GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-03-2011, 05:50   #101
Natty
Senior Member
 
Natty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maryland/Virginia
Posts: 4,072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogey View Post
It was TURNED into slavery.

Not what it was about at all to begin with.
Agreed.

First the Union said they were fighting to save the Union.

After the number of dead and wounded Union soldiers started to reach unbearable numbers, into the hundreds of thousands...

They then had come up with something more compelling to justify what they were really fighting for.

So they changed it to fighting to free the slaves.
Natty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2011, 06:31   #102
Natty
Senior Member
 
Natty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maryland/Virginia
Posts: 4,072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
You know, revisionist history is one thing, but you far exceed even that label. NJ outlawed slavery in 1810. The youngest slave possible in NJ would have been in his late 50s, well beyond the life expectancy of people in that day and age. Besides which, the 1860 census shows that there was a grand total of 0 slaves in the state. I know this has been pointed out to you before. So your claim that the state "didn't want to give them up" can only be seen as a lie.

For your Ft. Sumter claim, its significant that you use the weasle word "proven". The Union, in remarkable mercy for that day and age, chose to not pursue charges of treason against anyone. Even so, it's trivial to prove that firing on a US installation and US soldiers is a criminal act.


Edit: fixed it on checking. There were a mere 256 slaves in NJ in the 1850 census and absolutely no slaves at all listed in NJ in the 1860 census. Here, from a pro-secesh site: http://www.sonofthesouth.net/slavery...ave-census.htm
This is simply not true. In 1860 New Jersey still had 18 slaves. But they changed the name of their slaves to "apprentices for life" to make everyone feel better.

http://www.slavenorth.com/newjersey.htm
Natty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2011, 08:54   #103
Sam Spade
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
Sam Spade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 20,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natty View Post
This is simply not true. In 1860 New Jersey still had 18 slaves. But they changed the name of their slaves to "apprentices for life" to make everyone feel better.

http://www.slavenorth.com/newjersey.htm
Fine, we'll use your numbers for discussion.

Are you really going to sit there and claim that the entire state of NJ voted against the 13th because "They still had slaves and did not want to give them up"? Really? The need to hang onto 18 aging, irreplaceable slaves, sure to be dead in another 20 years, tops, was so important that the entire state voted to protect those few owners? The state of NJ was okay with banning the import of slaves in 1786, was okay with freeing those born to slave parents after 1810, but those 18 souls stopped Emancipation in its tracks because "They still had slaves and did not want to give them up?"

This is a ridiculous claim and deserves to be ridiculed. Thinking back, it's the silliest claim you've ever made about slavery and the war, and that's saying something.
__________________
"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle

Last edited by Sam Spade; 07-03-2011 at 08:56..
Sam Spade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2011, 09:01   #104
Dragoon44
Lifetime Membership
Unfair Facist
 
Dragoon44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 24,161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natty View Post
"Whenever any form of government is destructive of these ends [life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness] it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government in such form as to them shall seem most likely to affect their safety and happiness.

-- Declaration of Independence, 1776.
And by the people, they meant the people as a whole, not one subdivision of them.

The First 7 states to secede did so simply on the fact that Lincoln was elected president. They could claim no grievous injury or oppression at his hands since the seceded even before he even took office.

President Buchanan addressed this very issue.

“In order to justify a resort to revolutionary resistance, the Federal Government must be guilty of ‘a deliberate, palpable, and dangerous exercise’ of powers not granted by the Constitution. The late Presidential election, however, has been held in strict conformity with its express provisions. How, then, can the result justify a revolution to destroy this very Constitution? Reason, justice, a regard for the Constitution, all require that we shall wait for some overt and dangerous act on the part of the President elect before resorting to such a remedy.” (Taken from Buchanan’s Fourth Annual Message to Congress, December, 1860.)

Quote:
In order to justify secession as a constitutional remedy, it must be on the principle that the Federal Government is a mere voluntary association of States, to be dissolved at pleasure by any one of the contracting parties. If this be so, the confederacy is a rope of sand, to be penetrated and dissolved by the first adverse wave of public opinion in any of the States. In this manner our thirty-three States may resolve themselves into as many petty, jarring, and hostile republics, each one retiring from the Union without responsibility whenever any sudden excitement might impel them to such a course. By this process a Union might be entirely broken into fragments in a few weeks which cost our forefathers many years of toil, privation, and blood to establish.

