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Old 01-15-2012, 17:41   #1
Usmcfox
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10mm factory self defense ammunition

Well I recently had my eyes opened to the legal repercussions of carrying hand loads for ad any suggestions on factory self defense ammunition. I love my gold dots but can't find a manufacturer that uses them.
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Old 01-15-2012, 17:53   #2
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i have several box's of double tap i got in 2008 for daily carry i have been working my way through. i believe they have 180 gr gold dots in them. i think double tap changed the offerings, and recall seeing posts of ordering double tap ammo that was supposed to have gold dots but did not.

but i am looking for a new brand when what i have runs out.
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Old 01-15-2012, 17:57   #3
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http://www.underwoodammo.com/10mmauto.aspx

never used 'em, but they geet good reviews.

From what I understand, the 165gr GD's hold up better in 10mm than the 180's
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Old 01-15-2012, 17:59   #4
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Can you elaborate on the legal repercussions of carrying hand loads for self defense?
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Old 01-15-2012, 18:17   #5
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Well, from what I've heard lawyers can persuade the jury to believe you're out looking for a fight if you load your own ammo I don't get it but in the event that hopefully/probably never, happens I don't want to take the chance.
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Old 01-15-2012, 20:03   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Usmcfox View Post
Well, from what I've heard lawyers can persuade the jury to believe you're out looking for a fight if you load your own ammo I don't get it but in the event that hopefully/probably never, happens I don't want to take the chance.
I think it's horse ***** that a DA would do that, but I carry factory ammo because of that, too.

I carry Hornady 165 Critical Defense because:

1. I trust what Hornady says on the box is the actual speed of the ammo I am shooting. It has also been proven by regular folks.

2. I believe their claims that the Critical Defense line of ammo does what they say it does. They really wanted to make a great SD bullet.

3. I have ran a few rounds from Hornady through a washing machine. Full cycle. Still shot just fine. I am sure a lot of ammo companies, if not all, can say that their ammo is waterproof and would do that too, but I know Hornady does.

4. Just like you stated above, a DA could drum up some crap about "looking for a fight" or other such nonsense and I would rather have dependable factory ammo on hand.

I love the 10mm for it's power, and I hand load 180gr XTP up and over 1250 fps, which isn't nuclear, but still pretty warm. Those are for shooting at the range and for woods defense. My Critical Defense is for home. BTW my wife carry's Critical defense in her 9mm for the exact same reasons.
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Old 01-16-2012, 00:02   #7
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http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/

basically he was out hiking ( with a g20 ) and a crazy homeless guys dogs started acting aggressive towards him. i think he may have fired a warning shot. but the owner got pissed and yelled at fish. started charging fish and got shot dead.

some arguments were made that since he was carrying a 10mm and hp bullets he was out looking to kill somebody.
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Old 01-16-2012, 00:37   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic Punk View Post
i have several box's of double tap i got in 2008 for daily carry i have been working my way through. i believe they have 180 gr gold dots in them. i think double tap changed the offerings, and recall seeing posts of ordering double tap ammo that was supposed to have gold dots but did not.

but i am looking for a new brand when what i have runs out.
I bought DT 180gr. bonded defence several years ago, is that what you have? The velocity on the box is 1305fps but I crono'd them at 1180fps. I bought the chronograph after I heard so much about DT false velocity claims on this form.I have always wanted to know what bullet it is.
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Old 01-16-2012, 00:50   #9
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dug out the box.

180gr. Speer Gold Dot JHP
1305fps. / 4.6" bbl.
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Old 01-16-2012, 01:04   #10
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I hear all of that stuff and I just don't know. Maybe they could convince a jury maybe not.
If I have been looking for a fight for the last 30 years of handloading then I guess maybe they might have a point. But I have not shot anyone yet.
You cannot trust a mfg. to give you what you think you are paying for.
I actually have magazines marked SD and loaded with factory ammo instead of handloads and I am not proud of myself for it.
I hate playing into their hands.... rant over
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Old 01-16-2012, 07:51   #11
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I'm carrying my 29 SF with factory Hornady 155 gr. XTP.

Out of my 29, the Hornady factory ammo slightly exceeds the advertised velocity on the box.
Average for 5 shots: 1,279 fps
Average for another 5 shots: 1,278 fps
Velocity on box: 1,265 fps

With 1,278 fps / 562# KE the Hornady 155 XTP should be "adequate" for SD.

I like that I can get the same bullets for handloading. I can (did) match the factory ammunitions' velocity while staying well under the published max using Blue Dot.
My handloads were constructed using new brass and not only did I use a single stage press, I visually inspected each powder charge before seating bullet; I monitored the OAL like it was an obsessive competition.
I can practice with the same load I carry, only the handloads cost me about $23 for 50 rounds (all new components).

