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Old 07-12-2011, 12:31   #181
Gunboat1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stmcelroy View Post
Don't know where that "statistic" came from, but can one ever truly be armed good enough for any encounter? Not sure about you but even a Glock 17 with 17+1 and an extra 17rd mag ONLY gets you to 35 rounds, what if you are really facing a mob?

The majority of us are looking to protect ourselves from the one or two thugs that we may encounter, not be armed to take on a huge group of people.
Lots of discussion earlier in this thread explaining the scenario we are considering. You might want to read the whole thread.

Short version: five medium-power shots in a short-barreled weapon with marginal sights, relatively high recoil, a heavy trigger pull and an excruciatingly slow reload time just might not be the best choice for self-defense, when better weapons exist. It isn't so hard to improve your armament if you will accept this.
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Old 07-12-2011, 13:14   #182
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"Ah, I understand. People only shoot high-capacity semiautos to cover up for their poor marksmanship. A short barrel, long, stiff trigger and marginal sights will result in perfect hits, and all one-shot stops from a middling-powerful caliber fired from that short barrel will definitely happen, assuring you of winning over three attackers, with two shots left over for coups de grace."

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Old 07-12-2011, 13:16   #183
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Originally Posted by Gunboat1 View Post
Ah, I understand. People only shoot high-capacity semiautos to cover up for their poor marksmanship. A short barrel, long, stiff trigger and marginal sights will result in perfect hits, and all one-shot stops from a middling-powerful caliber fired from that short barrel will definitely happen, assuring you of winning over three attackers, with two shots left over for coups de grace.


(Sorry for the duplicate post)
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Old 07-13-2011, 18:15   #184
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Originally Posted by Gunboat1 View Post
Lots of discussion earlier in this thread explaining the scenario we are considering. You might want to read the whole thread.

Short version: five medium-power shots in a short-barreled weapon with marginal sights, relatively high recoil, a heavy trigger pull and an excruciatingly slow reload time just might not be the best choice for self-defense, when better weapons exist. It isn't so hard to improve your armament if you will accept this.
A few comments:

Reading the whole thread is a good and helpful suggestion.

But maybe stmcelroy has read the whole thread......

The "Short version" noted above by Gunboat1 is a cogent and persuasive argument for carrying something with more ammo capacity and better shootability than a snubbie; but it is merely the short version of the position that Gunboat1 and others hold. Reading the whole thread will elicit the short version for the opposing view.

As an old fat man relatively new to firearms I envy folks who can easily CC a G19/23 or G26/27. I would if I could -- instead of a snubbie -- but I can't. So a snubbie or a small Kahr in the pocket will have to do.

I'll admit that the snubbie is not for the unpracticed novice. But neither is the manual-safety-less Glock uncomfortably stuck by a noobie of less-than-admirable physique in an awkward IWB holster. It all gets down to solutions tailored to individual cases.

The value of this thread derives from the variety of viewpoints representing a multitude of individual factors (experience, ability, physical capability) pertinent to individual persons. I have learned much....
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Old 07-14-2011, 13:53   #185
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Originally Posted by stmcelroy View Post
Don't know where that "statistic" came from, but can one ever truly be armed good enough for any encounter? Not sure about you but even a Glock 17 with 17+1 and an extra 17rd mag ONLY gets you to 35 rounds, what if you are really facing a mob?

The majority of us are looking to protect ourselves from the one or two thugs that we may encounter, not be armed to take on a huge group of people.
Really. What about HUMAN WAVE attacks? What if everyone at the Super Dome suddenly got pissed at you? How about the population of Virginia? How many rounds should we carry? (SARCASM)
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Old 07-14-2011, 17:41   #186
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Really. What about HUMAN WAVE attacks? What if everyone at the Super Dome suddenly got pissed at you? How about the population of Virginia? How many rounds should we carry? (SARCASM)
More than five.
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Old 07-14-2011, 18:40   #187
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More than five.

So AFTER you shoot the first few the 'mob' will continue to advance? Refresh my memory on robbery videos that support this. What I have seen is when ANY firearm is displayed THEY RUN. When the first one gets shot THEY RUN REAL FAST.