Such a principle is wholly inconsistent with the history as well as the character of the Federal Constitution. After it was framed with the greatest deliberation and care it was submitted to conventions of the people of the several States for ratification. Its provisions were discussed at length in these bodies composed of the first men of the country. Its opponents contended that it conferred powers upon the Federal Government dangerous to the rights of the States, whilst its advocates maintained that under a fair construction of the instrument there was no foundation for such apprehensions. In that mighty struggle between the first intellects of this or any other country it never occurred to any individual, either among its opponents or advocates, to assert or even to intimate that their efforts were all vain labor, because the moment that any State felt herself aggrieved she might secede from the Union. What a crushing argument would this have proved against those who dreaded that the rights of the States would be endangered by the Constitution! The truth is that it was not until many years after the origin of the Federal Government that such a proposition was first advanced. It was then met and refuted by the conclusive arguments of General Jackson, who in his message of the 16th of January, 1833, transmitting the nullifying ordinance of South Carolina to Congress, employs the following language:

"The right of the people of a single State to absolve themselves at will and without the consent of the other States from their most solemn obligations, and hazard the liberties and happiness of the millions composing the Union, can not be acknowledged. Such authority is believed to be utterly repugnant troth to the principles upon which the General Government is constituted and to the objects which it is expressly formed to attain."
[end quote] [4th Annual Message to Congress, 3 Dec 1859]
__________________
“Right is still right, even if nobody is doing it. And wrong is still wrong, even if everybody is doing it.”—Texas Ranger saying.
Dragoon44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2011, 09:11   #105
Sam Spade
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
Sam Spade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 20,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natty View Post
"Whenever any form of government is destructive of these ends [life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness] it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government in such form as to them shall seem most likely to affect their safety and happiness.

-- Declaration of Independence, 1776.
The means to alter our Perpetual Union were given: the amendment process. The means to abolish the Perpetual Union were also given: the Constitutional Convention. The South refused peaceful, legal means and appealed to force of arms. They made war on their nation, and that's the definition of treason.

After the rebellion failed, the guys on the ground chose mercy as the more healing approach, but that decision wasn't unanimous. They got forgiveness, not vindication.
__________________
"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle
Sam Spade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2011, 11:13   #106
Dragoon44
Lifetime Membership
Unfair Facist
 
Dragoon44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 24,161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natty View Post
Agreed.

First the Union said they were fighting to save the Union.

After the number of dead and wounded Union soldiers started to reach unbearable numbers, into the hundreds of thousands...

They then had come up with something more compelling to justify what they were really fighting for.

So they changed it to fighting to free the slaves.
Neo confederates can't seem to get their stories straight. You claim that the "fight to end slavery" rallied the nation while Grey rider claims the emancipation proclamation caused riots in the North and had union states threatening to secede.

__________________
“Right is still right, even if nobody is doing it. And wrong is still wrong, even if everybody is doing it.”—Texas Ranger saying.
Dragoon44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2011, 11:15   #107
Dragoon44
Lifetime Membership
Unfair Facist
 
Dragoon44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 24,161
Quote:
After the rebellion failed, the guys on the ground chose mercy as the more healing approach, but that decision wasn't unanimous. They got forgiveness, not vindication.
And the loser chose to reinvent themselves and their cause, creating the Myth of the "lost cause" claiming they were fighting for freedom and liberty instead of fighting to deny freedom and liberty to millions of people born in the U.S.
__________________
“Right is still right, even if nobody is doing it. And wrong is still wrong, even if everybody is doing it.”—Texas Ranger saying.
Dragoon44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2011, 21:02   #108
Gray_Rider
Senior Member
 
Gray_Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Jacksonville Fla.
Posts: 1,434
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
Neo confederates can't seem to get their stories straight. Grey rider claims the emancipation proclamation caused riots in the North and had union states threatening to secede.
We can't get our stories straight? I claim the emancipation proclamation caused riots? You choose to ignore facts Dragoon.

Read up on the 1863 draft riots. For four days, July 13th to July 16th New York riots destroyed millions of dollars of property and hundreds were killed by the rioters and federal troops, late of the battle of Gettysburg, who fired point blank on the rioters. It was only the largest anti government insurgency in United States history, and took a massive use of deadly force against Northern people to put down.