I would not have any reservation about using my 10mm handloads for SD based on quality or reliability; the pistol has already shot 250 rounds of my handloads vs about 50 of the factory loads.
I'm not intending to carry the handloads since I have factory ammo available; however, if I ever did carry the handloads for whatever reason, I think the argument could be made that since I matched the factory velocity I was justified carrying the handloads because they had already proven reliable in my pistol and quality was a known and controlled variable.
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Old 01-16-2012, 10:04   #12
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I've got to get me some of Underwoods 165 gr. Gold Dots but until I do it's Winchester Silvertips for me.

Where I live, there is no self defense law or castle doctrine. Therefore if I use deadly force to stop an attacker, I assume I will be arrested. I will get my day in court but it will also cost me my life savings. However, the old saying judged by 12 rather than carried by 6 has true meaning here.

Then, regardless whether I'm found guilty of homicide or guilty of justifiable homicide, I'll be sued by the suspects family for wrongful death. Pleasant picture I'm painting here isn't it? Well, it's the truth.

I pray I never have to pull the trigger. I'm prepared if I would have to, but I pray I never do.
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Old 01-16-2012, 12:53   #13
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You are more likely to win the lotto than you are shoot someone with your pistol in a self defense situation and then have the DA claim you're dirty harry with your super-power-psycho 10 mil load.

Seriously, this scarey scared stuff needs to stop.

America isn't made greater by a bunch of scared sissies packing heat everywhere they go because they are scared of the bogeyman.

Wear your seat belt - this is the best defense you have against the most dangerous threat there is in this entire country.

You can take that to the bank.
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Old 01-16-2012, 14:38   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Usmcfox View Post
Well, from what I've heard lawyers can persuade the jury to believe you're out looking for a fight if you load your own ammo I don't get it but in the event that hopefully/probably never, happens I don't want to take the chance.
Not to get this thread too off track, but that is not the issue with home-brewed defense ammo. At least there does not appear to be a case history of that sort - so far.

There is a court case (I don't have it in front of me) that is in play though. It has to do with the admissability of exemplar (example) rounds of ammunition to support your defense.

Let's say that you were being attacked and that the attacker was, say, 5 feet away from you when you pulled the trigger. A legitimate SD situation. The attacker would likely have a pattern of gun shot residue (GSR) from your gunblast. To support your story, the defense could acquire exemplar (example) rounds from the factory and run ballistics. The GSR patterning of the examplar could be used to support your story that the attacker was at the range that you said it was. In other words, your claims of an attacker being 5 feet away would be substantiated by GSR.

Here is the rub. If it is a handloaded round, the shooter's ammunition would likely not be admissable in court. The legal issue, as has been determined in a prior court case, is that example rounds of handloaded ammo would not be admissable as exemplar rounds. Therefore, a key element of one's defense would not be available.

That being said, I still carry a handloaded 165 gr Gold Dot. I have not yet found factory ammo that I am confident with. The Underwood offering looks promising though.

Last edited by Taterhead; 01-16-2012 at 14:40..
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Old 01-16-2012, 17:55   #15
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Well I guess since we have super warriors Like kegs out there I don't even need to carry a firearm. We might as well get rid of the armed forces too and just have him and his super awesomeness rule over all. On a serious note not what I asked. All I asked for was advice on good factory sd loads. You contributed nothing, and made yourself look like a fool.
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Old 01-16-2012, 22:16   #16
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This is a little bit off topic, but since it was brought up....

You have a choice whether you talk to the cops after a SD shooting or not. You also have a choice in what you say and how you say it. Never forget that "anything you say can and will be used against you in court." That does not work well for you, but it works to great advantage for the Police and the State's Attorney should they decide to refer your case to a grand jury.

Considering that you are probably not going to be in a state of mind to say anything useful after a SD shooting, you would be best to defer the conversation to a later time, and seek legal counsel first. There are plenty of anecdotal cases of LEOs not being able to say how many shots they fired (thought 2 or 3, but unloaded a 15 rd mag), so you risk giving the prosecution evidence against you. What can you gain? Well, if the law enforcement agency is not gun-hating, CCW-hating, looking to ruin you, they may let you go if your story matches the evidence. Maybe. But you have a whole lot to lose if they decide to prosecute you. You will be providing them with the evidence they need to make a case against you.

