep telling yourself that....the last thing i need is a 357 sig round going through the bad guy and into a bystander, or leaving my house and going into the neighbors house....

btw, how can you say recoil is the same as 9mm, when its a 9mm bullet in a cased down 40 cal shell...
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Old 02-18-2012, 20:25   #35
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Originally Posted by Dave Nowlin View Post
I'm amused how people seem to compare the .40 S&W to standard pressure 9mm and talk about how the 9 is more pleasant to shoot. Compare a 9mm round which is ballistically equivalent, in other words a +P+ 9mm if you want a fair comparison. I'm also confused as to why people want to throw in the fact that you can use standard pressure 9mm for plinking in the G26. Is a sub-compact weapon really your idea of a good plinker? A full size weapon with the reduced power rounds, would be my idea of 9MM plinker. It's heavier and therefore will have even less recoil and a longer sight plane. Be honest with yourselves folks when doing these comparisons. Don't try to compare oranges to pineapples.
9mm 127 +P+ has less felt recoil and calculated recoil than 40 in the 26/27 platform. Same with comparing the 19/23. My Glock 32 has been used as a 23 with a OEM 23 barrel almost the whole 11 years I have had it. I got rid of my 27 because I found it annoying to shoot, I like the HK P2000sk 40 much better. 27 is fine for who it works for, I don't care for it.
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Old 02-18-2012, 20:48   #36
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In the best LE/SD loading's, 9/357/40 are all good rounds.
The G27 can run all three calibers.
And you can use the next size up barrels (4.02") if you want
the extra ballistics.

That versatility is the real strength of the G27 IMHO.
It allows us to individually find the best caliber/round we
are most proficient with.

Not paper comparisons of FPS or muzzle energy.

Putting bullets on target in a high risk, high stress, situation is the key.

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Old 02-18-2012, 21:06   #37
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Originally Posted by vmann View Post
you keep telling yourself that....the last thing i need is a 357 sig round going through the bad guy and into a bystander, or leaving my house and going into the neighbors house....

btw, how can you say recoil is the same as 9mm, when its a 9mm bullet in a cased down 40 cal shell...
You don't think a 9MM or a .40 will go through a bad guy? To be fair that can happen with any caliber if you choose to take the shot.
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Old 02-18-2012, 21:22   #38
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I would refer to where you put the bullet. A .22 in the the eye socket works better than a .44 mag. in the shoulder. I am showing my age here, but when the 10mm hit the scene years ago, starting in the form of the Bren Ten pistol. They couldn't sell enough to stay in business. A few other manufacturers started making a 10mm model. But they still didn't sell very well.

At the time S&W pretty much had the Law Enforcement market, almost to the extent that if S&W made a sling shot, depts. would probably issue them. So S&W got an idea to take the the bullet out of the 10mm, shorten the case, use less powder, re-insert the bullet and call it the .40 S&W.

Police department administrators everywhere wanted the new wonder caliber from S&W. And S&W started there add campaign as "Larger than a 9mm and Faster than a .45"

Fact is, it's also slower than a 9mm and smaller than a .45 I guess for me personally, it filled a niche that didn't need filled. And I figure that if I had to shoot anyone center mass, they will not be able to notice the difference between the 45, 40 or 9mm. And I do prefer the recoil of the 9 or .45 over the .40. and as much ammo that I shoot, it's saves me quite a bit of money. Just an old farts two cents.
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Old 02-18-2012, 21:40   #39
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Originally Posted by vmann View Post
you keep telling yourself that....the last thing i need is a 357 sig round going through the bad guy and into a bystander, or leaving my house and going into the neighbors house....

btw, how can you say recoil is the same as 9mm, when its a 9mm bullet in a cased down 40 cal shell...
I can say it because I have personally shot all 3 out of the same pistol. Honestly a light .357sig will probably penetrate less than a heavy slower .40. The sig is going so fast that the bullets just don't hold together. I have a good friend that is a police officer and was in a shoot out last year. He was carrying a .357sig glock. The guys shooting at him were in a pickup truck. He unloaded 2 magazines into that truck and only 2 or 3 actually penetrated the sheet metal. They fragment due to the speed.
I just got back from shooting with some friends this evening. We had between us a full size glock in .357 and 9, and my wife's 33 with all three barrels. We shot them all just to compare. The .40 recoils harder than the sig. It comes down to a heavy bullet vs a lighter bullet. When shooting steel plates the 9 and 40 smushed and flew into the air on impact and the sig vaporized in a grey cloud of dust.
That's my personal opinion biased on my experience. I don't carry any of those myself. I keep a Glock 29SF with 165g 10mm 1400 fps hollow points with me. you know, the way a .40 was meant to be.
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Old 02-18-2012, 23:54   #40
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A Gold Dot 357 Sig will generally outpenetrate a 9mm, .40, and .45, with or without barriers. Note that does not mean OVERpenetrate however.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/GoldDotPoster.pdf

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Old 02-19-2012, 14:43   #41
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Originally Posted by ES13Raven View Post
I'm trying to decide between a G26 and G27...

