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Old 12-22-2011, 13:11   #1
45reloader
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How long after the fall will they come for our resources

Do you worry starving nations will send millions of people to our bread basket after the fall. Let's face it after all exports of food cease we might get massive numbers of starving people willing to do anything to survive.
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Old 12-22-2011, 13:40   #2
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The only way they could get here is by walking so it would just be Canada and Mexico. Seems to me we already have a problem with millions of unwanted coming here.

The question is, what are WE going to do when all the oil stops flowing? Drill baby, drill.
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Old 12-22-2011, 13:49   #3
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How would they send them? How would they get here? Swim?

Seriously, I think that threat is extremely low as the only connection between us and the starving world is two oceans and an arctic ice cap.

Central Americans on the Equator live in a region of plentiful food and dependable growing climate. Anyone who did march North en masse would have to survive crossing Mexico...and then be met by our forces on our border. That process (and our matching defensive preps) would transpire over many months. It would be more likely that North Americans march south to where the food is.

Millions of people cannot simply be placed into non-existent fleets of boats and then be shipped to North America. Unless you are simply trying to feed the fishes.

There isn't even an aggressor military force on planet Earth that could do that with their troops. Not even the Chinese.

You've got no worries on that count.

After a Total Fall? A toe-hold military invasion of a few points of desirable territory (HA?, FLA?, coastal Texas? NW California?)? Maybe. But not millions or even hundreds of thousands of invaders. More like a couple thousand or less in an post-apocalyptic world.

Moving troops requires aircraft and ships...which require fuel and technical infrastructure. Otherwise, you'd need several decades to redevelop an Age-of-Sail Navy that could mount a localized landing.

By that time, our children would be full-blown AR-totin', Mad Max ridin', Cannibal Warriors waiting for free lunch to arrive on the beaches.

Last edited by Chindo18Z; 12-22-2011 at 17:36..
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Old 12-22-2011, 14:29   #4
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First off, they'll be to hungry to come very far so as long as you don't live near the borders you'll be fine and second off, we're armed(or should be) so we should be able to defend ourselves against a bunch of half starved folks.
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Old 12-22-2011, 20:21   #5
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Before this happens, the US Government will try to confiscate ptivatley held food to feed those that did not prepare- redistribution, baby! IIRC, FEMA has this in their regs somewhere.

I am surpised that the gov. does not encourage all citizens to stockpile food for a year or two, groing as far as to make suggested list available, tax breaks, ect ect. This would create a reseve of food, creted out of federal budgets, yet available to the Gove when the balloon goes up.
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Old 12-22-2011, 21:36   #6
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This would create a reseve of food, creted out of federal budgets, yet available to the Gove when the balloon goes up.
Why wouldn't they just do it themselves then? Would save all the hassle/expense of going door to door tens of millions of times to collect food.
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Old 12-22-2011, 23:20   #7
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It puts resource in comunities, localized, that they do not have to pay for or transport.
They can use the "see, we took this from those evil rich people' angle to gain popular support, ect.
Just a thought, did not say it was the master plan.
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Old 12-23-2011, 04:24   #8
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Old 12-23-2011, 07:08   #9
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I would be much more worried about "government" coming for crops, livestock, and stores than I would a water-walking foreign zombie invasion force. You don't need foreign boogeymen when you have sociopaths right here at home.
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Old 12-23-2011, 10:23   #10
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look up 1917 russia.
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Old 12-23-2011, 11:24   #11
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Originally Posted by Chindo18Z View Post
How would they send them? How would they get here? Swim?

Millions of people cannot simply be placed into non-existent fleets of boats and then be shipped to North America. Unless you are simply trying to feed the fishes.
Not saying it will ever happen but I found this part of your post very funny.

How do you think the Vikings did it? Ever hear about Chris Columbus? How about the Mayflower? Do you know how the slaves came here from Africa?

Ship building does not require electricity or oil.