"Dictator is what the Oppositon press and orators of all sizes are calling him...There is no telling how many editors and penmen have..assured him that this is a war for the Union only, and they never gave him any authority to to run it as an Abolition war....They never, never told him that he might set the negros free....that his venomous blow at the at the sacred liberty of white men to own black men is mere (empty threat) and a dead letter that will not work... the hosts of the Union will disband rather than be sacrificed upon the bloody altar of fanatical Abolitionsim."

William O. Stoddard Secretary in charge of Lincoln's mail.

Yes, the war was all about ending slavery. And this was from Northern newspapers and citizens. Lincoln had hundreds arrested and held w/o trial. Dozens of Northern news papers were denied the use of the mails or were destroyed by Federal troops because they spoke out about his rape of the Constutition and dictatorial misuse of power. Just more neo Confederate crap that we conjured up 150 years after the fact I suppose?



Gray_Rider
Deo Vindice!

Last edited by Gray_Rider; 07-03-2011 at 21:13..
Gray_Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2011, 21:40   #109
Gray_Rider
Senior Member
 
Gray_Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Jacksonville Fla.
Posts: 1,434
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
The means to alter our Perpetual Union were given: the amendment process. The means to abolish the Perpetual Union were also given: the Constitutional Convention. The South refused peaceful, legal means and appealed to force of arms. They made war on their nation, and that's the definition of treason.

After the rebellion failed, the guys on the ground chose mercy as the more healing approach, but that decision wasn't unanimous. They got forgiveness, not vindication.
Maybe they knew they couldn't prove treason in a court of law as Jefferson Davis himself suggested? He wanted his chance in court to prove his case after the war. Maybe?


Refused peacefull, legal means!!?? Lincoln refused every peace entreaty the Confederacy made and would not meet with them once! He then sent troops to reenforce Fort Sumter on the sly and called for 75,000 troops, threatening all out war if we didn't comply. We fired on the Fort to force its surrender, (after we offered them a chance to surrender) and we were invaded in early June in Western Virginia by Federal troops at the battle of Philippi.

Study up on the rape of the Constutition by Lincoln and his minions. How he locked up the innocent w/o trial. Started a war w/o Congress' approval. He sent Union troops to the polling sites to to humble and frighten off Democrat voters. Carved a new state out of the property of Virginia against the Constitutition.


We were the traitors?


*Read the books I have suggested. I have yet to see the facts therein refuted by anyone here. If its all Neo Confederate crap, refute the facts these books point out.


I'm still waiting.

Gray_Rider
Deo Vindice!
Gray_Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2011, 22:13   #110
Dragoon44
Lifetime Membership
Unfair Facist
 
Dragoon44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 24,161
Quote:
We can't get our stories straight? I claim the emancipation proclamation caused riots? You choose to ignore facts Dragoon.
No I simply recognize that you and Natty are not on the same page. He claims turning the war into a war to free the salves united the North, you say it divided the North. You obviously cannot BOTH be right.

Quote:
Read up on the 1863 draft riots. For four days, July 13th to July 16th New York riots destroyed millions of dollars of property and hundreds were killed by the rioters and federal troops, late of the battle of Gettysburg, who fired point blank on the rioters. It was only the largest anti government insurgency in United States history, and took a massive use of deadly force against Northern people to put down.
No, the souths illegal secession by force of arms was the largest anti government insurrection in the history of the United States.


Quote:
Yes, the war was all about ending slavery.
Let me see if I understand you correctly, You are presenting the response of newspapers to the emancipation proclamation in 1863 as evidence that the war was about ending slavery though the war started in 1861 is that right?

Quote:
Lincoln had hundreds arrested and held w/o trial. Dozens of Northern news papers were denied the use of the mails or were destroyed by Federal troops because they spoke out about his rape of the Constutition and dictatorial misuse of power. Just more neo Confederate crap that we conjured up 150 years after the fact I suppose?
No one has claimed those things didn't happen, but I will point out they had absolutely NOTHING to do with why the south seceded or why the South started the war.

And while we are at it we might mention that Jefferson Davis suspended Habeus Corpus as well. Guess that made him a dictator huh?