Why I want the G27:
1. I have 2 other .40cal handguns - ammo would work in all
2. Bigger round, more stopping power etc.

Why I want the G26:
1. Holds 1 more round than the G27
2. Less recoil, get back on target easier
3. Ammo is much cheaper
4. Easier for Fiancee to shoot if needed

I am leaning towards the G26, but am concerned that the 9mm and short barrel = less stopping power, so the G27 might be a better choice.

Where can I find ballistics comparing the G26 & G27 vs. normal barrel lengths?
Be cautious of accepting "ballistics comparisons" & "stopping power" guesstimates at face value.

They're still just a couple of medium-bore defensive handguns chambered in a couple of the more popularly used service-type calibers.

Yes, unless your fiancee is a skilled, well-practiced and experienced shooter, she's likely to feel the G26 offers her a more controllable shooting experience. Maybe still even if she is an experienced shooter. Some folks simply prefer the G26 to the G27 when it comes to felt recoil and how it's perceived, as well as overall recoil management. Just depends.

I own both, myself. I've run a fair number of rounds through each subcompact (meaning more than 12K rounds of each caliber in the subcompact Glock 9/.40 models).

Some other thoughts I recently posted in a similar thread elsewhere in this forum:

Perception of felt recoil is very subjective and can easily vary among shooters, or even be experienced differently by the same shooter on different days, even using the same guns/ammo. Just depends.

FWIW, I can generally distinguish between standard pressure, +P & +P+ in my various 9's, as long as I'm going slowly and paying attention, trying to notice the difference while engaged in slow-fire 'target type' shooting. That's probably because I'm relaxed, not distracted by expecting to be shot by the paper target and I'm expecting to be able to distinguish the difference.

However, once I start running the guns in fast-paced, demanding courses-of-fire I don't often notice the difference. My attention is more focused on identifying designated threat targets from non-threat targets, doing whatever drills are being required during the various courses of fire, remaining aware of loading as needed (slide-lock) or by choice, using barricades/cover, moving & shooting, shooting while moving, doing both 1 & 2-handed shooting from either hand, etc. Too busy to try and distinguish the level of felt recoil.

That said, I can usually notice a difference between shooting my similarly sized .40's and 9's, even when shooting 124gr +P & 127gr +P+ loads in my 9's.

Problematic? Not so much. Then again, I've fired some ten's of thousands of rounds of .40 since I bought my first one back about 2000 (I presently own 5), and was later issued a couple of them at different times.

I look at it as a training & familiarity issue.

I've worked with some folks who are very sensitive and aware of the differences in felt recoil between most 9's & .40's, especially when we were using +P+ loads for a bit, and yet other folks weren't as aware of the difference. Just depended on the individual, and it wasn't always predictable by their expressed level of interest in shooting, their experience or their preference for any particular caliber.

Even when running folks who claimed they couldn't notice a difference between 9/.40 through various drills, though, sometimes the timer would tell a different story, as they'd often be faster with the 9's, or at least less likely to anticipate recoil and miss shots.

One thing I've noticed over the years since I've been shooting .40's, however, is that the more I work with my .40's, I not only do better with them, but I do better with my 9's, as well.

A case in point is my 4040PD. It's essentially a 3913 made using a Scandium aluminum frame (for greater strength than the standard aluminum alloy), but chambered in .40 S&W.

When I first bought it several years ago I felt it had significantly more recoil than my 3913, even when shooting +P+ loads (115gr & 127gr) in my 3913. That made sense to me at the time, as I'd also felt my 4013TSW had more felt recoil than my issued 6906 (used with 127gr +P+ duty loads). I sort of sidelined it in my safe, shooting my other .40's.

Now, just the other day I decided to pull it from the safe and do some work with it while working a range session. I immediately noticed two things during the first couple of mag loads while doing a qual course-of-fire "cold" (no "warm up" after not having fired the gun for a few years).

The gun exhibited excellent accuracy & controllability from the very first DA shot ... and the felt recoil just didn't seem as significantly greater than that of my 3913 (when I was recently using it with some +P & +P+ loads) as it did several years ago. Not like I remembered. Go figure.

Something's changed in the last few years, and it probably wasn't the gun or the ammo.

I guess the thing is that I can't presume to provide a definitive "answer" for anyone other than myself, and even that seems to be a bit variable over time, at least to some degree.

If you have the opportunity to participate in a local IDPA event, consider running through one with guns in both calibers and seeing what you think about them in circumstances involving other than slow-fire target shooting from a static firing line or bench position.

Just my thoughts.
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Old 02-19-2012, 15:47   #42
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That's my personal opinion biased on my experience. I don't carry any of those myself. I keep a Glock 29SF with 165g 10mm 1400 fps hollow points with me. you know, the way a .40 was meant to be.


