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Old 01-14-2012, 07:47   #51
knoxrocks222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdsn969 View Post
this looks like a fun (expensive) little gun

http://heizerfirearms.com/

AHHH THE TACTICAL BULL MOOSE HAS RETURNED!!!!!

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Old 01-14-2012, 07:50   #52
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I'd vote PM9, it is smaller than the 26 but still has good sites before you get into the mouse guns with crappy sites.
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Old 01-14-2012, 08:36   #53
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
The Lions?? It's been years since they did as well as this year, so I'm actually quite happy.

Want to know how bad we men are doing with females and shooting? Look around here....look in this thread. Not a lot of replies/perspectives from the female point of view, are there? Nope, just a bunch of us male idiots giving each other idiotic advice.
" It's been years since they did as well as this year, so I'm actually quite happy."

You would be, I'm really surprised your wife let you watch the game.

As to your last message to all us fellow Glockers? I think the Oprah forum is better suited for you, I would think there is so much more you could relate to.
There is so much experience among the shooter here, I tip my hat. I didn't see where anyone was saying a must buy but merly giving suggestion perhaps from what their experience and wife liked, J frame can be the perfect weapon, snubby or semi, boils down to shoot ability and feel for every one.
Well I need to get back to work..........On my new reload bench.
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Old 01-14-2012, 08:38   #54
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The .380 Auto will certainly be adequate for a defensive role, no question about it. However, it is not necessarily the ideal solution, due to less penetration and the ability to deflect easier than something 9mm or better. I would not count on the .380 to be very effective after penetrating a hard barrier, but for a one-on-one encounter at arms-length or so, it will work fine.

Having said that, consider the purpose for this weapon. She needs a small, lightweight firearm that will not be easily detected at work, and that can get her out of a pinch. I would choose the G26 over anything else, but she doesn't think it will work, so no-go on that. Maybe a Kahr PM9 would work, though I would prefer the metal-framed MK9 (less recoil, more comfort, but not my decision). Before selecting ANYTHING, I would do a search for comparison pictures to a G26. Many thinner guns are actually taller and longer than the Glock, making the thickness the least of her concealment problems in a purse.

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You seem to keep going on and on like you know everything, so what do you suggest. You are not still mad because you lost your first game in the playoffs are you
I don't automatically assume that someone feels they know everything, just because they make an accurate comment about one aspect of a subject. A person can know that a small, lightweight revolver in a decent caliber has significantly more recoil than a semi-auto in a similar caliber. You don't have to be a certified expert in a field to know what you're talking about.

I tend to agree with his idea. I had an all-steel Taurus 85 .38 spl revolver that kicked more than my Glock 20 does when shooting 200 gr. XTPs @ 1200 fps. This was the case with all rounds, but more so with 158 gr. loads. I've never fired a snub revolver in .38 or better that wasn't punishing after a box or two. Of course, there are some that are much worse (S&W .357 snub comes to mind). Additionally, the trigger on every revolver I've ever fired is way too long and/or heavy for most people to enjoy. There are plenty of DAO autos that have similar triggers, and people avoid them like the plague, but will recommend a revolver in a heart beat...I don't really get it.

On the flip side, a revolver is the only sensible choice for someone with little-to-no mechanical ability, a handicap or strength issue, or no desire to become proficient. As we all know, many gun owners fall into this category. I do feel it is a fallacy to assume that every new shooter, particularly a female, is not able to understand the aspects of semi-auto operation. A person who can drive a car - something that is much more complex than operating any firearm - or go to work everyday and use critical thinking skills can figure out how to rack a slide and keep their thumbs out of the way. It's easy! As the OP said, his GF shoots his Glock just fine. My wife prefers autos, but gets harassed by every gun shop employee or "gun expert" over 40 years old to buy a snubby .38. I disagree 100%, and feel that this is an old-school, very outdated method of training. You see less and less of this as the old timers disappear, and the younger folks take over.
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Old 01-14-2012, 08:39   #55
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When I met my GF she had just bought a S&W 442 and put CT grips on it.
One of our first dates was shooting and she loves to do it. The only gun she ever shot was a 22 rifle.
She mastered the 442 very fast. If I would have told her she can not shoot a snub maybe the results would have been different.
Now she has shot a Glock 26, Ruger service six .357, LCP, Rem. 870 and 1100, Colt AR15, Ruger mini 14.

