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Old 06-16-2011, 13:39   #241
redneck1861
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Originally Posted by clancy View Post
Do you have any family members who served in the Armed Forces of the United States of America? If so, do you feel the same pride for those that fought for the freedom of all Americans as you feel for those who fought for the right to deny the freedom of some people and to hold them as property?

Do you ever fly the flag of the Untied States of America, or have a tattoo of such?

I do have an American flag tattoo, I said that I fly a Confederate Flag in front of my house everyday, since this is a thread about the Confederate flag. But since you asked, I do fly an American Flag higher than my Confederate Flag everyday.
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Old 06-16-2011, 13:51   #242
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How could that be? is not the confederate flag the symbol of the Confederacy?

What did the Confederacy stand for? Despite the revisionist history put forth by the Neo Confederates today who have swallowed the myth of the "Lost cause" started by the losing confederates right after the war The evidence of what the Confederacy stood for is plainly stated in the confederates own words before and during the war.

How much more racist can you get than to believe that by virtue of your own race you have the right to enslave someone of another race?

I dont want to argue why the civil war took place, or why the South left the Union.

I am proud of my herritage, and my ancestors that fought and died under that flag. They fought and died for what the believed in, whether it was right or wrong, they had the courage to fight for what they wanted.

Times are different today than in the mid 1800's. I think most people will agree that slavery was wrong, and that all men are equal. But back then it was not the case.

I dont agree with reason the war was fought, but I am proud that the brave men fought for what they believed was right. Hell alot of the South didnt even have guns, farmers were out fighting with whatever they had.
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Old 06-16-2011, 14:20   #243
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I dont want to argue why the civil war took place, or why the South left the Union.

I am proud of my herritage, and my ancestors that fought and died under that flag. They fought and died for what the believed in, whether it was right or wrong, they had the courage to fight for what they wanted.

Times are different today than in the mid 1800's. I think most people will agree that slavery was wrong, and that all men are equal. But back then it was not the case.

I dont agree with reason the war was fought, but I am proud that the brave men fought for what they believed was right. Hell alot of the South didnt even have guns, farmers were out fighting with whatever they had.
Your answer does not address the issue you raised and I replied to. Your claim was the Confederate flag did not stand for racism. I maintain that given the historical facts it indeed does stand for that.

I have ancestors on both sides of the conflict, though all southerners, my fathers side of the family fought for the Union while my mothers were confederates. Personally I do not feel the least bit of pride that some of my ancestors committed treason and took up arms against the US.
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Old 06-16-2011, 15:00   #244
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Your answer does not address the issue you raised and I replied to. Your claim was the Confederate flag did not stand for racism. I maintain that given the historical facts it indeed does stand for that.

I have ancestors on both sides of the conflict, though all southerners, my fathers side of the family fought for the Union while my mothers were confederates. Personally I do not feel the least bit of pride that some of my ancestors committed treason and took up arms against the US.

I said that the Confederate flag does not stand for racism in todays world. Sure some people use it like that, but it doesnt mean that everyone that has a Confederate flag is racist. It is still part of the Georgia State Flag. Ultimately it is just a flag/symbol it can mean any number of things to different people.

I agree that it has a bad rep due to the racist groups such as the KKK, but to me it is just a symbol. I am still proud that they fought for what they beleived in.

And not trying to argue with you, because I have respect for you. But the part about the South committed treason, that is very much correct. But America committed treason against Great Brittan by signing the declaration of independence, and the revolutionary war.
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Old 06-18-2011, 23:15   #245
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I never said his argument was stupid and had no merit, but if he, or anyone else, is so morally bankrupt that they believe slavery is not inherently evil than I don't see how I can intelligently idscuss the issue with him. As far as a time when slavery was not considered evil, I think you will find many our Founding Fathers uncomfortable, at best, and downright hostile, at worst, to the institution. Of course, I, as one who has no historical perspective, obviously cannot make that statement, despite having read extensively on the subject. If you, Gray Rider, or anyone else is so mired in the myth of the movie Gone With The Wind, revel in it.



