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Old 02-07-2012, 13:19   #1
YtownGlock
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Failure to Aid a Law Enforcement Officer

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2921.23

ORC 2921.23 Failure to aid a law enforcement officer.
(A) No person shall negligently fail or refuse to aid a law enforcement officer, when called upon for assistance in preventing or halting the commission of an offense, or in apprehending or detaining an offender, when such aid can be given without a substantial risk of physical harm to the person giving it.

(B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of failure to aid a law enforcement officer, a minor misdemeanor.

Effective Date: 01-01-1974

Okay. So I went through the Ohio Peace Officer Training Academy just this past Fall and when we were covering the ORC and we came upon this, I in all my wisdom, presented a far fetched (but possible) scenario to our instructor and rest of my fellow cadets where all but one agreed with me and I was wondering if you LEOs on here would agree with me as well.

Scenario: Law Abiding Citizen with a CCW is on an afternoon jog while not to far away from him a traffic stop is being performed. Two officers exit the squad car and approach the vehicle. The driver opens fire through the rear window wounding both officers. As this occurs, the LAC takes cover behind a tree and watches as the gunman exits the vehicle and walks towards the officers who are crawling back to their squad car while screaming on the radio for help. LAC has two options:
A. Do nothing and watch as some dbag executes two officers in broad daylight.

OR

B. Approach the gunman from behind, draw, and fire. Saving the lives of the two officers.

I told my class and my instructor that if I was that LAC I would go with option B. While the majority agreed with me, one guy did not.

(For those of you who are just seeing this, I edited out the part about the dissenter being a "Felon" to avoid any further grief as you will discover when you read some replies I got)

So, for you LEOs out there, what do you think about a LAC with a CCW coming to you or your fellow officers aid to save their life?

Last edited by YtownGlock; 02-07-2012 at 23:42..
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Old 02-07-2012, 13:32   #2
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Originally Posted by YtownGlock View Post
one guy (who just so happened to have 3 felonies on his record and have multiple gang affiliations disagreed with me and flipped out saying I can't do that. Don't ask me how the heck he made it into the academy, I have no idea how he got passed the background check process).
?
Are you claiming that this guy, who is a felon thrice over is a cop in Ohio? I dont buy it.

As to your question...are you having "doubts" because the "felon" was the dissenter?

Rendering "aid" is just that. Aid can rise to the level of the circumstances.

(FYI..I dont know anything about Academies in Ohio...I know at mine, playing too much of the "what if" game tended to get us PT)
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Last edited by Rabbi; 02-07-2012 at 13:34..
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Old 02-07-2012, 13:35   #3
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To answer your question in the scenario you present, the citizen has no legal obligation to intervene. The LEOs have not asked him to assist, and even if they did, it's doubtful he could be legally compelled to act with a suspect running around shooting at him.
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Old 02-07-2012, 13:39   #4
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Are you claiming that this guy, who is a felon thrice over is a cop in Ohio? I dont buy it.

As to your question...are you having "doubts" because the "felon" was the dissenter?

Rendering "aid" is just that. Aid can rise to the level of the circumstances.

(FYI..I dont know anything about Academies in Ohio...I know at mine, playing too much of the "what if" game tended to get us PT)
The guy who is the felon did not complete the academy due to an "knee injury", every PT day he gave some bs excuse not to participate because his "injury" prevented him from doing some of the exercises.

I don't have doubts because the felon was the dissenter. I was just asking LEOs, such as yourself, your/their opinion of a civilian coming to aid in a deadly force situation.

We played a lot of the "What if" game in my class only because we wanted to know what we could/should do or not do in certain situations. As for the situation I presented in class, it was just a spur of the moment thing that popped into my head.

We only got punished with PT if during DT we goofed off, said "I'm dead", failed to be verbal while doing tactical boxing and delivering blows and strikes to subdue an assailant, etc.

Last edited by YtownGlock; 02-07-2012 at 13:39..
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Old 02-07-2012, 13:42   #5
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The guy who is the felon did not complete the academy due to an "knee injury", every PT day he gave some bs excuse not to participate because his "injury" prevented him from doing some of the exercises.

I don't have doubts because the felon was the dissenter. I was just asking LEOs, such as yourself, your/their opinion of a civilian coming to aid in a deadly force situation.

We played a lot of the "What if" game in my class only because we wanted to know what we could/should do or not do in certain situations. As for the situation I presented in class, it was just a spur of the moment thing that popped into my head.

We only got punished with PT if during DT we goofed off, said "I'm dead", failed to be verbal while doing tactical boxing and delivering blows and strikes to subdue an assailant, etc.


But you knew the guy was a felon...and YOU did not report it?
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Old 02-07-2012, 13:42   #6
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If I'm getting killed, I would take it as a favor if you whacked the fool who was doing it. I'm willing to bet that not only would you NOT be prosecuted, but that you wouldn't have to buy your own beer for quite awhile. As for the felon in your class...

(And BTW, AZ has nearly an identical statute.)
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Old 02-07-2012, 13:44   #7
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Originally Posted by MeefZah View Post
To answer your question in the scenario you present, the citizen has no legal obligation to intervene. The LEOs have not asked him to assist, and even if they did, it's doubtful he could be legally compelled to act with a suspect running around shooting at him.
I agree with this. Of course, I am not 100% sure what the question is.

Are you (OP) asking if this person has a "duty" to render aid, or would be justified in rendering aid?

I would say they have no legal duty. I would say that given the strict confines of the "what if" they would be justified in rendering aid.
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

"Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master." - Sallust
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Old 02-07-2012, 13:44   #8
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But you knew the guy was a felon...and YOU did not report it?
THE ACADEMY ADMINISTRATORS KNEW HE WAS A FELON! When we were learning about NCIC, LEADS, etc. halfway through the academy, he offered to have his background check done in class and everything popped up.