Kamikaze, in my opinion, you hit the nail on the head . The 10mm is a .40 caliber magnum. And if I want a large bullet with a lower velocity I'll use a .45. As I said before, just my two cents.
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:41   #43
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The 33 is superior to both. That is what my wife carries. Recoil is no different than a 9mm+p and the muzzle energy is way higher. I got her a .40 barrel for it for Valentines day and couldn't believe how much harder it was to shoot than the .357sig. You can buy .357sig for almost the same price as .40. I feel very comfortable with her carrying that pistol.
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Old 02-20-2012, 13:15   #44
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I am leaning towards the G26, but am concerned that the 9mm and short barrel = less stopping power, so the G27 might be a better choice.

Where can I find ballistics comparing the G26 & G27 vs. normal barrel lengths?
Every gun is different. Some have much faster barrels than others, so you will frequently see shorter barreled guns actually out-doing longer barreled ones, the difference between the 26/27 and the next size up is only a half inch. Different lots of ammo will be slightly different as well. The 30 feet per second thing is a pretty good general estimate.

Energy numbers are useless, these are service-caliber pistols, not varmint rifles. A well designed bullet will easily outperform a poorly designed bullet loaded hotter. The difference between 9mm and .40 is basically invisible with current loads, it's nothing like the difference between 5.56 and .308. When the .40 was introduced, handgun bullet design was basically still in the toddler phase of its life. All we really knew was that light and fast bullets expanded ok when you made a hole in their nose, but didn't penetrate well at all, and heavyweight bullets could be unreliable expanders if they just had a hole stuck in their nose.

.40 worked particularly well because it has enough mass and momentum to penetrate well almost regardless of how fragile the bullet is, unless you load it with 135s, and it had enough space to put a pretty large cavity in the nose, which combined with it's fairly high standard velocities allowed it to work pretty well even with the older generic JHP designs even in heavyweight configurations.

It also was developed right in the middle of a major period of improvement for JHP designs, so there weren't a whole lot of truly old-tech JHPs ever introduced in .40.

There has been a ton of improvements to handgun bullet design in the last twenty-odd years, the JHPs of today don't need to be driven as fast as possible to be super reliable and consistent performers, lightweight bullets offer almost no benefits compared to heavyweights now, and velocity and energy are pretty much meaningless as long as you aren't shooting something that's been loaded well below the caliber's potential.

"Power" of a cartridge doesn't really have any bearing on terminal effectiveness when you're talking about handgun bullets, and it's pretty flexible anyway. Bullet design directly influences effectiveness. Energy is even more meaningless.
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Old 02-20-2012, 13:50   #45
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you keep telling yourself that....the last thing i need is a 357 sig round going through the bad guy and into a bystander, or leaving my house and going into the neighbors house....

btw, how can you say recoil is the same as 9mm, when its a 9mm bullet in a cased down 40 cal shell...
For the first paragraph, you know that higher velocity pistol rounds tend to penetrate less than lower velocity ones right? Higher velocity aids expansion, which increases drag and reduces sectional density, both of which greatly affect penetration. High mass and momentum increase penetration, velocity also increases it if all other variables stay the same, but with expanding bullets other forces and dynamics more than overrule the penetration increase gained from a higher velocity.

For the second, I hear you. I actually recently was in a thread where the consensus was that because 9mm +P+ and .357 Sig have the same chamber pressures, they are ballistically identical. That's clearly not true, the .357 has 50% greater case capacity, and chamber pressure is not the only thing going on in internal ballistics, not even close.

Quote:
Fact is, it's also slower than a 9mm and smaller than a .45 I guess for me personally, it filled a niche that didn't need filled. And I figure that if I had to shoot anyone center mass, they will not be able to notice the difference between the 45, 40 or 9mm. And I do prefer the recoil of the 9 or .45 over the .40. and as much ammo that I shoot, it's saves me quite a bit of money. Just an old farts two cents.
It's not slower than 9mm if you are comparing similar bullet weights. I don't mean a 124 grain .40, I mean a bullet with a similar sectional density. I think the 155 .40 is about the same as a 124 grain 9mm, and the 155 at 1200 feet per second is an absolutely typical load. In 124, a lot of loads are 1150 feet per second, the 124+P that's doing so well for the NYPD and others tends to be loaded to 1200 FPS or in Speer's case just slightly above that. 147-180, both bullets tend to be loaded to 1000 FPS, sometimes they get loaded a little slower, sometimes a little faster, but 1000 is a pretty typical goal.

So the 9mm and .40, when comparing defense/duty-type loads with equivalent bullet weights, travel pretty much exactly the same speeds. Terminally the .40 behaves like an oversized 9mm. It uses similar sectional densities at similar speeds, but with more mass and diameter. It's not free, it does have higher recoil and a little less magazine capacity in the same platforms, but it does bring something to the table.

I agree completely that when used with appropriate ammunition, there's no practical difference between the service caliber handguns.


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And if I want a large bullet with a lower velocity I'll use a .45. As I said before, just my two cents.
.40 isn't necessarily lower velocity, unless you load it that way intentionally.
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Old 02-20-2012, 13:56   #46
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Fastbolt's post is the best one yet I think. Lots of great information in there.
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