[TalkToTheGlock]

A GSW to the pelvis is most certainly more fatal than a thoracic shot. Mesentaric artery which branches to femoral. In an instant kill situation, the CNS, preferable through on eye or between the midline of the skull about 1 inch below the tip of a
bg nose will severe the spinal cord and result in sub C1 severance resultaing in instant death/paralyzation.

Midline right below the zyphoid on the sternum will puncture the inferior vena cava and result in death in roughly 30 seconds.

Just shoot 'em.

[NAC]

Originally Posted by TalkToTheGlock

A GSW to the pelvis is most certainly more fatal than a thoracic shot. Mesentaric artery which branches to femoral. In an instant kill situation, the CNS, preferable through on eye or between the midline of the skull about 1 inch below the tip of a
bg nose will severe the spinal cord and result in sub C1 severance resultaing in instant death/paralyzation.

Midline right below the zyphoid on the sternum will puncture the inferior vena cava and result in death in roughly 30 seconds.

Just shoot 'em.

Actually bud, for a flaccid incapacition shot one needs to shoot right through the middle of the nose to hit the brain stem. It's called a ocular-cranial shot. Severing C1 is not the objective in an incapacitation shot, it's destroying the brain stem which is superior to C1.

Also why would someone try to shoot for such a small target as the inferior vena cava. Most people don't even know what the xiphoid process is never mind where it's located. The cardiac muscle is what we want to destroy, it's a much bigger target. Besides 30 seconds to death is still a long time for a BG to fight. I know I can easily empty 3 mags in 30 seconds. To much time in a gun fight. BTW I've seen the end results of gunshots-7.62x51 in Iraq that completely severed femoral arteries and the person kept fighting and even talked to us after we got them and started to work on them.

Not trying to be a dick but to claim that a pelvic shot is more fatal than a thoracic shot is just incorrect.

[betes]

Also, the mesenteric arteries do not give rise to the femorals. The femoral arteries branch straight off the aorta.

[GreyEclipse]

Skulls are pretty good at stopping and/or deflecting bullets...

[NAC]

Originally Posted by GreyEclipse

Skulls are pretty good at stopping and/or deflecting bullets...

Who said anything about shooting through the skull? Meaning the frontal, parietal, temporal or occipital bones. I said an ocular-cranial shot through the nose, which will penetrate cartilage and the weakest bone in the head the nasal bone. Either way I wouldn't want to get hit in the head with a round. Penetration or not it's still going to ruin someone's day.

[X-ray 4N6]

It sounds like your refering to Trooper Mark Coates. If so, Coates fired 5 rounds of .357 Magnum 145 GR. Winchester Silvertips into the suspects chest. None of the rounds hit the suspects face. If I remember correctly the suspect showed hardly any effect when the rounds struck him. After being struck with all 5 rounds he fired the fatal shot that ended up killing Coates. Coates died within minutes.

See my canned response to this kind of observation:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthre...1275873&page=2

Post 36

[elkriver48]

I have read many of the post on this thread with great interest and have felt that many have contributed to my learning curve.
However, I do have some questions, especially for those members who may have a LE background.
I totally understand the concept of "shoot them till they drop". But...what happens if, say your second bullet out of four striking your assailant causes him to turn around (for whatever reason) and while he still stands in the poor light your remaining two strike him in the back? Cannot, will not, an eager PA charge you with murder/excessive force/whatever in that case?
It seems to me that the legal citizen attempting to protect himself or family is darned if he does and darned if he doesn't. I throughly enjoy the writings of Massad Ayoub and these, as much as anything have helped raise this question in my mind.
I don't know who said it, but I also appreciate the saying,"Better to be tried by 12 then carried by 6." I just hope never to be put into the situation. I will always opt for Option 3 first...(Run!)
I would greatly appreciate thoughtful responses.
Finally, though I have used your search engine, I cannot find the answer to...I have some Black Talon from when it first came out. I believe it was then made illegal for us civilians to carry...is that edict still in effect?

[Glockbuster]

Your question regarding the self defense situation would be best directed to Mas Ayoob directly in the forum "GATE self defense". It is another forum here in Glocktalk. I would trust his advice over others.

Regarding your black talons, carry them with confidence--they are as far as I know legal in states where hollow point ammo is legal. AFAIK, Winchester changed the name for PR reasons and made it better, but that is very good bullet technology.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by elkriver48

I have read many of the post on this thread with great interest and have felt that many have contributed to my learning curve.
However, I do have some questions, especially for those members who may have a LE background.
I totally understand the concept of "shoot them till they drop". But...what happens if, say your second bullet out of four striking your assailant causes him to turn around (for whatever reason) and while he still stands in the poor light your remaining two strike him in the back? Cannot, will not, an eager PA charge you with murder/excessive force/whatever in that case?
It seems to me that the legal citizen attempting to protect himself or family is darned if he does and darned if he doesn't. I throughly enjoy the writings of Massad Ayoub and these, as much as anything have helped raise this question in my mind.
I don't know who said it, but I also appreciate the saying,"Better to be tried by 12 then carried by 6." I just hope never to be put into the situation. I will always opt for Option 3 first...(Run!)
I would greatly appreciate thoughtful responses.
Finally, though I have used your search engine, I cannot find the answer to...I have some Black Talon from when it first came out. I believe it was then made illegal for us civilians to carry...is that edict still in effect?