Just saying.
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Old 12-23-2011, 13:33   #12
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Yeah, you know because when they don't have enough food, they're going to be liberal enough with their supplies, and workers will work for free to build boats, to ship people who have never piloted a boat, across an ocean......


Cutting down a few trees, and nailing them togeather, does not mean you suddenly became an ocean fairing captain.
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Old 12-23-2011, 13:38   #13
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Not saying it will ever happen but I found this part of your post very funny.

How do you think the Vikings did it? Ever hear about Chris Columbus? How about the Mayflower? Do you know how the slaves came here from Africa?

Ship building does not require electricity or oil.
Quote:
Just saying.
No ****.

If you read my post & the OP's, you'd realize that millions of starving people are not going to make it across the ATLANTIC or PACIFIC oceans without significant lead time (measured in years) needed to:

1. Build the requisite boats & ships
2. Train enough sailors to a level of competency to make such voyages
3. Train, equip, and support a necessary military invasion force

Societies who are unable to make a go of rice, corn, millet, wheat, or potato crops do not automatically possess the default knowledge, raw materials, or skills necessary to build ships and sail their populations around the planet. Kind of hard to build wooden boats...when you have already deforested your food-short landscape.

Now...if their local regimes simply push starving people out to sea as boat people...the sharks and gulls will be well fed...and a lucky few will wash up on our shores.

What happens after that is dependent upon how well armed all parties are at that time and how charitable (or hungry) Americans & Canadians are feeling on that day.

Did you ever notice how few Vikings were found alive in North America as later European settlers spread westward during a four centuries long period of colonization?

The Vikings were superlative sailors and colonizers who barely eked out a transitory toehold in North America. The Pilgrims were a paltry few hundred religious zealots who died like flies while their betters to the south were making a pretty good financial go of the Virginia Colony. The Spanish failed in their attempt to wrest North American suzerainty precisely because they could never generate enough colonists or military strength to maintain their holdings against the English, the French, the Texans, the Comanches, the Kiowas, or the Apaches. Africans were brought to the continent after mass capture by their own black tribal leaders and/or Arab slave traders... and further sale to Europeans for labor in the New World. Look up Trans-Atlantic Triangular Trade System (Sugar - Rum - Slaves).

No. Millions of starving people are not going to descend on North America. They will simply die in place instead...just as millions of starving people across the world have done in the past.

Just sayin'.

Last edited by Chindo18Z; 12-23-2011 at 13:41..
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Old 12-23-2011, 18:38   #14
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Originally Posted by Chindo18Z View Post
No ****.

If you read my post & the OP's, you'd realize that millions of starving people are not going to make it across the ATLANTIC or PACIFIC oceans without significant lead time (measured in years) needed to:

1. Build the requisite boats & ships
2. Train enough sailors to a level of competency to make such voyages
3. Train, equip, and support a necessary military invasion force

Societies who are unable to make a go of rice, corn, millet, wheat, or potato crops do not automatically possess the default knowledge, raw materials, or skills necessary to build ships and sail their populations around the planet. Kind of hard to build wooden boats...when you have already deforested your food-short landscape.

Now...if their local regimes simply push starving people out to sea as boat people...the sharks and gulls will be well fed...and a lucky few will wash up on our shores.

What happens after that is dependent upon how well armed all parties are at that time and how charitable (or hungry) Americans & Canadians are feeling on that day.

Did you ever notice how few Vikings were found alive in North America as later European settlers spread westward during a four centuries long period of colonization?

The Vikings were superlative sailors and colonizers who barely eked out a transitory toehold in North America. The Pilgrims were a paltry few hundred religious zealots who died like flies while their betters to the south were making a pretty good financial go of the Virginia Colony. The Spanish failed in their attempt to wrest North American suzerainty precisely because they could never generate enough colonists or military strength to maintain their holdings against the English, the French, the Texans, the Comanches, the Kiowas, or the Apaches. Africans were brought to the continent after mass capture by their own black tribal leaders and/or Arab slave traders... and further sale to Europeans for labor in the New World. Look up Trans-Atlantic Triangular Trade System (Sugar - Rum - Slaves).