And long before the War southern states were intercepting and destroying abolitionist material entering their states thru the mails.

in 1836 the "slave power" which dominated the House of representatives due to the slavers "property being counted for purposes of state representation in the House of Representative passed the "gag Rule" which forbid any debate, or any resolutions, etc on slavery.

Quote:
says: "All petitions, memorials, resolutions, propositions, or papers, relating in any way, or to any extent whatsoever, to the subject of slavery or the abolition of slavery, shall, without being either printed or referred, be laid on the table and that no further action whatever shall be had thereon."
John Adams fought against it as a violation of Constitutional rights.

Virginia had a law on the books that made it a criminal offense to say that a slave owner did not have a property right in his slaves.
__________________
“Right is still right, even if nobody is doing it. And wrong is still wrong, even if everybody is doing it.”—Texas Ranger saying.
Dragoon44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2011, 22:16   #111
Dragoon44
Lifetime Membership
Unfair Facist
 
Dragoon44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 24,161
Quote:
We were the traitors?


*Read the books I have suggested. I have yet to see the facts therein refuted by anyone here. If its all Neo Confederate crap, refute the facts these books point out.
you keep regurgitating this BS post the "Facts" you claim have not been refuted and I am sure Sam or I will be happy to discuss them. I for one am not going to by a book by a Neo Confederate just to read it and critique it.
__________________
“Right is still right, even if nobody is doing it. And wrong is still wrong, even if everybody is doing it.”—Texas Ranger saying.
Dragoon44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2011, 22:33   #112
Sam Spade
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
Sam Spade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 20,770
Grey, you think DiLorenzo is a credible source. That alone disinclines me from following any of your other bunny trails. Sorry, he's the Radley Balko of Civil War writing.
__________________
"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle
Sam Spade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2011, 22:41   #113
Gray_Rider
Senior Member
 
Gray_Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Jacksonville Fla.
Posts: 1,434
Blog Entries: 1
Slavery still worked when nothing else did in 1700's America, and we are STILL kissing the rumps and licking the sandals of the greatest slave dealers-buyers-makers in the last 1500 years. You hate slave holders dead and gone that lost their slaves forever 150 years ago but the most powerfull nation on earth licks the boots of modern day slavers and murderers while our government forces us to sit on billions of barrels of our own oil.

All I see here is white guilt and selective indignation. This wouldn't be happening today in the South (and probably the North) had we won. And. I think you know it. Funny how slavery ended everywhere else, but would have continued in the South. I don't see you condeming the North Koreans or Chinas use of REAL SLAVERY either come to think of it.

If the South "lost" and the slaves "freed" whats all the fuss over her flag about? Who should care where it flies or why if the Confederacy is a moot point and a 'defeated nation'? I think the truth about the war is gaining a foothold and you know it. If not what are you Confederate haters afraid of? Limited government? Lower taxes? Thats also what we fought for....and what your victory cost this nation, and ours.

Gray_Rider
Deo Vindice!
Gray_Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2011, 23:08   #114
Gray_Rider
Senior Member
 
Gray_Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Jacksonville Fla.
Posts: 1,434
Blog Entries: 1
Others are not so closed minded. And I think Mr. D has a lot of the Lincoln cult quaking in their boots. The other books? One, "War for What?" was written decades before the others I have mentioned. The book "War crimes against Southern Civilians" is largely a compliation of eyewitness accounts of the victims and offical records of the pillagers and war criminals. I'm sure thats all neo Confederate pap too? How the Southern dead were disenterned and robbed of their jewelry? Black slaves and white housewives raped into insanity? Old, sick, children, infants, and infirm turned out into the winter while their homes burned behind them? What are you afraid of? Truth? Others are, shall we say, more curious?

Gray_Rider
Deo Vindice!
Gray_Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 14:48   #115
dherloc
X-Nuc
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,249
Grey,

Pretty sure what you are describing is total war. Happens in every war that has happend throughout history.

Don't get involved in a war and it doesn't happen. Or win it...thats an option too.
__________________
USN 87-93
CVN-71
Ex-Nuc RO
dherloc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 15:27   #116
Gray_Rider
Senior Member
 
Gray_Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Jacksonville Fla.
Posts: 1,434
Blog Entries: 1
We asked to be left in peace. To go in peace. Read the books. What are you afraid of? The truth? Of course you won't follow up. I never expect you to. Easier that way.