Limted LE background here, but IMO, if it;s a good shooting, the fact the BG has 1 or 2 in the front & 3 or 4 in his back will be irrelivent.

[X-ray 4N6]

The issue to do with shooting people in the back in some circumstances has been discussed in Vincent DiMaio's book "Gunshot Wounds."
In chapter 9, page 273 he references the following article:

Tobin, EJ and Fackler ML. Officer reaction-response time in firing a handgun. Wound Ballistics Review (1997); 3(1):6-9.

According to DiMaio, they found out that "it was possible for the individual to turn their torso and end up facing away from the shooter in the time from when the shooter decides to fire and the gun discharges."

Regarding the Black Talon/Original Ranger SXT...I don't believe there is any regulation of their use and you would not be in any worse trouble for using those than for using the newer Ranger-T ammunition.
However, you need to know that the older Ranger SXT ammunition is now dated. I've seen them suffer core-jacket separations and you are best served using a better designed JHP. If that was me, it would probably be the Gold Dot.
There is a lot of myth and confusion associated with the Ranger SXT line of ammunition, if you want to know all the correct details, head over to the forum of the International Ammunition Association:

http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=207

That's an archived thread before the upgrade.

[NAC]

What X-ray said. Had a similar case here in AZ a few years ago. AZ DPS officer shot and killed a suspect who ended up facing away from the trooper in the process. Good shoot and cleared. I'll try to look up the case.

The other issue is, one can be maneuvering out of the line of fire and end up with the suspects back facing you. If the BG is still actively engaging you even if your facing his rear, well then good shoot.

[phil evans]

dead right there!
South Africa vets using identical cartridges in a culling operation on cape buffalo were instructed to shoot for broadside and hit heart/lung area.
some buffalo went down instantly - others ran.
autopsies revealed that the drt had massive cranial explosion.
theory was when shot at the instant of heart pumping, the large increase in blood pressure impacted the brain cavity and caused massive hemorrhaging- the blood acted hydraulically(non compressible) to increase blood pressure.

[M&P Shooter]

WOW I posted in this thread

[true believer]

Originally Posted by MOHAA Player

I look at the whole situation of stopping power as anything can happen,and shoot until there is no more threat.If we get invaded or something else on that level I am only relying on my handgun to get me back home to a long rifle.

this guy would swear by a 10mm!!!

[M&P Shooter]

Originally Posted by true believer

this guy would swear by a 10mm!!!

Hey it's my favorite stalker

[true believer]

Originally Posted by M&P Shooter

Hey it's my favorite stalker

[gator378]

Originally Posted by GreyEclipse

Skulls are pretty good at stopping and/or deflecting bullets...

Thanks. For dangerous game that explains why the lung shot is preferred.

It doesn't take much angle to make a bullet ricochet harmlessly off.

[SCmasterblaster]

Link doesn't work at 2100 12Sep11

[tango44]

Tagged!

[BB611]

The FBI website has changed, the original article can be found here: http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/pu...s/oct04leb.pdf

[firerescue1231]

good article thanks

[Limedust]

Sounds to me like I should carry a rifle, a handgun, and a good, sharp, hook bladed knife.

And my pockets are already so full . . .

[bumpin88]

Originally Posted by NAC

Who said anything about shooting through the skull? Meaning the frontal, parietal, temporal or occipital bones. I said an ocular-cranial shot through the nose, which will penetrate cartilage and the weakest bone in the head the nasal bone. Either way I wouldn't want to get hit in the head with a round. Penetration or not it's still going to ruin someone's day.

There was a shooting about a month or two ago in my area were the gentleman was shot in the face. From what i understand and heard the bullet hit the guy in the sinuses and caused severe damage, but he ran away from the scene and survived. So even a head/face shot is not a for sure fight stopper. Yes this man had a bad day, but if he was armed he could have returned fire.

[SCmasterblaster]

Originally Posted by bumpin88

There was a shooting about a month or two ago in my area were the gentleman was shot in the face. From what i understand and heard the bullet hit the guy in the sinuses and caused severe damage, but he ran away from the scene and survived. So even a head/face shot is not a for sure fight stopper. Yes this man had a bad day, but if he was armed he could have returned fire.

I bet that he avoided sneezing for a while

[NAC]

Originally Posted by bumpin88

There was a shooting about a month or two ago in my area were the gentleman was shot in the face. From what i understand and heard the bullet hit the guy in the sinuses and caused severe damage, but he ran away from the scene and survived. So even a head/face shot is not a for sure fight stopper. Yes this man had a bad day, but if he was armed he could have returned fire.

It is if it makes it to the brain or brain stem. Sure, it can happen where people are hit in the head but if the round doesn't penetrate to vital areas anything can happen. What caliber was used? What angle was the shot taken from, from the side of the face into the cavity or directly anterior to posterior? Did it stop the threat? All rhetorical questions not meant to be pugnacious in anyway.

The only thing that will stop a fight instantly is a CNS hit. For that a shooter must hit the brain, brain stem, or spine. If the bullet doesn't pass through the in-between mediums to hit those anatomical structures then it's anyones call what will happen. The human will to survive can't be quantified. In the early 80's there was an officer that took a shotgun slug to the face and survived. He's seen in many police training videos.

Not saying it can't happen, but if someone is shot with a high velocity rifle round to the critical areas. the chances are less than good that they will survive or at a minimum continue to fight.