Let me ask you this, as I have asked Gray Rider. As the mantra of Southern Revisionists is that the Civil War was fought over State's Rights, can you give me one example of a right that a resident of Mississippi had that a resident of Maine did not? Can you give me a right that a resident of Connecticut had that a resident of Alabama did not have? Gray Rider seems only able to skirt around the subject and give plattitudes to the Old South and condemn the evil Federal government.
Skirt around the issues? Read the books I have recommended. As I have stated repeatedly, your questions require essay answers I don't often have the time to reply to in the detail they require.

Just answer me one thing guys. How else would this nation accomplished what they did in under 100 years without the use of slavery. In the beginining, there was land and time. Work and tobacco. Blacks could work the land and didn't die like flies in the sun or suffer from disease as the hundreds of endentured servants did who as a rule didn't live past seven years in the early 16oo's. Slavery worked. It was the only thing that DID work to pull this country out of the jaws of naked savagery. All we had to keep people coming here and to keep the colonies going was tobacco and later cotton. Slave labor fed and clothed the nation for decades. And for the umteenth time, get over it. Nothing else worked. Slavery built every nation on earth and built the civilations before the great flood.

Slavery became extinct because of the industrial revolution and tens of thousands of immigrants and state born Americans willing to work for slave wages and work hours and under conditions that killed them like flies. As I said in another post. Slaves had to be fed, housed, given medical attention. If employees got injured or were killed there were ten waiting by the door to replace them. Slavery couldn't hold a candle to that kind of deal, and that is NOT defence of slavery. Just the facts.

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Old 06-18-2011, 23:28   #246
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In addition. My own grandfather was a slave. He was a slave in the 20's and 30's and 40's to the coal industry. He was cheated when they weighed the coal he loaded. He was paid in worthless "scrip" that could only be used in company stores that over charged him for the food and clothes needed for his family. He lived in shantys called company houses and charged ruinous rent for said housing. He worked when he had the flu. He often worked standing in icy water that was higher than his knee high work boots. He worked with sprains. He worked with cracked ribs. He worked when he had chicken pox, and he blacked his face with shoe polish to cover the red marks, BEFORE he reported for work. Had he not showed up for work he would have been fired and his family left destitute. Once my grandfather's helmet brushed an electric wire overhead. The jolt knocked him to his knees and he bit the stem of the pipe he was smoking in two! He went back to work. My father told of sitting down to flour and water gravy mixed with a little pork grease poured over bread for meals. One year my father got an orange for Christmas. ONE ORANGE! If this wasn't slavery I'd like your definition! Few slaves were treated like this in the Old South. Lives depended upon them. They cost a small fortune to replace. Yeah guys, cry me a river over the poor down trodden slaves in the old South, and how mean and terrible the plantation owners were. A slave owner would have been hung had he treated his slaves in any such manner.

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Old 06-18-2011, 23:47   #247
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And not trying to argue with you, because I have respect for you. But the part about the South committed treason, that is very much correct. But America committed treason against Great Brittan by signing the declaration of independence, and the revolutionary war.

The South did not commit treason in leaving the Union. In the beginining the states agreed to come together to form a Union. Thirteen individual sovern states that could leave the "Union" at any time. Read your history.

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Old 06-18-2011, 23:56   #248
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My Great great grandfather was a slave owner. Just before the war he sold his properties, freed his slaves, probably three or four at most, and moved into what is now West Virginia. (Occupied Virginia) He was such a cruel old codger, his slaves asked to stay with him and his family after they were freed. Seems they considered him and he them members of the family. This was more the norm in the old South. Plantation owners made up about 1% of the slave owners though they owned the most slaves. Less than 10% of all Southerners owned slaves to start with. What did the other 90% go to war over?