But many, many others will. Tens of thousands already have. And thats my point of the many posts. And thats what you and the others are afraid of. People reading the facts and making up their own mind. Thats all I asked of you and or any others. Quite the crime isn't it? I still see only white guilt and selective indignation.

I ask again? What are you afraid of?

Gray_Rider


"I have heard. You are the gray rider. You would not make peace with the bluecoats. You may go in peace."

"We hoist on high the Bonny Blue flag..."

"We could have pursued no other course without dishonor. And sad as the results have been, if it had to be done again, we should be compelled to act in precisely the same manner"

General Robert E. Lee
Gray_Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 15:50   #117
Gray_Rider
Senior Member
 
Gray_Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Jacksonville Fla.
Posts: 1,434
Blog Entries: 1
Governor Stockdale....Those people choose, for whatever reason I know not, to hold me as a representve Southerner; hence, I know they watch my words and...what I say would be caught up by their speakers and newspapers, and magnified into a pretext to adding to the load of oppression they have placed on our poor people; and God knows, that load is heavy enough now...Governor; if I had forseen the the use those people designed to make of their victory there would have been no surrender at Appomattox Courthouse; no, sir, not by me. Had I forseen the results of subjugation, I would have preferred to die at Appomattox with my brave men, my sword in this right hand."

General Robert E. Lee to then Governor Stockdale of Texas, 1870

"I am with the South in life or in death, in victory or in defeat....I believe the North is about to wage a brutal and unholy war on a people who have done them no wrong, in violation of the Constitution and the fundamental principles of government."

General Patrick Cleburne CSA

Gray_Rider
Deo Vindice!
Gray_Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 15:54   #118
RWBlue
CLM Number 120
Mr. CISSP, CISA
 
RWBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray_Rider View Post
If the South "lost" and the slaves "freed" whats all the fuss over her flag about? Who should care where it flies or why if the Confederacy is a moot point and a 'defeated nation'? I think the truth about the war is gaining a foothold and you know it. If not what are you Confederate haters afraid of?
Hmm, It is kind of like NAZI Flags flying in Germany. A reminder of a nation that stood for something that others stood to put down because it was wrong.

And even if it wasn't for what happened in the war, how it was used after the war (Klan) ....
__________________
One day, I shall come back. Yes, I shall come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.
RWBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 19:20   #119
Dragoon44
Lifetime Membership
Unfair Facist
 
Dragoon44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 24,161
Quote:
All I see here is white guilt and selective indignation. This wouldn't be happening today in the South (and probably the North) had we won. And. I think you know it. Funny how slavery ended everywhere else, but would have continued in the South. I don't see you condeming the North Koreans or Chinas use of REAL SLAVERY either come to think of it.
More of your red herrings, when you can't answer or refute you start whining about slavery elsewhere. But this thread is not about slavery in General it is about the AMERICAN civil war, and what brought it about.

Quote:
If the South "lost" and the slaves "freed" whats all the fuss over her flag about? Who should care where it flies or why if the Confederacy is a moot point and a 'defeated nation'?
The dispute is over what the confederate flag actually stands for, to some that have swallowed the neo confederate kool aid it stands for "states rights" and "freedom and liberty". To those that have not swallowed the "lost cause myth" it stands for treason and insurrection, and a society that believed it had the right to own other human beings denying them the "Liberty and freedom" that they afterwards claimed they were fighting for. And that they started the war not only to preserve slavery in their own states but to expand it.

Quote:
I think the truth about the war is gaining a foothold and you know it. If not what are you Confederate haters afraid of? Limited government? Lower taxes? Thats also what we fought for....and what your victory cost this nation, and ours.
I challenge you to provide your evidence that the confederacy fought for limited Govt. and lower taxes. In ANY statement by Southern leaders concerning their secession BEFORE the war. Their leaders statements, articles of secession and the speeches of the secession commissioner's speak loud and clear as to why the south seceded. And in them there is not ONE WORD about lower taxes or more limited Govt.

THe South was not the least bit interested in Limited Govt. When they controlled the Govt. they were the best friend of centralized federal power.