No. Millions of starving people are not going to descend on North America. They will simply die in place instead...just as millions of starving people across the world have done in the past.

Just sayin'.
Maybe I am confused about the topic- Seems to me that in this day and age there are enough countries with the resources and skills needed to make such a migration. Not millions at once but over time and given the reproductive nature of humans, perhaps. Again if you read my post - I didn't say I thought it would ever actually happen.

Thanks for your well thought out reply! I appreciate your wit and humor...
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Old 12-23-2011, 18:48   #15
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
Yeah, you know because when they don't have enough food, they're going to be liberal enough with their supplies, and workers will work for free to build boats, to ship people who have never piloted a boat, across an ocean......


Cutting down a few trees, and nailing them togeather, does not mean you suddenly became an ocean fairing captain.
Since the OP was extremely vague as to just what event would cause this to happen and he did ask HOW LONG? I have to imagine that any sensible action on the part of any one of scores of developed countries would require haste while resources are available and not waiting until they are at death's door.

If you want to spin a vague question about a far fetched idea to the worst possible scenario so be it.

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Old 12-23-2011, 19:18   #16
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When will "who" come for our stuff?

I think that it will be city, county and state governments who figure out that some folks have stuff that they would like to have.
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Old 12-23-2011, 21:01   #17
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Remember folks,I started a thread awhile ago about the "discount" cards.Those that grocers give customers that take off a certain amount of $$$ for buying a certain product.

The buyers use those stats ta plan for long range purchases.So,they keep the "card" holders name/addy ect on file.All it would take is a "warrant" and .gov would know whom bought what and when and in what quantity.Most folk don't realize this and our honest when they fill the application out.'08.
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Old 12-23-2011, 21:57   #18
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sebecman: Seems to me that in this day and age there are enough countries with the resources and skills needed to make such a migration. Not millions at once but over time and given the reproductive nature of humans, perhaps.
Perhaps you are right, although I think interlopers would run out of serious ships long before we ran out of munitions to sink them. It would have to be a somewhat unorganized mass exodus of boat people. 1980's Haiti/Cuba refugee flotillas x 10,000. Few would survive the trip unless they were coming from the Caribbean.

I think the ultimate argument against mass-migration for food would be an economic one. By the time nations realized (or admitted) that they were in such a quandary, most of their wealth would likely already have been expended. Nation states without existing fleets would hardly be in a position to buy, rent, build, or requisition ships. Commercial shipping firms would have long since re-directed their vessels to more profitable routes.

Even major nations that possess shipping (e.g., China) would hardly be in a position to simply move mass percentages of their population. Assuming they even had access to the required fuel to do so.

The most likely world response to such situations would be to move the food to the famine...rather than move the starving masses to more fertile fields. It's cheaper and easier to move grain, livestock, pesticides, irrigation equipment, consultants, & fertilizer to the problem than to move and house masses of humanity. Everyone gets paid...the standard and preferred economic equation.

Uninvited export of ill fed masses by the Have-nots would simply be regarded as invasion by the Have nations.

What's interesting to me is that we always assume that WE will be the stewards of an inexhaustible breadbasket. What if some sort of bio-engineered agricultural plague devastated our growing centers...or Yellowstone blew...etc.?

The shoe would then be on the other foot...and the survivor North Americans would be on the march...with a blue water navy, nukes, and hungry bellies. We probably could take immediate measures to secure what we need from other nations. As long as we moved decisively and quickly.

Last edited by Chindo18Z; 12-24-2011 at 10:51..
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Old 12-23-2011, 23:29   #19
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Old 12-24-2011, 06:27   #20
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Most folks fill those apps out in store,whether they have a mail drop or not.So they give accurate info and become part of the database.'08.
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