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Old 01-14-2012, 11:09   #76
Usmcfox
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Problem solved we went to a range/gun shop and she shot a walther ppk a Taurus CIA in 357 and a Taurus 740 slim and she liked the 740'best and at 15 feet all hit center mass. Plus since I load 10mm I have all the ingredients to make some nasty sd loads for it. Thanks for all your input.
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Old 01-14-2012, 11:13   #77
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
All of this is true, there are definitely some advantages to revolvers. But you know what? The average woman/new shooter does not care about that stuff.

Everything you listed are concers that seasoned shooters discuss in forums like this, or over a beer at the local range. New shooters, especially women, are more interested in finding what appeals to them, and as others have noted, what appeals to them is not necessarily always based on logic or facts.

We need to focus on getting more new shooters, and especially more new women shooters, onto the ranges. Forget about the minute details and circumstance specific reasons why you think a particular pistol is the right one to recommend. Most of the reasons that would cause you to recommend a pistol are of little importance to new female shooters. They have completely different ways of figuring stuff like that out, of what concerns them, from you.
The first priority in helping someone to find a carry gun is to help them find a carry gun, hopefully one that works reliably for them.

The second priority can be encouraging them to become better shooters, or active in the sport, or pro-gun voters, or whatever you feel is important.

But back to the first priority, lay out some options for them, give them some help, and let them pick. And keep helping them as long as they keep asking, until they become better them you

What guns are you laying out on the range table for the woman to choose from in her search for a small carry gun?

I'll personally put out there G26, 642, 637, PPK, LCP, PM9, EMP. Someone else will also typically add to that G19, Berreta bobcat, NAA Guardian, SIG238. And whatevercelse the other instructors bring. Let them try and decide on their own what they like and will likely carry. The revolver is included in those choices.

The instruction usually starts with the larger guns, such as S&W42 or 2206 22's, or a revolver 22, or a GP100 38, or a Berreta 92 or G17 or other such fullsize 9mm. But those aren't the type of guns likely to be concealed carried picks.

Last edited by ithaca_deerslayer; 01-14-2012 at 15:03..
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Old 01-14-2012, 11:17   #78
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Just took the time to read every post you guys are raging over nothing lol. To each his own.i personally despise taurus firearms. But she claims it's nicer than my competition ready g20. Is she wrong...no am I wrong...no it's just opinions and how you are wired and built.
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Old 01-14-2012, 11:20   #79
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Originally Posted by Usmcfox View Post
Just took the time to read every post you guys are raging over nothing lol. To each his own.i personally despise taurus firearms. But she claims it's nicer than my competition ready g20. Is she wrong...no am I wrong...no it's just opinions and how you are wired and built.
Nothing wrong with a Taurus???
Just be happy your girl likes guns and is willing to defend herself.
Sounds like everybody wins to me - LOL.

Have fun and be safe my friend.
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Old 01-14-2012, 11:57   #80
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Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post

Personally, I prefer the lighter polymer LCP that is double action only, no safety, a little smaller than the PPK, and has about the same or less recoil.
That's what I carry almost every day....LCP.

The LCP definitely has more of a "shock wave" in the recoil than the PPK/S.....and I have carried both, so I'm not just repeating what I've heard.

The recoil on the PPK/S is much easier to handle than the LCP.

The size and weight of the PPK/S is why it's just not that good an option, compared to the current market offerings.......but, if anyone chose the PPK/S for ccw use, it's still a good choice.....and, a personal choice.

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Old 01-14-2012, 13:35   #81
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The 642 is a lot smaller than the G26. But not as small as a LCP, of course. For similarity in size, the 642 should be compared to the Kahr PM9.
If you actually owned both a 642 and a G26, you would see that the difference in length is less than one-quarter of one inch. And I seem to remember than the 642 is actually taller than the G26. Most people would not consider less than 1/4" to be "a lot" smaller.

And in fact, the 642 is much, much closer in size to a G26 than it is to a PM9 (which I also own as well). Why is this? Because the J and the G26 are both wider than 1", while the PM is less than 1". Both the J and the G are longer than the PM by close to an inch, and they are both taller than the PM too.

Sounds like you need a tape measure....
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Old 01-14-2012, 13:36   #82
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Originally Posted by Usmcfox View Post
Problem solved we went to a range/gun shop and she shot a walther ppk a Taurus CIA in 357 and a Taurus 740 slim and she liked the 740'best and at 15 feet all hit center mass. Plus since I load 10mm I have all the ingredients to make some nasty sd loads for it. Thanks for all your input.
You bought a Taurus auto? Hand loading SD rounds?
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Old 01-14-2012, 14:42   #83
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You bought a Taurus auto? Hand loading SD rounds?
I'll double your and raise you a
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Old 01-14-2012, 15:14   #84
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If you actually owned both a 642 and a G26, you would see that the difference in length is less than one-quarter of one inch. And I seem to remember than the 642 is actually taller than the G26. Most people would not consider less than 1/4" to be "a lot" smaller.