I will say she is a natural shooter and sometimes her groups are smaller that mine. I would say let her make the choice of the gun and support her choice.
I would look at Ruger LC9, LCP, or S&W 642/442.
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Old 01-14-2012, 09:12   #56
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I have sponsored 4 classes for women/seniors in the recent past.

Many women were new to shooting, and had just bought a new 38 snubbie/airweight because the gun shop recommended it.

Believe me, women don't like airweights...or snubbies! (I don't even like them).

I was approached later by 2 & ask if I could help them sell their new gun......(38's).

Then, a month ago, I took a 25 year old girl who weighs about 120# to the range. She had shot a g-19 twice (2 shots).

I brought my g-19, g-23, g26, and g-30. I also brought a S&W model 19, and a Taurus Tracker 357 (4"), along with a Ruger 22 & Taurus 22.

She ended up shooting and liking the S&W the best!

Go figger'.

Let THEM make the decision!!!
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Old 01-14-2012, 09:38   #57
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Originally Posted by purrrfect 10 View Post
" It's been years since they did as well as this year, so I'm actually quite happy."

You would be, I'm really surprised your wife let you watch the game.

As to your last message to all us fellow Glockers? I think the Oprah forum is better suited for you, I would think there is so much more you could relate to.
There is so much experience among the shooter here, I tip my hat. I didn't see where anyone was saying a must buy but merly giving suggestion perhaps from what their experience and wife liked, J frame can be the perfect weapon, snubby or semi, boils down to shoot ability and feel for every one.
Well I need to get back to work..........On my new reload bench.
I think you're poking fun at me, but your spelling, punctuation and grammar is making it difficult to be sure. Something about the Lions....something about Oprah.....the rest is gibberish.
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Old 01-14-2012, 09:39   #58
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A hammerless revolver such as an S&W 442 will be lighter in weight than a G26, but it will not be smaller. The footprint is shaped differently, but length/width/height will be about the same. And too, the only ones that will pack a substantially bigger punch than a good +p 9mm HP load would be the small .357's, which are rather punishing to shoot.

You might consider the small 9mm and .40 semi-autos, which are substantially smaller than a G26. Good modern hollow-point loads in these two calibers pack plenty of punch for self-defense. The Beretta Nano has just become my favorite of this group, but other very good choices are the Kahr CM9 or the slightly larger CW9, and the Sig P290.
The 642 is a lot smaller than the G26. But not as small as a LCP, of course. For similarity in size, the 642 should be compared to the Kahr PM9.
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Old 01-14-2012, 09:41   #59
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I know the G26 isn't a "tiny" pistol, but to me it really does feel very similar to a J frame in the pocket and I have both. There are a lot of single stack 9mm's out there, but I'll take my Glock which has never had a failure of any kind over any of them. And I favor it over my J frame due to twice the capacity. I think the G26 would make a PERFECT purse pistol with flat 10 round mag.
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Old 01-14-2012, 09:45   #60
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I had an all-steel Taurus 85 .38 spl revolver that kicked more than my Glock 20 does when shooting 200 gr. XTPs @ 1200 fps. This was the case with all rounds, but more so with 158 gr. loads. I've never fired a snub revolver in .38 or better that wasn't punishing after a box or two. Of course, there are some that are much worse (S&W .357 snub comes to mind). Additionally, the trigger on every revolver I've ever fired is way too long and/or heavy for most people to enjoy. There are plenty of DAO autos that have similar triggers, and people avoid them like the plague, but will recommend a revolver in a heart beat...I don't really get it.

