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Old 01-15-2012, 18:14   #51
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If they're similar bullets as far as expansion and consistency go, I'd definitely go with a heavy for caliber bullet over a lighter one. most of the old reasons to use a lighter bullet in a service pistol caliber don't really exist anymore, unless the bullet happens to date back to the bad old days of JHP design when it took a lightweight to get any meaningful expansion.
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Old 01-21-2012, 06:55   #52
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Jello and manufacturer tests are just that -- "tests". Shooting a block of goo and some drywall are far different than actually using the software for real.

Pretty much what everybody has said already - 124+P Gold Dot, 127 +P+ Winchester. The old loads that worked 25-30 years ago still work today - 115gr 9BPLE +P+, 115/125gr CorBon JHP +P.

Still see no reason to go with a 147gr 9mm that moves at 900fps, unless you want a 15-round .38 Special. There's a reason the .357 Magnum was introduced and works better than a .38, and why you rarely hear of any disappointment with a .357SIG. Smaller bores need speed.
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Old 01-21-2012, 09:16   #53
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Originally Posted by AWESOMO 4000 View Post
Jello and manufacturer tests are just that -- "tests". Shooting a block of goo and some drywall are far different than actually using the software for real.

Pretty much what everybody has said already - 124+P Gold Dot, 127 +P+ Winchester. The old loads that worked 25-30 years ago still work today - 115gr 9BPLE +P+, 115/125gr CorBon JHP +P.

Still see no reason to go with a 147gr 9mm that moves at 900fps, unless you want a 15-round .38 Special. There's a reason the .357 Magnum was introduced and works better than a .38, and why you rarely hear of any disappointment with a .357SIG. Smaller bores need speed.
There are 147-grain loads that perform very well. The 147-grain Federal HST performs better than the 124 +p HST and very similar to the Gold Dot 124 +p.
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Old 01-21-2012, 15:42   #54
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Originally Posted by LawScholar View Post
There are 147-grain loads that perform very well. The 147-grain Federal HST performs better than the 124 +p HST and very similar to the Gold Dot 124 +p.
Are you talking about environmentally controlled labratory gel tests or you talking street results from real shootings involving real human beings?
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Old 01-21-2012, 16:11   #55
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Are you talking about environmentally controlled labratory gel tests or you talking street results from real shootings involving real human beings?
Few places have the frequency of police shootings like SoCal. I know people like to sat things like "the Corbon round has good street cred", but does anyone know of an acutal police department that issues Corbon ammo?

LAPD, LASO, SDPD and most of the surrounding areas comprise tens of thousands of cops, in an area where police shootings are almost routine (unlike most PD's) and those places use 147's.

I always get a kick out of "street results" compiled from places where they almost never have shootings. I worked in the most densley populated part of the country in a large county. The number of times a cop's bullet hit a badguy in a given year could be counted on two hands. I could say things like "The Newark PD has had good results with their ammo" and it would be meaningless.
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Old 01-21-2012, 16:13   #56
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The 147-grain Federal HST performs better than the 124 +p HST and very similar to the Gold Dot 124 +p.
My whole world is collapsing! Tell me it isn't so!

At this very moment I have the 124-grain Federal HST +P ammo in my sub-compact 9mm and am suffering incredible insecurity that it may not actually prevent a potentially deadly attack.

I gave up my 115-grain Federal +P+ 9BPLE in favor of the 135-grain Federal 135-grain Tactical Bonded +P when cold weather hit my area, then for some unexplained reason I thought perhaps expansion might be the trump card in CCW ammo and loaded the HST +P.

Now I'm psychologically crushed under the burden of not knowing the right round to carry in my chosen weapon. And to top it off, I've got a few hundred dollars invested in premium JHP self-defense rounds that at one time or another led me to erroneously believe would carry the day against criminal aggressors.

What's a guy/gal to do?
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Old 01-21-2012, 16:25   #57
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Originally Posted by WiskyT View Post
LAPD, LASO, SDPD and most of the surrounding areas comprise tens of thousands of cops, in an area where police shootings are almost routine (unlike most PD's) and those places use 147's.
I understand that the New York City Police Department is the largest urban police force in America and they are completely satisfied with the proven street results of Speer 124-grain Gold Dot +P JHP.

My own take is if the honchos in charge are satisfied with the results then that's their call. I'm really more interested in the rank-and-file opinion and documented street results that can be verified. NYC likes the Speer +P; you say LA likes 147-grain ammo. I don't have any qualms about that.