In the revision of the "fugitive slave act" of 1850 they demanded and got the greatest expansion of Federal power in the History of the union that was unmatched until Roosevelt's "New deal". they demanded and got the Federal police power to be employed nationwide to protect their "property rights in slaves.

IN the Confederate constitution they denied member states to decide the issue of slavery for themselves, they also denied states the right of trading between themselves without the central govts. approval.

When in the union they declared the central govt had no right to interfere in the issue of slavery within the states. When they formed the confederacy they declared no state had the right to interfere with the central govts protection of slavery.
__________________
“Right is still right, even if nobody is doing it. And wrong is still wrong, even if everybody is doing it.”—Texas Ranger saying.
Dragoon44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 19:22   #120
Sam Spade
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
Sam Spade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 20,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray_Rider View Post
Slavery still worked when nothing else did in 1700's America,...
You keep saying that. Anyone thinking critically has to ask, "Worked at what, exactly?"

Slavery "worked" to concentrate wealth among a new American aristocracy. It "worked" to tie future hopes to the land, turning away from modernization and industy. In order for it to "work" it had to provide disproportionate political power to those landed few, shutting down proper representation for the people in the nation as a whole. So yeah, if you aspire to the gentry caste, I can see it "working" and can see why you'd advocate for it. Except....

Except that those things weren't the purpose of our nation's founding. The nation was founded to secure our rights, using just power granted by the governed. "Our rights" mean the rights of all men, not merely the new aristocrats nor even all white men. Those were the rights granted us by our Creator, and the field n****r did not stem from a different God, and was not out there with the mark of Ham.

So, no sir. Slavery did not "work", not when you measure it against what this country was intended for.
__________________
"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle
Sam Spade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 19:37   #121
Dragoon44
Lifetime Membership
Unfair Facist
 
Dragoon44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 24,161
Quote:
And I think Mr. D has a lot of the Lincoln cult quaking in their boots.
And I think that like most ardent neo confederate kool aid drinkers you are delusional. Mr. D is not even a historian he is a economist.

His central thesis is the claim that slavery was not the main issue of secession. The statements of the southern leaders before and during the war, their articles of secession, the speeches and letters of their secession commissioners, and the topic (slavery) of the presidential debates between Douglas and Lincoln prove that he is wrong.

Here is a debate Between Dilorenzo and Harry Jaffa one of the premier Lincoln scholars.

http://www.independent.org/events/tr....asp?eventID=9

Quote:
The book "War crimes against Southern Civilians" is largely a compliation of eyewitness accounts of the victims and offical records of the pillagers and war criminals. I'm sure thats all neo Confederate pap too?
No sounds more like modern Liberal pap that wants to insist that war be conducted like a police action instead of war.

Quote:
How the Southern dead were disenterned and robbed of their jewelry? Black slaves and white housewives raped into insanity? Old, sick, children, infants, and infirm turned out into the winter while their homes burned behind them? What are you afraid of? Truth? Others are, shall we say, more curious?
OMG, bad things happened during a war, who would have thought???




And the Yankees were not the only ones rampaging, Confederate deserters where causing a huge problem and doing a great deal of damge to southern citizens themselves. And we have no less an authority on this than Robert E. Lee himself.

Quote:
In a Letter to Davis on Sept 13, 1862 Lee stated that 1/2 to 1/2 of his army never entered Maryland at all.

He also stated that a great deal of damage was being caused by the deserters, stating, "A great deal of damage done to citizens by the deserters taking all the food from the charitable and taking by force from the defenseless, wantonly destroying stock and property."

Another letter from Lee to Davis, July 27, 1863 After Gettysburg. " "there are many thousands of men improperly absent from this army."
__________________
“Right is still right, even if nobody is doing it. And wrong is still wrong, even if everybody is doing it.”—Texas Ranger saying.
Dragoon44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 20:03   #122
Dragoon44
Lifetime Membership
Unfair Facist
 
Dragoon44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 24,161
Quote:
Governor Stockdale....Those people choose, for whatever reason I know not, to hold me as a representve Southerner; hence, I know they watch my words and...what I say would be caught up by their speakers and newspapers, and magnified into a pretext to adding to the load of oppression they have placed on our poor people; and God knows, that load is heavy enough now...Governor; if I had forseen the the use those people designed to make of their victory there would have been no surrender at Appomattox Courthouse; no, sir, not by me. Had I forseen the results of subjugation, I would have preferred to die at Appomattox with my brave men, my sword in this right hand."
No authoritative Biography of Lee includes this because it is highly disputed since it was based on hearsay and not actual first hand account.

