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Old 06-28-2011, 13:22   #61
RWBlue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natty View Post
The USA had slavery for 89 years.

The Confederate States of America had slavery for 4 years.

Not one slave ever came to the US on a Confederate ship.

They all came here on USA ships and European countries ships.

Many people, even so called 'historians', like to say that the Civil War ended slavery.

After the war was over there was still slavery in the Union/Northern states.

Owning slaves was legal and protected by the United States Supreme Court... Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393 (1857)

Abraham Lincoln married into a prominent slave owning family (Todds).

Lincoln's own family were slave owners (Mordecai Lincoln).

Lincoln, as a lawyer, went to court and argued to have a runaway female slave, and her children, returned to their slave owner. (Matson slave case).

Union General Ulysses S. Grant was a slave owner.
Union General Don Carlos Buell was a slave owner.

Martin Van Buren, the 8th President of the US, from New York, was a slave owner.

William Penn, famous Pennsylvanian was a slave owner.

Benjamin Franklin from Pennsylvania was a slave owner and slave trader.

Hero of the American Revolution, John Hancock from Massachusetts, was a slave owner and slave trader.

There was slavery in the North for 200 years, starting when they were colonies and lasting until after the Civil War was over.

Why didn't the Union states free their slaves before they invaded the South?
So you are saying slavery is good and my family should be able to reclaim our property?


Taking away someone's property is a difficult thing in a just legal system and legally slaves were property.

If the southern states has not broken from the USA, slavery would have continued for many years.
If the southern states had not fired the first shots, the civil war may not have been a shooting war.
If the south has continued on into Washington after the battle of Bull Run, the war could have been over in a couple months not years.
If, If, If, If....


The Civil war was fought over slavery (property) rights.
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Old 06-28-2011, 13:45   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike 7.62 View Post
This thread really did turn into the slavery debate... someone said it would, and I thought "no thats silly, that doesn't have anything to do with the article". Turns out I was wrong :/

Natty, my point is that "terrorism" is just a propaganda term. All combat is pretty terrorizing, no matter the conflict or the reasons for it.
What is the "propaganda term" that our Govt has our troops fighting and dying against in Iraq and Afghanistan?
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Old 06-28-2011, 13:50   #63
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Originally Posted by RWBlue View Post
So you are saying slavery is good and my family should be able to reclaim our property?
Read my post carefully. I never said slavery was good. Just that the US considered slavery legal.
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Old 06-28-2011, 13:55   #64
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Originally Posted by RWBlue View Post

The Civil war was fought over slavery (property) rights.
Why didn't the Union states free their slaves before they invaded the South?
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Old 06-28-2011, 14:17   #65
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Originally Posted by Natty View Post
What is the "propaganda term" that our Govt has our troops fighting and dying against in Iraq and Afghanistan?
I don't really understand what you're getting at. I'd ask you to re-phrase, but this is a LONG way off from discussing the ARTICLE posted in the OP. If you have something to discuss besides the article, please start your own thread. If I were a mod here I would be doing some serious fat-trimming from this thread.
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Old 06-28-2011, 14:18   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natty View Post
The USA had slavery for 89 years.