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Old 06-19-2011, 07:44   #249
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Blacks could work the land and didn't die like flies in the sun or suffer from disease as the hundreds of endentured servants did who as a rule didn't live past seven years in the early 16oo's. Slavery worked. It was the only thing that DID work to pull this country out of the jaws of naked savagery.
From the articles of secession Mississippi,

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Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization.
What an eerie similarity in thought.

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As I said in another post. Slaves had to be fed, housed, given medical attention. If employees got injured or were killed there were ten waiting by the door to replace them. Slavery couldn't hold a candle to that kind of deal, and that is NOT defence of slavery. Just the facts.
And yet the ungrateful wretches did their best to escape and make it to the "unenlightended" states that apparently were able to function without wholesale slavery to prop up their economy.
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Old 06-19-2011, 07:51   #250
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In addition. My own grandfather was a slave. He was a slave in the 20's and 30's and 40's to the coal industry. He was cheated when they weighed the coal he loaded. He was paid in worthless "scrip" that could only be used in company stores that over charged him for the food and clothes needed for his family. He lived in shantys called company houses and charged ruinous rent for said housing. He worked when he had the flu. He often worked standing in icy water that was higher than his knee high work boots. He worked with sprains. He worked with cracked ribs. He worked when he had chicken pox, and he blacked his face with shoe polish to cover the red marks, BEFORE he reported for work. Had he not showed up for work he would have been fired and his family left destitute. Once my grandfather's helmet brushed an electric wire overhead. The jolt knocked him to his knees and he bit the stem of the pipe he was smoking in two! He went back to work. My father told of sitting down to flour and water gravy mixed with a little pork grease poured over bread for meals. One year my father got an orange for Christmas. ONE ORANGE! If this wasn't slavery I'd like your definition! Few slaves were treated like this in the Old South. Lives depended upon them. They cost a small fortune to replace. Yeah guys, cry me a river over the poor down trodden slaves in the old South, and how mean and terrible the plantation owners were. A slave owner would have been hung had he treated his slaves in any such manner.

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So you have departed trying to argue FACTS concerning what secession was about and instead are going to defend slavery as a legitimate institution.

In the story above your father is not quite a slave, he could have left traveled elsewhere and sought other work. a Slave did not have that right.

Now I said not quite a slave, because he had choices, but I would agree that the mine owners reflect the southern aristocracy (Slave owners) that ruled the South for many generations. IN the south poor whites were barely above enslaved blacks on the social scale.

Traditionally the South was one of the LEAST democratic areas of the Country.
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Old 06-19-2011, 08:17   #251
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My Great great grandfather was a slave owner. Just before the war he sold his properties, freed his slaves, probably three or four at most, and moved into what is now West Virginia. (Occupied Virginia) He was such a cruel old codger, his slaves asked to stay with him and his family after they were freed. Seems they considered him and he them members of the family. This was more the norm in the old South. Plantation owners made up about 1% of the slave owners though they owned the most slaves. Less than 10% of all Southerners owned slaves to start with. What did the other 90% go to war over?

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So if the Slave owners were such kindly souls and the slaves were "happy, content darkies" ( as the mythology of the lost cause presents them) why were they escaping to the north in droves? Why was one of the chief complaints of the Southern states that the Northern states were not returning their runaway "Property"? and what was up with all those slave rebellions?

Were all slave owners cruel? obviously not, But the "slave" as member of the family was the exception rather than the rule. My own great, great,great grandfather was a slave owner, Court testimony shows he was indeed a "kindly master", When he died his will freed his slaves AND gave them his property. His sons sought to break the will. and court testimony reflected many witnesses, neighbors who stated the old man had never struck one of his slaves nor would he allow another man to do so. It went to court because his eight sons tried to break the will so they could claim the property and sell the slaves. The slave won in a landmark Tennessee Supreme court ruling on the property rights of slaves.


And as for what the non slave owners of the south went to war for, They went to war because they were duped by the elitist slave owning minority that ruled the south. And because many of them were CONSCRIPTED. The Confederacy resorted to conscription even before the North did.