I assume you are not running out for a bottle of milk in Afghanistan where it is possible to run across a few people don't mind dying for their virgins. When it comes to Jamal, and Pedro, they probably are NOT willing to sacrifice their lives in a 7-11.
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Old 08-03-2011, 16:41   #188
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"Probably". Hmmm. Many criminals have been shot before, and lived. They aren't all that scared of you. Some will stand and fight. There are lots of examples of gunfights that have gone on longer than the so-called statistical norm. Read Robert Waters' "Guns Save Lives" for a few examples. If you are out of ammo after five shots, you die. I rest my case.
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Old 08-03-2011, 17:05   #189
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"Probably". Hmmm. Many criminals have been shot before, and lived.
They probably faced crappy shots with semi autos.
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Old 08-03-2011, 20:06   #190
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Like everything the answer is that it depends. There is no hard and fast rule. When I go to the 60 acre off leash dog park the SP101 or M&P 340 CT come along. If I am running errands around town (the suburbs) sometimes only the P-3AT comes along. If I am going into downtown then the G26 with either the P-3AT or the M&P 340 are with me. If I really had to pick just one it would probably be none of the above. It would be a single stack 9mm like a Ruger LC9. I am smitten with my revolvers but my G26 has been gaining ground.

Anyone remember the movie "The Gambler" with Kenny Rogers. When confronted by four guys with knives Brady Hawkes (Rogers) pulls out his derringer. One of the bad guys remarks that Hawkes only has two bullets and there are four of them. Hawkes replies, "The question is... which two of you are willing to take the bullets? So the other two can do the cutting."

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Old 08-04-2011, 13:55   #191
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Like everything the answer is that it depends. There is no hard and fast rule. When I go to the 60 acre off leash dog park the SP101 or M&P 340 CT come along. If I am running errands around town (the suburbs) sometimes only the P-3AT comes along. If I am going into downtown then the G26 with either the P-3AT or the M&P 340 are with me. If I really had to pick just one it would probably be none of the above. It would be a single stack 9mm like a Ruger LC9. I am smitten with my revolvers but my G26 has been gaining ground.

Anyone remember the movie "The Gambler" with Kenny Rogers. When confronted by four guys with knives Brady Hawkes (Rogers) pulls out his derringer. One of the bad guys remarks that Hawkes only has two bullets and there are four of them. Hawkes replies, "The question is... which two of you are willing to take the bullets? So the other two can do the cutting."

Guess that's why mechanics have lots of tools. My J frame, in pocket carry, gets the most work. In jacket weather a 3" model 66 in .357 goes on the belt. Weddings, and 'suit' occasion gets a J frame in a ankle holster. Truck has a 12 gauge, with folding stock, or a AK folder. Right tool for the right job.
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Old 08-25-2011, 09:12   #192
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My last post was in May but, things haven't changed much. I have been carrying Two or Three Snubs most of the summer. 617 Taurus, SP101 Ruger, LCR357, 442 S&W. Today I think I'm going with the SP101, LCR357, and just for grins the 442 in my back pocket. Reloads for all. What are you talk'en about? under gunned?
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Old 08-25-2011, 14:04   #193
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My last post was in May but, things haven't changed much. I have been carrying Two or Three Snubs most of the summer. 617 Taurus, SP101 Ruger, LCR357, 442 S&W. Today I think I'm going with the SP101, LCR357, and just for grins the 442 in my back pocket. Reloads for all. What are you talk'en about? under gunned?
NOT under-gunned.
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Old 08-26-2011, 10:21   #194
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I just recently traded for a KLCR-357 and I love that gun. I quit carrying my G26, and just carry the Ruger now. I carry 2 speedloaders in a HKS medium holder.
I don't feel a bit under-gunned with the 357. I don't see any difference carrying it from the Glock. I would double-tap with 9mm, even with the JHP's that I was carrying. I wouldn't think that 2 shots would be necessary with my Federal 125gr JHP's in 357. They are the best one-shot stoppers for handguns, according to actual shootings data.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

The Ruger also conceals better and easier than the G26.
I guess that I need to figure out how to conceal carry my 32 pound 50BMG, so some people here think I have enough fire power.lol
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Old 10-16-2011, 12:16   #195
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Sure I do, but I'd rather be under gunned than non-gunned.