The Confederate States of America had slavery for 4 years.
That is disingenuous bs Natty. Just like every other time you have spouted that drivel. Every State that was part of the CSA had the peculiar institution of slavery for their entire existence as a state up to the point that the CSA was formed.
Quote:
Not one slave ever came to the US on a Confederate ship.
Slave importation was outlawed into the USA in 1808, decades before the CSA was formed.
Quote:
They all came here on USA ships and European countries ships.
The "They did it too" excuse. As noted above no slaves were brought into the USA from abroad after 1808.
Quote:
Many people, even so called 'historians', like to say that the Civil War ended slavery.
The 13th Amendment passed the Senate in April 1864, passed by the House in January 1865 and declared the law of the land in December 1865 as a direct result of the Southern States of the CSA not being able to block it while they were in open rebellion genius. Ergo, slavery was abolished as a direct result of the civil war.
Quote:
After the war was over there was still slavery in the Union/Northern states.
See above.
Quote:
Owning slaves was legal and protected by the United States Supreme Court... Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393 (1857)
So? It was still outlawed by the end of 1865.
Quote:
Abraham Lincoln married into a prominent slave owning family (Todds).
So what? He still declared the Emancipation Proclamation and agitated for passage of the 13th Amendment.
Quote:
Lincoln's own family were slave owners (Mordecai Lincoln).
I have a relative in prison for attempted murder and a cousin who grows pot. That does not mean that I grow pot, or that I ever tried to murder someone.
Quote:
Lincoln, as a lawyer, went to court and argued to have a runaway female slave, and her children, returned to their slave owner. (Matson slave case).
Attorneys have also been known to defend murderers in accordance with their 6th Amendment and Bar Association obligations. I presume that many do so without necessarily approving of murder.
Quote:
Union General Ulysses S. Grant was a slave owner.
Union General Don Carlos Buell was a slave owner.
And John Newton was a slave trader before having a epiphany and writing Amazing Grace and preaching against slavery.
Quote:
Martin Van Buren, the 8th President of the US, from New York, was a slave owner.
The "He did it too" defense.
Quote:
William Penn, famous Pennsylvanian was a slave owner.
"He did it too."
Quote:
Benjamin Franklin from Pennsylvania was a slave owner and slave trader.
"He did it too."
Quote:
Hero of the American Revolution, John Hancock from Massachusetts, was a slave owner and slave trader.
"He did it too."
Quote:
There was slavery in the North for 200 years, starting when they were colonies and lasting until after the Civil War was over.
As noted above the 13th Amendment passed the House and Senate before the war was over and was declared within 8 months of Lee's surrender as a direct result of the Civil War.
Quote:
Why didn't the Union states free their slaves before they invaded the South?
Probably because it was more pragmatic to tackle the CSA aggression at Fort Sumter head on instead of quibbling over the 13th Amendment in April 1861.
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Last edited by G26S239; 06-28-2011 at 14:58..
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Old 06-28-2011, 14:37   #67
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And this is why the OP was talking about "re enactments". You folks are STILL fighting the Civil War (oops, sorry, "the War of Northern Aggression"). STILL trying to justify slavery. The was was fought. You lost. Slavery is wrong now and it was wrong then. Admit it. Get over it. Move on. What is heaven's name is wrong with saying: "My ancestors were slave owners and fought a war to continue that. They were wrong!" The same is true of the attempts by "Christians" to justify slavery.
Peter.
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Old 06-28-2011, 15:05   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike 7.62 View Post
This thread really did turn into the slavery debate... someone said it would, and I thought "no thats silly, that doesn't have anything to do with the article". Turns out I was wrong :/
Didn't take Kreskin to see this thread would drift off topic and then go over a cliff.
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Old 06-28-2011, 15:07   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natty View Post
So where do the Yankees reenact Sherman's army going through the South?

Burning down barns, houses, towns, entire cities. Waging war upon civilians and kidnapping women, pillaging, looting, stealing everything they could get their hands on and destroying the rest.

This is what helped win Lincoln's war.

Now days we call it Terrorism.
I was waiting for you to troll this!
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Old 06-28-2011, 16:17   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natty View Post
Why didn't the Union states free their slaves before they invaded the South?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWBlue View Post
Taking away someone's property is a difficult thing in a just legal system and legally slaves were property.
If the Union had decided to stop slavery in the first days of the war, they would have lost MD. And the war wouldn't have been about bring the Union back together.

By waiting until the war was protracted, and ONLY freeing the confederate slaves, it was a political win and a military win.

You have to remember that Lincoln said he would not free the slaves if he was elected.

So the south preemptedly left the union before any wrong was done against them. Fired the first shot, starting the shooting war. And started committing acts of what would now be called terrorism first.

If they had waited, until Lincoln had tried to pass a law against slavery....
If they had waited until for the North to fire first....
If they have not gone into the north, ....
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Old 06-28-2011, 16:38   #71
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The person that wrote the article is obviously a Progressive.


For all you Pro-Union guys....I once was in your camp.

It was not until I started learning of historical sources outside of modern day educational institutions that a great deal of History had been re-written to fit an agenda.

We are living in a cruel world, and it's getting worse every day.
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Old 06-28-2011, 16:50   #72
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Originally Posted by G26S239 View Post
That is disingenuous bs Natty. Just like every other time you have spouted that drivel. Every State that was part of the CSA had the peculiar institution of slavery for their entire existence as a state up to the point that the CSA was formed.

Slave importation was outlawed into the USA in 1808, decades before the CSA was formed.