So while the average Southerner who fought may not have been fighting to preserve the institution of slavery, they were indeed doing the bidding of the slave owning elite that rules the south.

And there is also the issue of the massive desertions suffered by the confederacy. We have Lee's letters to Davis in which he states it was an ongoing and very serious problem. In a Letter to Davis on Sept 13, 1862 Lee stated that 1/2 to 1/2 of his army never entered Maryland at all.

He also stated that a great deal of damage was being caused by the deserters, stating, "A great deal of damage done to citizens by the deserters taking all the food from the charitable and taking by force from the defenseless, wantonly destroying stock and property."

Another letter from Lee to Davis, July 27, 1863 After Gettysburg. " "there are many thousands of men improperly absent from this army."
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Old 06-19-2011, 12:30   #252
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The South did not commit treason in leaving the Union.
really? so what do you call it when the States seized Federal property that was LEGALLY the property of the united States?

And with the exception of fort Sumter all the states that seized Union Forts and arsenals did so BEFORE they even seceded.

I think seizing Union property and firing on union ships and ultimately a Union fort counts as BOTH rebellion and treason.

January 3, 1861: Georgia seizes Fort Pulaski.

January 19, 1861: Georgia secedes.

January 4, 1861: Alabama seizes U.S. arsenal at Mount Vernon.
January 5, 1861: Alabama seizes Forts Morgan and Gaines.

January 11, 1861: Alabama secedes.

January 6, 1861: Florida seizes Apalachicola arsenal.
January 7, 1861: Florida seizes Fort Marion.
January 8, 1861: Floridians try to seize Fort Barrancas but are chased off.

January 10, 1861: Florida secedes.


January 10, 1861 Louisiana seizes U.S. arsenal at Baton Rouge, as well
as Forts Jackson and St. Philip.
January 11, 1861 Louisiana seizes U.S. Marine Hospital.
January 14, 1861: Louisiana seizes Fort Pike.

January 26, 1861: Louisiana secedes.

February 8, 1861: Arkansas seizes U.S. Arsenal at Little Rock.
February 12, 1861: Arkansas seizes U.S. ordnance stores at Napoleon.

May 6, 1861 Arkansas Secedes.
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Old 06-19-2011, 17:08   #253
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Less than 10% of all Southerners owned slaves to start with. What did the other 90% go to war over?

Gotta jump on this, because it's completely true and absolutely misleading. An excellent example of the way that statistics lie to us. First, knock off the 50% of the Southern population that owned nothing and had no say in going to war---women. Then, consider how many Southerners weren't of legal age to own any property---minors. Suddenly, that 10% figure starts to look pretty suspect; manipulated, even.

Instead, go to the 1860 census and see what percentage of *households* owned slaves. That 10% gets tossed and a much more accurate number pops up. No need to take my word for this; UVa has computerized all those census results for us, county-by-county if you like. They're available here: http://mapserver.lib.virginia.edu/php/state.php

From the 1860 census:
Alabama, 35% of families held slaves.
Virginia, 26%.
Mississippi, 49%.
Florida, 34%.
South Carolina, 46%....

The aggregate in the Confederacy was about one-third. A bit more realistic picture. And when a quarter, a half, of your state's voters own something, the motive for going to war to keep it gets a little clearer.
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Old 06-19-2011, 18:00   #254
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Another issue with secession, only three states put it to a voter referendum, By what right did the legislatures of the other states strip the people of that state of their US citizenship, and remove them and their property from the domain of the US without their consent?
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Old 06-20-2011, 18:06   #255
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Some reading on what the South was saying, from the guys who were actually saying it in 1860, and why and how those "90%" were persuaded to fight. He also touches on the flag and symbolism thing that started the thread in the following address to the Charleston Library Society.

