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Old 07-04-2011, 19:37   #121
Dragoon44
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And I think Mr. D has a lot of the Lincoln cult quaking in their boots.
And I think that like most ardent neo confederate kool aid drinkers you are delusional. Mr. D is not even a historian he is a economist.

His central thesis is the claim that slavery was not the main issue of secession. The statements of the southern leaders before and during the war, their articles of secession, the speeches and letters of their secession commissioners, and the topic (slavery) of the presidential debates between Douglas and Lincoln prove that he is wrong.

Here is a debate Between Dilorenzo and Harry Jaffa one of the premier Lincoln scholars.

http://www.independent.org/events/tr....asp?eventID=9

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The book "War crimes against Southern Civilians" is largely a compliation of eyewitness accounts of the victims and offical records of the pillagers and war criminals. I'm sure thats all neo Confederate pap too?
No sounds more like modern Liberal pap that wants to insist that war be conducted like a police action instead of war.

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How the Southern dead were disenterned and robbed of their jewelry? Black slaves and white housewives raped into insanity? Old, sick, children, infants, and infirm turned out into the winter while their homes burned behind them? What are you afraid of? Truth? Others are, shall we say, more curious?
OMG, bad things happened during a war, who would have thought???




And the Yankees were not the only ones rampaging, Confederate deserters where causing a huge problem and doing a great deal of damge to southern citizens themselves. And we have no less an authority on this than Robert E. Lee himself.

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In a Letter to Davis on Sept 13, 1862 Lee stated that 1/2 to 1/2 of his army never entered Maryland at all.

He also stated that a great deal of damage was being caused by the deserters, stating, "A great deal of damage done to citizens by the deserters taking all the food from the charitable and taking by force from the defenseless, wantonly destroying stock and property."

Another letter from Lee to Davis, July 27, 1863 After Gettysburg. " "there are many thousands of men improperly absent from this army."
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Old 07-04-2011, 20:03   #122
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Governor Stockdale....Those people choose, for whatever reason I know not, to hold me as a representve Southerner; hence, I know they watch my words and...what I say would be caught up by their speakers and newspapers, and magnified into a pretext to adding to the load of oppression they have placed on our poor people; and God knows, that load is heavy enough now...Governor; if I had forseen the the use those people designed to make of their victory there would have been no surrender at Appomattox Courthouse; no, sir, not by me. Had I forseen the results of subjugation, I would have preferred to die at Appomattox with my brave men, my sword in this right hand."
No authoritative Biography of Lee includes this because it is highly disputed since it was based on hearsay and not actual first hand account.

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General Robert E. Lee to then Governor Stockdale of Texas, 1870
More evidence of your historical illiteracy and the fact you do not check your facts. FS Stockdale was elected Lt. Governor in 1863. He was Governor from May 1865 until August of 1865.

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We asked to be left in peace. To go in peace.
The South did not go in peace, they were the beliegerents, they were the ones threatening war and committing acts of war in seizing the Legal property of the Union and firing on Union Ships and forts.
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Old 07-04-2011, 22:09   #123
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Slavery "worked" to concentrate wealth among a new American aristocracy. It "worked" to tie future hopes to the land, turning away from modernization and industy. In order for it to "work" it had to provide disproportionate political power to those landed few, shutting down proper representation for the people in the nation as a whole. So yeah, if you aspire to the gentry caste, I can see it "working" and can see why you'd advocate for it. Except....
And that is precisely the kind of society the South had and the elite wanted to keep.

A few quotes Southern "thinkers" of the time.

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George Fitzhugh


His idea to rectify social inequality created by capitalism was to institute a system of universal slavery, based on his belief that "nineteen out of every twenty individuals have...a natural and inalienable right to be slaves."


South Carolinian Thomas Cooper. Individuals, he argued, only have such rights and liberties as society wishes to give them. And in a healthy society, true liberty will be restricted to a relative few.
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:46   #124
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Originally Posted by Gray_Rider View Post
.... if I had forseen the the use those people designed to make of their victory there would have been no surrender at Appomattox Courthouse; no, sir, not by me. Had I forseen the results of subjugation, I would have preferred to die at Appomattox with my brave men, my sword in this right hand."

General Robert E. Lee "

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If this account is true, not just more "noble Robert E Lee" myth making, it is likely a post war covering up by Lee. He was part of a group of southern aristocrats that led the south, his people, into a total disaster. I'm not sure if it is evidence of guilt for sending 100s of thousands of southern men to their death or crippling for no good reason, and destroying the economy of that region.

It seems ridiculous that he expected to be treated as just another old guy when so many of his countrymen wanted him executed for treason. That may not have been the law; but that was what many thought.