My wife prefers autos, but gets harassed by every gun shop employee or "gun expert" over 40 years old to buy a snubby .38. I disagree 100%, and feel that this is an old-school, very outdated method of training. You see less and less of this as the old timers disappear, and the younger folks take over.
I think it's the "old timers" and their younger followers that keep perpetuating the idea that a snubby is the best "for wimmin folk". Once someone posts about how "firearms experts" or "firearms trainers" recommend one thing or another, I tune them out. If you're on this forum, been shooting for a while, and you can't figure out what works for you from your own experiences, you're too lost to help.
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Old 01-14-2012, 09:48   #61
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S&W 342 ti 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Usmcfox View Post
She shoots my g20 just fine so not a huge concern about recoil. But my question does anyone know of a decent semi-auto or hammer less revolver smaller than a g26 that still packs a punch?
My S&W 342 ti titanium 38 weights 11.1 oz empty and 13.5 loaded
with Speer GDHP 135 gr 38+P Short Barrel ammo.
FBI Protocol test results from a 2" snub nose:
http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/bullet_tests.htm

This little monster is a dream to carry, sweet glassy trigger,
shoots POA at close range and is 100% reliable.
It does kick like a 357 Mag, but if she can handle a G20?
With a XS Big Dot on the nose - SD is pull, point, squeeze.
General Firearms Forum

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Old 01-14-2012, 09:49   #62
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You're (awesome) wife liking revolvers is great, but most females won't enjoy a .357MAG/hot .38SPCL loaded snubby. I'm glad to hear you've gotten your wife into shooting.

Did you start her off with the 4" compensated Ruger .454 Alaskan?
She likes revolvers because she can easily see if they're loaded or not. Her ex was a real jerk and scared her with a little 25acp that he had. He took the mag out and then proceeded to point it at her then he pointed it at his head and told her "It's not loaded" at which point he pointed it at the ground and pulled the trigger and it went off. Guess the dumb***** didn't remember about the one in the chamber Anyway, after that she's just not comfortable with small semi-autos and would rather have a revolver.
I took her shooting for the first time back in the mid-'80's while we were dating. I wanted her to understand what a gun was and was not and since I owned them I wanted her to know how to use them and be safe with them.
At the time I had an EMF Dakota SAA copy in 357Mag, 5.5" bbl, color case frame. We went out to the desert and I loaded it up with some 38spl loads and taught her how to shoot. She pretty much took to it like a duck to water.
She doesn't make firearms a priority like I do though, she really doesn't care if she has one or not. I, on the other hand, just don't feel right without one. Still, I'd like to pick up a decent little revolver and let her get use to shooting it enough for her to take her CCW so she can carry if she'd like.
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Old 01-14-2012, 09:49   #63
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Kahr P9, or PM9 is smaller than a G26 and is the same caliber.
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Old 01-14-2012, 09:51   #64
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You know, I've never really thought of the PPK/S as a "gender specific" firearm, but now that you mention it.......Yeah, women do seem to gravitate to it for whatever reason...........(It unquestionably has very refined style and is small enough to be thought of as "non-intimidating"......women seem to pick up on these things.)
General Firearms Forum
I've heard some people complain of the recoil because of the fixed barrel, but to my way of thinking, it's not bad at all. It's all steel, and the 380 does not have that much recoil in the Walther frame. I suspect with some who comment in the negative, it's more anticipation than real sensitivity......


ooc
The PPK does have snappy recoil, and the potential for slide bite, and is heavy for it's size. It also is traditional double action, which some prefer and some do not, so the user has to consider if they want that.

Because the PPK/S has the longer grip, that version might reduce the recoil a little.

Personally, I prefer the lighter polymer LCP that is double action only, no safety, a little smaller than the PPK, and has about the same or less recoil.
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Old 01-14-2012, 09:54   #65
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
I think it's the "old timers" and their younger followers that keep perpetuating the idea that a snubby is the best "for wimmin folk". Once someone posts about how "firearms experts" or "firearms trainers" recommend one thing or another, I tune them out. If you're on this forum, been shooting for a while, and you can't figure out what works for you from your own experiences, you're too lost to help.

Here's my thoughts as to why a revolver like a j-frame is a great purse gun.
A woman can actually fire it from inside a pruse, and get off more than one shot.
Doubt this would be possible with a semi auto like the G26.