http://www.civilwar.org/education/hi...veholding.html

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There you have it. The reasons that Southerners gave their fellow Southerners for Secession – from the pulpit, from their political and community leaders, in their reading material. There was much more – I haven’t discussed newspapers yet -- but the message was the same...Our ancestors were unapologetic about why they wanted to secede; it is up to us to take them at their word and to dispassionately form our own judgments about their actions.
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Old 06-21-2011, 07:03   #256
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My Great great grandfather was a slave owner. Just before the war he sold his properties, freed his slaves, probably three or four at most, and moved into what is now West Virginia. (Occupied Virginia) He was such a cruel old codger, his slaves asked to stay with him and his family after they were freed. Seems they considered him and he them members of the family. ......

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This may not apply in your GGF's situation and we will never know, but frequently slaves were family ( brothers, sisters, cousins, nieces, nephews, children or grandchildren).

Thomas Jefferson's arrangement was not the only one of its kind and in tough times family counts for something.

Does your family history say why he freed the slaves at that time?
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Old 06-21-2011, 09:37   #257
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And how many of us Northern European DNA holders had ancestors who slaved for some Lord as serfs and servents. Remember your history, it was Africans who sold their brothers into Slavery, they didn't just run down to the beach saying "Whes de boat"?
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Old 06-21-2011, 14:19   #258
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If Slavery was justifiable then why did the confederates AFTER they lost try to distance themselves from it? Their statements BEFORE and during the war leaves not doubt why they seceded. Their leaders statements, their articles of secession, The speeches and letters of the Secession Commissioners plainly state the reason for secession was to protect, defend, and expand the institution of slavery.

After the war they attempted to distance themselves from slavery and rewrite the reasons for the secession. Their apologists today continue in that tradition. continuing and promoting the spurious history of the "Lost cause", claiming that slavery was not the central issue of secession and promoting the lie that the south tried to "peacefully" secede.
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Old 06-21-2011, 17:59   #259
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I said that the Confederate flag does not stand for racism in todays world. Sure some people use it like that, but it doesnt mean that everyone that has a Confederate flag is racist. It is still part of the Georgia State Flag. Ultimately it is just a flag/symbol it can mean any number of things to different people.

I agree that it has a bad rep due to the racist groups such as the KKK, but to me it is just a symbol. I am still proud that they fought for what they beleived in.

And not trying to argue with you, because I have respect for you. But the part about the South committed treason, that is very much correct. But America committed treason against Great Brittan by signing the declaration of independence, and the revolutionary war.
Where are all the people flying the Great Brittan flag with the American flag?
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Old 06-22-2011, 18:40   #260
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So you have departed trying to argue FACTS concerning what secession was about and instead are going to defend slavery as a legitimate institution.

In the story above your father is not quite a slave, he could have left traveled elsewhere and sought other work. a Slave did not have that right.

Now I said not quite a slave, because he had choices, but I would agree that the mine owners reflect the southern aristocracy (Slave owners) that ruled the South for many generations. IN the south poor whites were barely above enslaved blacks on the social scale.

Traditionally the South was one of the LEAST democratic areas of the Country.
All I see here, Dragoon, is white guilt. It clouds your reasoning. Millions of people's lives white, black, and everything in-between, depended upon slavery. North and South. FOR CENTURIES. From the lowly to the landed. That means NOTHING to you. Let them die and decrease the surplus population I suppose. I said that slavery WORKED when NOTHING else did. How would have YOU have solved the problems facing the early settlers? Tobacco and Cotton was the only cash for decades and black, (free yes there were hundreds and slave, and white!!!!??) labor, produced it. Whites, according to you, just fanned themselves in the shade and said "fiddle-dee-dee", and abused their slaves that cost millions of dollars. The South is your eternal boogie man. I'm sad you have bought the Kool Aid and drank it.
If we evil Southerners took care of our slaves as you think we did, the Confederacy wouldn't have lasted a month. We should have sailed back to England and let the kindly Spainards have it all.

Your beloved Union got EXACTLY what it bought and paid for.

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