Quote:
General Robert E. Lee to then Governor Stockdale of Texas, 1870
More evidence of your historical illiteracy and the fact you do not check your facts. FS Stockdale was elected Lt. Governor in 1863. He was Governor from May 1865 until August of 1865.

Quote:
We asked to be left in peace. To go in peace.
The South did not go in peace, they were the beliegerents, they were the ones threatening war and committing acts of war in seizing the Legal property of the Union and firing on Union Ships and forts.
__________________
“Right is still right, even if nobody is doing it. And wrong is still wrong, even if everybody is doing it.”—Texas Ranger saying.
Dragoon44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 22:09   #123
Dragoon44
Lifetime Membership
Unfair Facist
 
Dragoon44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 24,161
Quote:
Slavery "worked" to concentrate wealth among a new American aristocracy. It "worked" to tie future hopes to the land, turning away from modernization and industy. In order for it to "work" it had to provide disproportionate political power to those landed few, shutting down proper representation for the people in the nation as a whole. So yeah, if you aspire to the gentry caste, I can see it "working" and can see why you'd advocate for it. Except....
And that is precisely the kind of society the South had and the elite wanted to keep.

A few quotes Southern "thinkers" of the time.

Quote:
George Fitzhugh


His idea to rectify social inequality created by capitalism was to institute a system of universal slavery, based on his belief that "nineteen out of every twenty individuals have...a natural and inalienable right to be slaves."


South Carolinian Thomas Cooper. Individuals, he argued, only have such rights and liberties as society wishes to give them. And in a healthy society, true liberty will be restricted to a relative few.
__________________
“Right is still right, even if nobody is doing it. And wrong is still wrong, even if everybody is doing it.”—Texas Ranger saying.
Dragoon44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2011, 11:46   #124
RichardB
Silver Membership
Senior Member
 
RichardB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 1,357
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray_Rider View Post
.... if I had forseen the the use those people designed to make of their victory there would have been no surrender at Appomattox Courthouse; no, sir, not by me. Had I forseen the results of subjugation, I would have preferred to die at Appomattox with my brave men, my sword in this right hand."

General Robert E. Lee "

Gray_Rider
Deo Vindice!
If this account is true, not just more "noble Robert E Lee" myth making, it is likely a post war covering up by Lee. He was part of a group of southern aristocrats that led the south, his people, into a total disaster. I'm not sure if it is evidence of guilt for sending 100s of thousands of southern men to their death or crippling for no good reason, and destroying the economy of that region.

It seems ridiculous that he expected to be treated as just another old guy when so many of his countrymen wanted him executed for treason. That may not have been the law; but that was what many thought.

He had the chance to die for his cause, as some other confederate generals did, but he declined.
__________________
Richard

“Food for thought is no substitute for the real thing”
RichardB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2011, 20:33   #125
Gray_Rider
Senior Member
 
Gray_Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Jacksonville Fla.
Posts: 1,434
Blog Entries: 1
I say again. Just read the books.....Quote or paraphrase from any of them and dispute them. Dispute for me Lincoln's rape of the Constutition. The arrest of thousands without trial or conviction. The unconstutitional formation of the state of West Virginia. The loss of thousands of votes from hostile Western Virginia counties.The smashing of printing presses by Union troops the intimadation of citizens at the ballot places by Union troops....ohh theres that Neo Confederate pap again...Dispute the book "The Unpopular Mr. Lincoln" Larry Tagg, and the dozens of offical records and direct quoted from NORTHERN neswpapers that he shut down or destroyed with Union bully boys.

I'm still waiting.

I still see only selective vindictiveness and and selective indignation about slavery. Union war crimes, even against free and slave blacks? Not to mention against defenseless women, children and the infirm? Pfffft! All Neo Confederate pap. We got in our time machines and wrote the diary entrys and the offical reports. Dang! You found us out!


And the wait goes on.

Gray_Rider
Deo Vindice!
Gray_Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 16:06.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,113
352 Members
761 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42