Now, I will agree, for "on body" carry there are other choices. Also,
a .357 Mag j-frame would not be a recommendation of mine for most
women. .38 Special,....yes, very capable caliber for defense.
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Old 01-14-2012, 09:55   #66
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Snubbys are terrible, especially for smaller, lighter people. Even in .38SPL, the recoil is awful. .357MAG? Just stupid uncomfortable. Autos absorb much of the recoil energy to cycle the action, so they're much more comfortable to shoot. Most autos will also have better sights than snubbys to boot.

I was at the range a few weeks ago, and there was a husband and wife out shooting their snubby. The wife was having less fun than a root canal, and even the husband could barely hit the broadside of a barn at 10 yards.

I cannot understand why anyone suggests sunbbys for new shooters/CCWers, when there are so many better autos out there. If we want more people to get into shooting, they need to have better suggestions from experienced shooters. They can't go to the range the first time with their new snubby they bought on some idiot's suggestion, and find the experience horrible. The experience will turn them off to shooting, and they won't continue shooting and recruiting more people into shooting.

For Christ's sake, can we please stop suggesting awful firearms to new shooters?
My wife has a snubbie and loves it, and can shoot it more accurately than most guys shoot their autos. You raise good issues, but need to balance with the other qualities of the snubbie too.

We teach new women shooters, and work them through a progression of guns. For a small carry gun, the snubbie becomes a viable option for them. The recoil with standard loads is typically no worse than the small .380. The reliabilty is superb, so is concealibilty. You can easily pick from a variaty of grips to best fit the user. Operation is straight forward and easy to understand. The gun is as accurrate as any other, and learning to shoot it well furthers overall shooting skills.

But these issues need to be understood in overall context of the many choices in guns out there.

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Old 01-14-2012, 09:57   #67
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My S&W 342 ti titanium 38 weighs 11.1 oz empty and 13.5 loaded with Speer GDHP 135 gr 38+P Short Barrel ammo.

This little monster is a.........It does kick like a 357 Mag.
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Old 01-14-2012, 10:01   #68
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Here's my thoughts as to why a revolver like a j-frame is a great purse gun.
A woman can actually fire it from inside a pruse, and get off more than one shot.
Doubt this would be possible with a semi auto like the G26.

Now, I will agree, for "on body" carry there are other choices. Also,
a .357 Mag j-frame would not be a recommendation of mine for most
women. .38 Special,....yes, very capable caliber for defense.
This is the same old b.s. that "firearms trainers" have been bloviating on for 50 years.....them wimmin folk are gonna shoot from inside their purse.

Yep, that's gonna work.....reaaaal well.

If a new shooter is offered many different pistols to try, and they pick a snubby, fine. Load up said snubby with .38SCPL+P JHPs, or .357Mags, and the chances they'll choose the snubby over the many other choices available today isn't that great. From the poor sights, long difficult to master trigger, to the poor sights.....there's just many, many better choices out there on the market today. Ones that make getting hits on the target much, much easier, which makes shooting fun.

I apporach this subject not just from a self-defense perspective, but from the idea that it's much better for people to enjoy shooting, to the point where they want to do it for a life time. The more people we get involved in shooting, the more protected our 2A rights will be in the future. Starting new shooters and CCWers off with nasty shooting pistols is not the way to bring new peple to shooting and keep them with us.
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Old 01-14-2012, 10:11   #69
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I think you're poking fun at me, but your spelling, punctuation and grammar is making it difficult to be sure. Something about the Lions....something about Oprah.....the rest is gibberish.
Never ceases to impress how a query for advice can turn to mud slinging. Stay classy, dude.

OP - I'd read through the options listed in this thread and other online sources and spend a day at the range with your wife to try out the various options before committing. Have a good one!
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Old 01-14-2012, 10:16   #70
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
This is the same old b.s. that "firearms trainers" have been bloviating on for 50 years.....them wimmin folk are gonna shoot from inside their purse.

Yep, that's gonna work.....reaaaal well.

Which brings us right back to a snubby.
You're hopeless,........
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Old 01-14-2012, 10:20   #71
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Originally Posted by faawrenchbndr View Post
Here's my thoughts as to why a revolver like a j-frame is a great purse gun.
A woman can actually fire it from inside a pruse, and get off more than one shot.
Doubt this would be possible with a semi auto like the G26.