CORRECTION: I do not know if he was ever actually a CONVICTED "Felon". He did brag about how he did time, but never talked about how much or where.

We all knew from the second week he was a felon (based just on how he acted and talked in class). He got some paperwork from Ohio BCI and DOJ giving him permission to take the academy because one of his felonies got expunged, the other dismissed, and Idk about the 3rd.

All three were CCW violations I believe

Last edited by YtownGlock; 02-07-2012 at 23:44..
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Old 02-07-2012, 13:47   #9
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Whacker alert is code orange..

John has a long mustashe.

The chair is against the wall.
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Old 02-07-2012, 13:48   #10
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I already know it would be justified for the Citizen to act even if not being asked to do so and I already know that he/she couldnt be compelled legally to do so in that circumstance.

I was just asking for thoughts and opinions on the subject. Thanks for yours
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Old 02-07-2012, 13:48   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YtownGlock View Post
THE ACADEMY ADMINISTRATORS KNEW HE WAS A FELON! When we were learning about NCIC, LEADS, etc. halfway through the academy, he offered to have his background check done in class and everything popped up.

We all knew from the second week he was a felon (based just on how he acted and talked in class). He got some paperwork from Ohio BCI and DOJ giving him permission to take the academy because one of his felonies got expunged, the other dismissed, and Idk about the 3rd.

All three were CCW violations I believe
I dont think you know what a "felon" is.

As a LEO (academy attendee?) you should have a handle on that. I am not trying to be a prick, even though that is the result. If you are going to tell a story....
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

"Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master." - Sallust
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Old 02-07-2012, 13:49   #12
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Define

FELON
is he a Bonafide CONVICTED FELON ,,

Or did he have a felony Arrest record with no disposition....


HUGE difference.
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Old 02-07-2012, 13:49   #13
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Whacker alert is code orange..

John has a long mustashe.

The chair is against the wall.
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In the world to come, each of us will be called to account for all the good things G-d put on earth which we refused to enjoy. ~ The Babylonian Talmud

Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

"Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master." - Sallust
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Old 02-07-2012, 13:50   #14
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Originally Posted by YtownGlock View Post
THE ACADEMY ADMINISTRATORS KNEW HE WAS A FELON! When we were learning about NCIC, LEADS, etc. halfway through the academy, he offered to have his background check done in class and everything popped up.

We all knew from the second week he was a felon (based just on how he acted and talked in class). He got some paperwork from Ohio BCI and DOJ giving him permission to take the academy because one of his felonies got expunged, the other dismissed, and Idk about the 3rd.

All three were CCW violations I believe
Well that's just wonderful.

So he was once a convicted felon but then got them counted down? That's possible. In Indiana certain felonies can be reduced to misdemeanors if you file a motion in the sentencing court beg the judge (or flash your thighs if you are an attractive female).

Believe it or not, a few have slipped thru the cracks this way in Indiana. They usually don't' last too long, but leave a trail of destruction in their path....

As for your scenario....that's a decision the person (in this case, a CCW'er) will have to make based on the exact circumstances presented to them. We've all heard stories of shotgun-wielding civilians who save the lives of downed cops (some true and some made-up). I'd sure appreciate it if someone came to my aid (cop or not, hell, convicted felon or not) if I was truly fighting for my life but I don't expect it to happen, especially this day and age.

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Old 02-07-2012, 13:50   #15
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I dont think you know what a "felon" is.

As a LEO (academy attendee?) you should have a handle on that. I am not trying to be a prick, even though that is the result. If you are going to tell a story....
You know what I mean (CORRECTION: I should have thought it through a little bit more before I said that). Would it have been better put if I said he used to be a criminal and has now decided to pursue a career in LE even though he committed a few felonies in his past? lol

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Old 02-07-2012, 13:52   #16
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You know what I mean. Would it have been better put if I said he used to be a criminal and has now decided to pursue a career in LE even though he committed a few felonies in his past? lol
If I am on a stop and you tell me "he is a felon"...that means something. YOU better know what it means as well.
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In the world to come, each of us will be called to account for all the good things G-d put on earth which we refused to enjoy. ~ The Babylonian Talmud

Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

"Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master." - Sallust

Last edited by Rabbi; 02-07-2012 at 13:53..
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Old 02-07-2012, 13:53   #17
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Define

FELON
is he a Bonafide CONVICTED FELON ,,

Or did he have a felony Arrest record with no disposition....


HUGE difference.
Ok, so not the best term to use. I admit that, I do know the difference I just typed what came to my mind first without thinking it through.

I honestly can't remember if he ever got convicted or not. He had quite a few misdemeanors under his belt too.
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Old 02-07-2012, 13:56   #18
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If I am on a stop and you tell me "he is a felon"...that means something. YOU better know what it means as well.
And just for the record, i am going through the ENTIRE academy all over again this coming Fall. I failed to meet the Run requirements of the fitness exam. I was born with bilateral club feet deformity so running is an issue with me, I'm getting better though.

I think a second run through the academy will help fine tune my knowledge a bit better on certain terms.
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Old 02-07-2012, 13:57   #19
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FYI these definitions are tricky AND MEAN something

I did background investigations while going through the GA part time acadenmy , you can be arrested for a felony, say a girl cries rape, they arrest you.
But she was drunk she recants you are never formally charged, running your CH will show you were arrested for rape, but you are not a felon....
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Old 02-07-2012, 14:00   #20
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FYI these definitions are tricky AND MEAN something
Yeah, I know. It was a pain going through the ORC
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