Sometimes a J-frame Smith is the best you can manage to conceal.

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Old 10-16-2011, 14:25   #196
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Sure I do, but I'd rather be under gunned than non-gunned. Sometimes a J-frame Smith is the best you can manage to conceal.
I recently up gunned from .38+P to .357, because of concern for velocity lost from the very short barrel. Even fired from a little 11 oz J-frame, I can live with the flash, blast, and recoil if that will save my life! Best pocket carry guns I have found....

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Old 11-26-2011, 19:26   #197
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Update to my snubbie feelings....regarding feeling undergunned...

Now I am carrying my S&W 66 snub, and/or my new S&W 340 M&P no lock: I most definitely DO NOT feel undergunned!

I am back to all revolver for ccw weapons...and couldn't be happier.

When "breaking in" my 340 snub today...I remembered just how easy revolvers are. No failures of any kind, no wondering if the ammo nose profile would feed in my feedramp, no stovepipe or FTF....

Just point and shoot. bang.

The shape of revolvers works better for concealment for me too....
hides just behind my hip, and does not print.

Old school is working for me!
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:18   #198
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I like snubbies and feel confident with a 642 in most situations. It seems obvious that the outcome of a gunfight is less likely to be determined by magazine capacity than my who gets off the first effective shot. I feel that a snubnose offers the best chance of getting the first shot, even if you have to shoot through a pocket, and with practice it can be made likely that shot will be effective. Most of my practice recently has consisted of drawing and firing at a silhouette target at 3 yards--from the hip--a latter day version of quickdraw I suppose. With not a lot of practice I can keep well over 90 percent of my shots in center-mass doing this. Someone said "the first rule of gunfighting is have a gun." With a lightweight snubnose it's easy to always "have a gun." I also recognize the advantage of having more than 5 rounds available in some situations....a home invasion for instance where there is usually more than one bad guy. I keep an 8-shot .357 Nightguard in my nightstand and an 870 under the bed with that scenario in mind.
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Old 12-04-2011, 10:34   #199
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I like snubbies and feel confident with a 642 in most situations. It seems obvious that the outcome of a gunfight is less likely to be determined by magazine capacity than my who gets off the first effective shot. I feel that a snubnose offers the best chance of getting the first shot, even if you have to shoot through a pocket, and with practice it can be made likely that shot will be effective. Most of my practice recently has consisted of drawing and firing at a silhouette target at 3 yards--from the hip--a latter day version of quickdraw I suppose. With not a lot of practice I can keep well over 90 percent of my shots in center-mass doing this. Someone said "the first rule of gunfighting is have a gun." With a lightweight snubnose it's easy to always "have a gun." I also recognize the advantage of having more than 5 rounds available in some situations....a home invasion for instance where there is usually more than one bad guy. I keep an 8-shot .357 Nightguard in my nightstand and an 870 under the bed with that scenario in mind.
Not necessarily obvious. Multiple attacker scenario is a different thing than a one-on-one encounter.
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:01   #200
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It's all a balance when considering a small pocket sized gun.
For me, reliability is the most important, followed by having someting that is easy to use quickly.
I can benefit more from my 442 than comparable small autos of similar size and weight.
It always works, no matter how good my grip is.
I hit well with it, and quickly.
It shoots heavier 158gr bullets from 850- to over 1000fps.(Proven to work very well)
Since we're talking pocket guns ( not compact or full sized service weapons), I also like knowing that when I need my weapon, the cylinder will still be in battery because there is no button to be pushed or leaned on, causing it to fall out. It will work whether pressed against my adversary, or me.
If someone thinks an extra 2 rounds or supposed 'easier to shoot' auto pistol will get them over the hump when faced with a gang, enjoy your firepower advantage....I'll keep practicing with what I have.
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