The "They did it too" excuse. As noted above no slaves were brought into the USA from abroad after 1808.
The 13th Amendment passed the Senate in April 1864, passed by the House in January 1865 and declared the law of the land in December 1865 as a direct result of the Southern States of the CSA not being able to block it while they were in open rebellion genius. Ergo, slavery was abolished as a direct result of the civil war.
See above.

So? It was still outlawed by the end of 1865.
So what? He still declared the Emancipation Proclamation and agitated for passage of the 13th Amendment.

I have a relative in prison for attempted murder and a cousin who grows pot. That does not mean that I grow pot, or that I ever tried to murder someone.
Attorneys have also been known to defend murderers in accordance with their 6th Amendment and Bar Association obligations. I presume that many do so without necessarily approving of murder.

And John Newton was a slave trader before having a epiphany and writing Amazing Grace and preaching against slavery.
The "He did it too" defense.
"He did it too."
"He did it too."
"He did it too."
As noted above the 13th Amendment passed the House and Senate before the war was over and was declared within 8 months of Lee's surrender as a direct result of the Civil War.
Probably because it was more pragmatic to tackle the CSA aggression at Fort Sumter head on instead of quibbling over the 13th Amendment in April 1861.
Excellent rebuttal. Thanks.
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Old 06-28-2011, 16:57   #73
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Originally Posted by Natty View Post
Why didn't the Union states free their slaves before they invaded the South?
Natty,

I'm going to post this once and then not post any more under this thread...

For 7 years, during my first stay in Missouri, I was a volunteer on the day before Memorial Day to post US Flags on the grave sites of Jefferson Baracks National Cemetary. I proudly placed the American flags on all military graves.

There were many Confederate graves that I also placed the flag on. They were Americans, too, and my brothers. I never thought of them as lesser folks because they fought for the Confederacy.
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Old 06-28-2011, 17:57   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogey View Post
The person that wrote the article is obviously a Progressive.


For all you Pro-Union guys....I once was in your camp.

It was not until I started learning of historical sources outside of modern day educational institutions that a great deal of History had been re-written to fit an agenda.

We are living in a cruel world, and it's getting worse every day.
Did you read Confederate states declarations of independence from the Union?
I think they made it very clear that the war was about Slavery.
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Old 06-28-2011, 18:38   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWBlue View Post
Did you read Confederate states declarations of independence from the Union?
I think they made it very clear that the war was about Slavery.
It was TURNED into slavery.

Not what it was about at all to begin with.

I lived almost the first half of my life believing everything that was spoon fed to me. I even lived in a part of the country that did nothing but denigrate the south....calling all southerners unrefined hicks. (paraphrased) It was as though it was a form of racism. Once I moved south, I couldn't quite figure out why much of what I was taught was incorrect. And the stereotypes dead wrong.

Having been in the South 32 years, I am proud to denounce my Yankee heritage and live amongst the dregs of the South.

You go right ahead and keep believing the war started over slavery. I'll cling to God, guns, and the truth.

It's not going to do any good to discuss this any further. I know how it will turn out.

Last edited by Bogey; 06-28-2011 at 18:39..
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Old 06-28-2011, 18:51   #76
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Slavery was inhuman and cruel beyond words, it was not a highlight of any history on this continent.

That being said it was not a solely "southern" institution by any means. It was a worldwide crime committed thru out history by all colors and creeds against their own and other colors and creeds.

Re-enacting the Civil War / War Between The States is not a endorsement on the merits of slavery IMO.
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Old 06-28-2011, 22:49   #77
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It was TURNED into slavery.

Not what it was about at all to begin with.
Now, that is where I disagree with you. South Carolina's declaration of independence (I know this is not the correct term, but I forget the correct term) specifically stated slavery as a reason. So did some of the other states.
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Old 06-28-2011, 23:22   #78
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Originally Posted by RWBlue View Post
Now, that is where I disagree with you. South Carolina's declaration of independence (I know this is not the correct term, but I forget the correct term) specifically stated slavery as a reason. So did some of the other states.
Here are the Declaration Of Causes Of Seceding States RWBlue. http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html Here is the Cornerstone Speech. Look at paragraph 9 in particular. http://teachingamericanhistory.org/l...cumentprint=76 The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. Alexander H. Stephens Vice President of the CSA March 21 1861.
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Old 06-28-2011, 23:53   #79
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Old 06-29-2011, 00:34   #80
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