Now, I will agree, for "on body" carry there are other choices. Also,
a .357 Mag j-frame would not be a recommendation of mine for most
women. .38 Special,....yes, very capable caliber for defense.
Not to mention that it's significantly less likely to have a malfunction, can't be weak-wristed, and if a round fails to fire, you just pull the trigger again.

Since the OP's girlfriend has already got some semi-auto experience, she's probably willing to practice a semi-auto, learn failure drills, and be able to rely on one for self defense. HOWEVER, I don't like the idea of semi's for purse carry, much for the reason you stated, in addition to the innate advantages of a revolver.
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Old 01-14-2012, 10:27   #72
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Nice to know someone sees my point.

I do agree with the point that the decision of WHAT firearm someone
should carry, is best left to the individual.

Many have complained about the size of the grip on the Beretta 92fs.
My wife is 5'5", 125lbs,......so an average size Lady. She has NO problems
with the Beretta's grip, she shoots it better than most men!

Any rate,.........thanks 'Plank, I'm outta this one before I ruffle some one's feathers.
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Old 01-14-2012, 10:31   #73
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You're hopeless,........
Right back atcha' pardnor!!!
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Old 01-14-2012, 10:39   #74
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Not to mention that it's significantly less likely to have a malfunction, can't be weak-wristed, and if a round fails to fire, you just pull the trigger again.
All of this is true, there are definitely some advantages to revolvers. But you know what? The average woman/new shooter does not care about that stuff.

Everything you listed are concers that seasoned shooters discuss in forums like this, or over a beer at the local range. New shooters, especially women, are more interested in finding what appeals to them, and as others have noted, what appeals to them is not necessarily always based on logic or facts.

We need to focus on getting more new shooters, and especially more new women shooters, onto the ranges. Forget about the minute details and circumstance specific reasons why you think a particular pistol is the right one to recommend. Most of the reasons that would cause you to recommend a pistol are of little importance to new female shooters. They have completely different ways of figuring stuff like that out, of what concerns them, from you.
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Old 01-14-2012, 10:43   #75
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Originally Posted by manonmars View Post
I have sponsored 4 classes for women/seniors in the recent past.

Many women were new to shooting, and had just bought a new 38 snubbie/airweight because the gun shop recommended it.

Believe me, women don't like airweights...or snubbies! (I don't even like them).

I was approached later by 2 & ask if I could help them sell their new gun......(38's).

Then, a month ago, I took a 25 year old girl who weighs about 120# to the range. She had shot a g-19 twice (2 shots).

I brought my g-19, g-23, g26, and g-30. I also brought a S&W model 19, and a Taurus Tracker 357 (4"), along with a Ruger 22 & Taurus 22.

She ended up shooting and liking the S&W the best!

Go figger'.

Let THEM make the decision!!!
Glad you are putting that effort in. My club is just old guys who want to shoot, and have the women serve coffee. My wife's club does all the organizing, holds women's instruction and shooting events, and pays to get women certified as NRA instructors.

Of course those larger guns are nice to shoot. But keep in mind that for carry, the smaller guns are better suited to actually being carried in real life.

Nothing worse than a jamomatic. Haven't you seen women show up with those, too? They pull out the small mousegun they've been carrying, small sights, can't hit anything, and jam. At least if they have a snubbie, you can have them put some 148gr waddcutters, which are low recoil, and you can start working on fundamentals with a gun that doesn't jam. You can work them on a variety of guns, have them consider the different choices out there, and at the end of the day they go home shooting their small reliable carry gun much better then when they started.

The woman with the small jamomatic? She's going home not able to get her gun working right, and is thinking about options on what to buy next.

You and me? We are gun enthusiasts, and hobbyists, and some are even firearms proffesionals. We'll buy several guns, always buying the next one. If we get one that jams we are working out different loads for it, polishing parts, switching out springs, buying different mags, and if worst comes to worst, sending it back to the factory while switch attention to one of our other 20 carry guns. The average shooter wecare trying to teach is not like that. They just want a carry gun that works, and maybe another larger gun if they also start to get involved in target shooting some. They can ultimately shoot both guns, but we can't assume they are going to get a collection and become like us.
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42