And in fact, the 642 is much, much closer in size to a G26 than it is to a PM9 (which I also own as well). Why is this? Because the J and the G26 are both wider than 1", while the PM is less than 1". Both the J and the G are longer than the PM by close to an inch, and they are both taller than the PM too.

Sounds like you need a tape measure....
I own all 3, have carried all 3, and also own a ruler and a scale. The 642 is a lot smaller than the G26. There's much of the 642 that is more than 1/4" thinner than the 26.

The 642 and PM9 are similar in size and weight, but of different shape. My own opinion is that the 642 conceals better than the PM9 in IWB, but I am carrying the PM9 as I type this.

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Old 01-14-2012, 15:48   #85
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Don't forget about the Kel-Tec PF-9 for around $250 ...if saving some $ is on the to do list Hornady +P Critical Duty should be effective.
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Old 01-14-2012, 17:02   #86
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Originally Posted by Usmcfox View Post
Problem solved we went to a range/gun shop and she shot a walther ppk a Taurus CIA in 357 and a Taurus 740 slim and she liked the 740'best and at 15 feet all hit center mass. Plus since I load 10mm I have all the ingredients to make some nasty sd loads for it. Thanks for all your input.
Cool. Hope you or she can write up a review of that Taurus she is buying.
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Old 01-14-2012, 17:07   #87
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Something like the Ruger lc9 would be the natural choice.

When she said the G26 was too big, I assumed she meant the grip/width was too large.


Take a look at the new Sig Sauer 380. Much better than Ruger LC9. My neighbor just got the Sig Sauer 380 and is dumping the Ruger 380. The Ruger IMO is no
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Old 01-14-2012, 19:05   #88
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COMMENT...

Last summer, on a hot morning, I was walking on a BLM road with my Big Dog (NO, not my g-30)

I was carrying my Kel-Tec P-11, which I rarely carry, because it is not fun to practice with..but it was hot................ already.

My dog flushed a fawn, chased it, got it by the neck, and was convinced that this was breakfast.

This was about 30 yards ahead of me, so I knew I was too far away to Physically do anything in time......

I am not into killing fawns.

So I grabbed my P-11 and fired off a round into the dirt about 20' in front of me, hoping to shock my dog into releasing the fawn.

He did, but not because of shock, but because I was yelling at the top of my lungs!!!!

Afterwords, in thinking about it, I did NOT even feel the recoil from the P-11,................... which I do very much when I am plinking with it.

SO............conclusion.............get a reliable gun you feel comfy with, and practice until you get good with it.

If you ever actually need to use the gun to defend anything, any recoil/uncomfortableness/etc. is meaningless...you won't feel it in real life...

...But get something with capacity. 22's have killed a lot of people. (NOT endorsing a 22 for Pers. Prot).

You never know how many ZOMBIES might be attacking at one time................
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Old 01-14-2012, 19:25   #89
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Try a Kahr CM9 or PM9. 6+1 of 9mm in a small but controllable package.
CM9 is a great gun.
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Old 01-14-2012, 22:22   #90
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well after reading 3 pages of this, M&P15 keeps saying a snubby has too much recoil...all of the tiny, light weight autos I have shot (along with an X & new wife) have just as much recoil, if not more than a snubby...so with a light charged LSMWC in a 38 special is my vote as well....& I'm a hairdresser, so I talk to women much more than you do,( most likely)...& just another .02 cents...my X-wife & current wife, carry an air frame snubby...& yes they have plenty of other guns that I already own to choose from...but I got to buy another gun...win, win

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Old 01-14-2012, 22:23   #91
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well after reading 3 pages of this, M&P15 keeps saying a snubby has too much recoil...all of the tiny, light weight autos I have shot have just as much...
Exactly.
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Old 01-15-2012, 01:29   #92
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I bought my girl a S&W Bodyguard .38 good for at night with laser.
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Old 01-15-2012, 04:08   #93
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Exactly.
Not trying to exasperate the argument in this thread that was started for no reason but I figured I'd comment before this thread got locked.

I've owned many small semi-autos in .32,.380,9mm and 45acp. I've also owned quite a few snubs in .38spl and .357. For me, I can shoot the smaller semi-autos faster with much less felt recoil.

I guess it depends on who is behind the gun and what their individual capabilities are but I've let quite a few women shoot my snub nose revolvers and not a single one liked it over the semi-autos. The last one I took to the range was my aunt. She used to own a heavy .357 SP101 that she only shot standard (not +P) .38spl loads out of and said it had to much recoil. I have one and find .357 loads quite easy to manage. Well she sold hers and was looking for a new firearm. I had her rent a .380 PPK and although it was manageable, she still didn't care for it. I then rented her a PK-380 and she loved it. After shooting it myself, it seems to be set up for people that have a hard time racking a slide and/or are sensitive to recoil. To me, it was like shooting a heavy full size .22lr.