What you shouldn't say after a SD shooting, is anything firearm knowledgeable. Don't give them anything that "can and will be used against you in a court of law." For example, if asked what kind of ammo you used, the right answer is "hollow points"...not... "155gr Hornady Critical Defense XTP's". If they press you for the brand of ammo (assuming you are using handloads here), evade. "I said hollow points. Isn't that what your agency uses? Isn't that what the state highway patrol uses?" If they continue to press you, tell them it's irrelevant. Answer a question with a question, and refuse to make their case for them. Let them figure out what kind of ammo you have. Maybe they won't want to pay to have a forensics lab disassemble and examine it, and just let them assume you don't know anything about guns or handloading. I'm not saying lie, don't ever lie, just don't give them information to prosecute you with. If they figure it out, fine. You can work with your lawyer on your defense. The less you say the better. Just don't volunteer any information that isn't absolutely relevant or necessary, because it can and will be used against you.
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Old 01-16-2012, 22:36   #17
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Just carry a Glock 20 or Glock 29, shoot whatever ammo you need to protect your life or the life of a loved one, plus, a shovel and some trash bags.

I'm sorry, did I just say that out loud?
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Old 01-16-2012, 23:27   #18
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I can't believe some of the stuff written here. I live in one of the most liberal GD states I'm the union. I'm an active duty LE officer patrolling crappy towns daily. Even in this bastion of stupidity, I've NEVER come across, heard of, read about or seen a case where an investigating officer asks what kind of hollow points you're using. Most LE out there doesn't know that much about guns. Their job is to investigate your shooting, and from experience, I'll tell you that 99.8% of the time the home owner is presumed to be the victim by the officers as they arrive on scene. Don't give them anything to use against you. you don't have to tell the entire story, but withholding info and acting like a belligerent punk is a GREAT way to turn sympathetic officers into adversaries.

I'm sure Mas Ayoob has better, more scientific data than I do. His reason for carrying only factory ammo for SD are valid. It's not that it makes you look like you're looking for a fight. You can do that with a Daisy BB gun. It's the "known quantity" factor mentioned above and the fact that an unscrupulous lawyer (sometimes even a DA) can make you LOOK like you build your own hot, nuclear, JDAM daisy cutter poison tipped death rounds. They'll ask you on the stand why factory stuff is good enough for your local police, but not for YOU big guy. That's all there is to it. I think we're geeking out here, worrying about stuff that almost never happens. I'll side with Kegs on this one. let's not be so GD afraid of cops and DAs. Almost every one I've come across in a lot of years has been a straight shooter. Remember, DAs are elected, and filing bogus cases against citizens legally protecting themselves isn't a wise career move. Seacrest out.
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Old 01-17-2012, 00:27   #19
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Quote:
Don't give them anything to use against you. you don't have to tell the entire story, but withholding info and acting like a belligerent punk is a GREAT way to turn sympathetic officers into adversaries.
You assume that they are sympathetic to your case, and you're probably right in most circumstances. However, CCW is very unpopular in major cities and especially in blue states, and the political (read liberal) climate isn't necessarily in the favor of the SD shooter. If you don't believe me, check out Huff Post when some gun related topic comes up. I would describe those people as rabid haters, and they vote, too. There are DA's out there that look at prosecuting a SD shooting into a murder conviction as THE political stepping stone for their careers.

Research the Harold Fish case that Atomic Punk posted. I would have thought Arizona was very gun friendly, but this DA had to convene 4, repeat, FOUR grand juries to get an indictment, because the first 3 no-billed it. Then, the judge suppressed most of Fish's defense, including multiple incidents where the deceased made violent raging assaults on people over his dogs. The judge also did not properly instruct the jury, and did not follow AZ law which removed the affirmative defense mandate for self defense. As a result, Harold Fish spent 3 years in prison for murder 2. An appellate court finally granted a retrial, which never happened because the first trial was a railroading miscarriage of justice. BTW, several jurors that convicted Fish mentioned in interviews that the case the DA made about the 10mm Fish used to shoot the nut case assaulting him played into their decision to convict him of murder.

Maybe the Fish case is the exception to the rule, but I'll take every advantage I can to not spend years of my life in prison. You don't have to be a belligerent punk to not answer irrelevant questions that are aimed at building a case against you. It can be done in a very professional manner as your 5th amendment rights, and if the cops are truly sympathetic to your case, they will understand why you don't want to answer certain questions. And if not, then they're probably trying to screw you.
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Old 01-17-2012, 00:49   #20
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I carry doubletap 180gr gold dots. It's loaded on the warm side, feeds well and shoots consistently through my glock. When the s**t hits the fan I want something I can trust that isnt range/ammo & don't mind paying a little more for it.
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