He had the chance to die for his cause, as some other confederate generals did, but he declined.
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Old 07-22-2011, 20:33   #125
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I say again. Just read the books.....Quote or paraphrase from any of them and dispute them. Dispute for me Lincoln's rape of the Constutition. The arrest of thousands without trial or conviction. The unconstutitional formation of the state of West Virginia. The loss of thousands of votes from hostile Western Virginia counties.The smashing of printing presses by Union troops the intimadation of citizens at the ballot places by Union troops....ohh theres that Neo Confederate pap again...Dispute the book "The Unpopular Mr. Lincoln" Larry Tagg, and the dozens of offical records and direct quoted from NORTHERN neswpapers that he shut down or destroyed with Union bully boys.

I'm still waiting.

I still see only selective vindictiveness and and selective indignation about slavery. Union war crimes, even against free and slave blacks? Not to mention against defenseless women, children and the infirm? Pfffft! All Neo Confederate pap. We got in our time machines and wrote the diary entrys and the offical reports. Dang! You found us out!


And the wait goes on.

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Old 07-22-2011, 21:28   #126
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Originally Posted by RichardB View Post

He had the chance to die for his cause, as some other confederate generals did, but he declined.
Read the books. Dispute them line by line. Any of them. Pick one. Dispute for me Jefferson Davis' Farewell Address to the Senate. Dispute for me his 1st and 2nd Inaugural Address. Dispute for me how the colonies acted as independent states before and after the Revolutionary War. Each state knew they could leave the "union" of other colonies and states at will.

Heres another reference to check out. (Not that you won't dismiss it unseen out of hand, but others won't) Southern History Series Volume l & ll other pamphlets and DVDs are available. There is one talk given over completely to "Secession and the Law of God".
Historical Presentations by Edward R. De Vries, Th.D.

c/o P.O. Box 618 Lowell Fla. Dr.DeVries@bibleschool.edu



Seems to me on at least one occasion towards the end of the war Lee had to be restrained by his men from leading the attack personally. They took hold of Travelers reins and forced him back to safety. (Ohhh dear that is probably a Southern Myth too! Funny how anything I offer is a myth or a falsehood, and damn the references offered; they being lies too and lies told by other liars) As a sidelight, Jackson, Longstreet, JEB Stewart, Cleburne, et al were often in the hottest parts of the battle. Dozens of those brave men died for their bravery. There were no treason trials because they knew it wouldn't stick. Thousands of Confederate soldiers would have taken to the hills and the fighting could have went on for decades. At a word from Lee they would have; Grant and Sherman feared that worse than anything. Read the books. See the History Channel's "Lee and Grant", if you don't wish to look it up for yourself. (Ohhh poop! They probably are lying about lots of historical facts too)

I'll be waiting.

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Old 07-23-2011, 10:06   #127
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"Seems to me on at least one occasion towards the end of the war Lee had to be restrained by his men from leading the attack personally. They took hold of Travelers reins and forced him back to safety. "

Then Lee was no longer the boss.
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Old 07-23-2011, 15:31   #128
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Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Lee surrended. The CSA went **** up after the revolt failed. The CSA never achieved diplomatic recognition from anyone. The CSA never was a legitimate country. It is dead in the water. Too bad for the CSA.
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Old 07-23-2011, 16:37   #129
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Originally Posted by RichardB View Post
"Seems to me on at least one occasion towards the end of the war Lee had to be restrained by his men from leading the attack personally. They took hold of Travelers reins and forced him back to safety. "

Then Lee was no longer the boss.
That is what I was thinking.
or
It was all a ploy. In an effort to appear honorable, he didn't really want to go to the front and had someone setup to redirect him so as to not have to go.


Then again I always had respect for Lee and assume the above episode was made up by southerns after the war.
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Old 08-09-2011, 22:21   #130
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Yes. Too bad for our Constutitonal Republic. It went **** up after the "rebellion" also. If you think Lee wasn't the "boss" before, during, and after the above mentioned incident, you need to check your history.

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Old 08-11-2011, 08:42   #131
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Subordinates provide information, proposals, and opinions to commanders. I have difficulty imagining other American warriors such as a General Custer, Colonel Theodore Roosevelt, the WWI General Douglas MacArthur, General George Patton, General Joseph Stillwell, General Creighton Abrams and others after making a decision to get closer to the foe being restrained by over solicitous lackeys. This does not exclude ”inspirational theatrics” used as motivators at crunch time. Perhaps in the incident cited, Lee used some theater arts training, he had no real intention to lead the charge; otherwise he was weaker or more indecisive at times than he would have liked posterity to remember. We will probably never know.
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