I'm not going to sit and take sides, but not many women (and some men for that matter) like the recoil of a lightweight snub and prefer semi-autos. Some can take the recoil but don't like the flip and slower follow-up shots. Some may even buy a snub just to test fire once and let it live in a pocket or purse the rest of it's life. This is why I always suggest to rent before buying because only the actual final owner of the gun will know what he/she likes.

Remember, whatever firearms someone chooses for carry, make sure it's a gun that will be practiced with enough on a regular basis.

These are my opinions and should be taken as just that.

Last edited by Nakanokalronin; 01-15-2012 at 04:19..
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Old 01-15-2012, 05:32   #94
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Exactly.

Nice to see someone else picked up on that as well,......
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Old 01-15-2012, 05:35   #95
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Originally Posted by Nakanokalronin View Post
.......

Remember, whatever firearms someone chooses for carry, make sure it's a gun that will be practiced with enough on a regular basis.

These are my opinions and should be taken as just that.
Darn good post! Many great points! The quote above is THE most important
information in this entire thread!
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Old 01-15-2012, 07:53   #96
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Just took the time to read every post you guys are raging over nothing lol. To each his own.i personally despise taurus firearms. But she claims it's nicer than my competition ready g20. Is she wrong...no am I wrong...no it's just opinions and how you are wired and built.
Sure they are they always do. If she likes the Taurus than that's the gun for her and it will serve her just fine.
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Old 01-15-2012, 08:11   #97
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My GF first mag from a LCP this was the first 6 rounds she shot. She shoots her 442 just as well. All this talk about a woman can not shoot a snub is total BS.
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Old 01-15-2012, 09:19   #98
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Originally Posted by Nakanokalronin View Post
Not trying to exasperate the argument in this thread that was started for no reason but I figured I'd comment before this thread got locked.

I've owned many small semi-autos in .32,.380,9mm and 45acp. I've also owned quite a few snubs in .38spl and .357. For me, I can shoot the smaller semi-autos faster with much less felt recoil.

I guess it depends on who is behind the gun and what their individual capabilities are but I've let quite a few women shoot my snub nose revolvers and not a single one liked it over the semi-autos. The last one I took to the range was my aunt.

Remember, whatever firearms someone chooses for carry, make sure it's a gun that will be practiced with enough on a regular basis.

These are my opinions and should be taken as just that.
Snipped to prevent wall of text.

While I completely agree with you in theory, I have had the opposite experience with women I have taught to shoot, or helped get better - with the sole exception of my 62 year old arthritic mother, every single one has handled a J-Frame well, both with standard ball loads and 158gr +P loads. They all also appreciated the simplicity, and the fact that they didn't have to rack a slide, which most of them found somewhat difficult. My mom now has a S&W 327PD for her night stand, and absolutely loves the thing, even with full house .357 Mag loads.

However, you are 100% correct, that each shooter (man and woman) needs to determine what works for them, and go from there.
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Old 01-15-2012, 09:36   #99
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Originally Posted by Nakanokalronin View Post

... I had her rent a .380 PPK and although it was manageable, she still didn't care for it. I then rented her a PK-380 and she loved it. After shooting it myself, it seems to be set up for people that have a hard time racking a slide and/or are sensitive to recoil. To me, it was like shooting a heavy full size .22lr.
You raise good points. Did you ever try 148gr wadcutters in the snubbie? They are soft recoiling.

Going to the PK380 was a good idea, since that is larger and heavier than an airweight snubbie, and shoots a less powerful round, thus keeping recoil down.

Last edited by ithaca_deerslayer; 01-15-2012 at 09:37..
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Old 01-15-2012, 10:11   #100
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You raise good points. Did you ever try 148gr wadcutters in the snubbie? They are soft recoiling.

Going to the PK380 was a good idea, since that is larger and heavier than an airweight snubbie, and shoots a less powerful round, thus keeping recoil down.
Well my aunt had a SP101 that is quite heavy (26oz) compared to the Walther (19.4oz) so I don't think it was the weight. The fact that the slide of a semi-auto absorbs some of the recoil is why most can shoot a semi-auto easier and more quickly while staying on target. With a revolver, all of the force is directed back into the frame. This may not be the case for everyone, but it was for my aunt.

I have semi wadcutters in .38spl. and no matter how low recoiling of a load, I can still shoot my sub-compact 45acp guns (even with +P 230gr. ammo) quicker and more accurately.

Like I said, most people perceive guns in a different way. The .380 is a lighter recoiling round, but is plenty for defense. My SP101 sees very limited use by accompanying me on bike trips, otherwise it's a semi-auto 99% of the time.

I like revolvers but usually prefer the bigger frames like my GP100 or Redhawk. I see advantages to semi-autos like faster reloads, less recoil, quicker follow up shots and a slimmer profile. Many would not agree with me and that's fine since what works for me may not work for them. Considering we're all individuals with different tastes and wants, it shouldn't really be any different when choosing a firearm for recreation or defense.

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