That's why the experts' opinions I follow mean something. Those opinions are based upon the real observations and testimony of beat cops. Right now the preponderance of the experts I follow say the 124- and 127-grain +P and +P+ JHP self-defense ammos are the best choice in 9mm.
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Old 01-21-2012, 16:48   #58
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Originally Posted by WiskyT View Post
Few places have the frequency of police shootings like SoCal. I know people like to sat things like "the Corbon round has good street cred", but does anyone know of an acutal police department that issues Corbon ammo?

LAPD, LASO, SDPD and most of the surrounding areas comprise tens of thousands of cops, in an area where police shootings are almost routine (unlike most PD's) and those places use 147's.

I always get a kick out of "street results" compiled from places where they almost never have shootings. I worked in the most densley populated part of the country in a large county. The number of times a cop's bullet hit a badguy in a given year could be counted on two hands. I could say things like "The Newark PD has had good results with their ammo" and it would be meaningless.
We have a local department that averages 7+ OIS per year. They've been using, coincidentally, 147gr Ranger Talon.
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Old 01-21-2012, 16:53   #59
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Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
I understand that the New York City Police Department is the largest urban police force in America and they are completely satisfied with the proven street results of Speer 124-grain Gold Dot +P JHP.

My own take is if the honchos in charge are satisfied with the results then that's their call. I'm really more interested in the rank-and-file opinion and documented street results that can be verified. NYC likes the Speer +P; you say LA likes 147-grain ammo. I don't have any qualms about that.

That's why the experts' opinions I follow mean something. Those opinions are based upon the real observations and testimony of beat cops. Right now the preponderance of the experts I follow say the 124- and 127-grain +P and +P+ JHP self-defense ammos are the best choice in 9mm.
The beat cops have nothing to make a comparison to. If they are issued 124+P Gold Dots, what do they know about 147's? Their prior ammo to the 124GD+P was the 38 with a solid lead bullet. Also, as big as NYPD is, they have very few shootings. I would be interested to see some data from them, since even with few shootings, with lots of cops over a several year period, you could have a serious chunk of data to work with.

Street results just don't offer any usefull info. People get shot in the hip and fall like a house of cards. Others get center punched, run away, and don't even show up at the hospital. I know a guy who shot a BG in the center of the back as he was running away with a 180 Ranger SXT. He told me it didn't even slow the BG down, he ran off and they never found him. What do you do with an anectdote like that? I know he was telling me the truth, so what do you do, not use a 40 cal? I know a cop shot in the gut with 9mm ball, one shot. He dropped right where he was standing, his partner took two under his vest from the same BG and emptied his 9mm into the BG killing him. Both cops were close to death from infection for a couple of weeks. One shot of 9mm ball was a one shot stop, and two shots of the same ammo, in the same general area, failed to stop. What do you make of that?

Here is my $0.02, and that's about all it is worth. Bullets need to penetrate. Expansion is better than non-expansion. In service style guns, you can have both with most any of the modern bullets out there. The 124's expand and penetrate, and so do the 147's. Heavier bullets go slower, but they are designed to expand at lower velocities. They have bigger cavities and often deeper skiving. 124's are designed to penetrate thanks to smaller cavities and more shallow skiving.

I wouldn't use an old style, ultra light, ultra fast bullet though. IMO, they simply don't go deep enough. An old style bullet, like the Sierra Power Jacket used by Corbon, or the standard JHP's from the bigger makers, at a lower speed might actually work well. It's hard to say since they don't get tested in jello. Maybe a fragile bullet, driven slow enough, would acutally work well and be a good round for recoil sensative shooters?

What I don't think will work well, again this is based simply on nothing other than my own uneducated guess, is a modern, sturdy HP like a GS, GD, T, etc driven too slowly. A 124 GD desigend to work at 1150 and only doing 1000, probably is going to act like ball ammo. That's what 124GDHP's do out of my LC9 and that's why I don't carry them. I'd put them in my G17 if I carried it though. The Ranger T's, and other 147's I've shot through my LC9 are doing 950 which is exactly what they are supposed to be doing, so I carry them.
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Old 01-21-2012, 17:07   #60
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Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
Are you talking about environmentally controlled labratory gel tests or you talking street results from real shootings involving real human beings?
With the way you rip on testing, I thought you might find this: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler...hester_9mm.pdf
interesting.
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