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Old 06-14-2011, 16:53   #226
chuck pullen
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Having lived in Alabama all my life, I both understand and subscribe to my region's deep respect and pride in people like Lee, Cleburne, Longstreet, et al. It is not them, or their bravery in the Civil War, that reflects badly on the Confederate battle flag. They and the soldiers that served gallantly under them 150 years ago gave that banner all the glory it still has.

Instead, it is the dumba**, hate-spewing peckerwoods largely from areas outside the South, but also in it, who have stolen that banner to try to make it a symbol of hate. Unfortunately, in the eyes of the media and a large section of the public, they have succeeded in that. It is them I blame, not the symbol brave Southerners fought under or those brave men themselves.
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Old 06-14-2011, 17:26   #227
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[QUOTE=glock_19guy1983;15261852]Murderers, Rapists, thieves, and arsonists. I hope every man that fought in Lincoln's army is roasting in Hell tonight.[/QUOTE

Really ? Think of Lawrence Chamberlain and John Gibbon for instance. Please tell me you aren't serious.
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Old 06-14-2011, 18:47   #228
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Instead, it is the dumba**, hate-spewing peckerwoods largely from areas outside the South, but also in it, who have stolen that banner to try to make it a symbol of hate.
You mean peckerwoods that spew stuff like,



Quote:
the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition.
Alexander Stephens, Vice president of the confederacy, "Cornerstone" speech 1861

Quote:
the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color - a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law.
Quote:
We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.
Texas Articles of secession.
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Old 06-15-2011, 09:05   #229
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"....Instead, it is the dumba**, hate-spewing peckerwoods largely from areas outside the South, but also in it,...."

Puller don't need to worry about the yankees and other outsiders you need to work to clean up the act a bit closer to home.

2007 Athens Alabama:

http://athens-al.purzuit.com/video/EfXD-a-QrX8.html

You will have a difficult time changing the photographed history of our south for the 1950's, 60's, and 70's and afterwards.
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Old 06-15-2011, 13:41   #230
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I never said that racism isn't or wasn't a problem in the South. I acknowledged that it was. Instead, the point I was trying to make is that the reason the Confederate flag is NOW so controversial is that for the last 50 or more years it's been taken over by white supremacist groups like the klan and has become, in the public's mind, forever linked with those groups. Those are the peckerwoods I was talking about and they include any klan groups around here. Before those groups co-opted it, it was more of a historical symbol of the Confederacy.
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Old 06-15-2011, 20:46   #231
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I am not going to read the 10 pages of posts.

The Confederate Flag today has nothing to do with racism. Some people or groups that are racist may have adopted it, but it is just a flag. I am very proud of the Confederate flag, I actually have 3 Confederate Flag tattoo's, and 1 that is flying in my yard right now. I am very proud of my herritage, and my family that fought and died under that flag.
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Old 06-16-2011, 00:33   #232
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You mean peckerwoods that spew stuff like,
"I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races -- that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior and I as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

.....Abraham Lincoln, September 18, 1858. Debate with Stephen A. Douglas, in the race for Illinois Senator.
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Old 06-16-2011, 05:04   #233
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Originally Posted by redneck1861 View Post
I am not going to read the 10 pages of posts.

The Confederate Flag today has nothing to do with racism. Some people or groups that are racist may have adopted it, but it is just a flag. I am very proud of the Confederate flag, I actually have 3 Confederate Flag tattoo's, and 1 that is flying in my yard right now. I am very proud of my herritage, and my family that fought and died under that flag.
Do you have any family members who served in the Armed Forces of the United States of America? If so, do you feel the same pride for those that fought for the freedom of all Americans as you feel for those who fought for the right to deny the freedom of some people and to hold them as property?

Do you ever fly the flag of the Untied States of America, or have a tattoo of such?
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Old 06-16-2011, 08:25   #234
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Do you have any family members who served in the Armed Forces of the United States of America? If so, do you feel the same pride for those that fought for the freedom of all Americans as you feel for those who fought for the right to deny the freedom of some people and to hold them as property?

Do you ever fly the flag of the Untied States of America, or have a tattoo of such?
The Northern and Union states certainly had slavery. So they denied the freedom of some people and held them as property. Some Union states still had slavery after the Civil War was over. Funny how the Northern slanted view of history never seems to mention this.

The Northern/Union states also fought to deny the freedom and independence of the South.
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Old 06-16-2011, 10:02   #235
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"I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races -- that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior and I as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

.....Abraham Lincoln, September 18, 1858. Debate with Stephen A. Douglas, in the race for Illinois Senator.
Lincoln like the Founding Fathers certainly did not consider the black man the equal of the White man. Also like many of the Founding Fathers Lincoln considered slavery and evil.

Herein lies the fundamental differences between Lincoln and the "Peckerwoods" I quoted. Lincoln did not agree that the Black mans inequality with Whites made him subject to slavery, being owned and considered Chattel property.

Here are some more Lincoln quotes.

Quote:
July 1, 1854:



If A. can prove, however conclusively, that he may, of right, enslave B. -- why may not B. snatch the same argument, and prove equally, that he may enslave A?--

You say A. is white, and B. is black. It is color, then; the lighter, having the right to enslave the darker? Take care. By this rule, you are to be slave to the first man you meet, with a fairer skin than your own.

You do not mean color exactly?--You mean the whites are intellectually the superiors of the blacks, and, therefore have the right to enslave them? Take care again. By this rule, you are to be slave to the first man you meet, with an intellect superior to your own.

But, say you, it is a question of interest; and, if you can make it your interest, you have the right to enslave another. Very well. And if he can make it his interest, he has the right to enslave you.
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As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democracy. Whatever differs from this, to the extent of the difference, is no democracy.
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Old 06-16-2011, 10:12   #236
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Originally Posted by redneck1861 View Post
I am not going to read the 10 pages of posts.

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The Confederate Flag today has nothing to do with racism
. Some people or groups that are racist may have adopted it, but it is just a flag. I am very proud of the Confederate flag, I actually have 3 Confederate Flag tattoo's, and 1 that is flying in my yard right now. I am very proud of my herritage, and my family that fought and died under that flag.
How could that be? is not the confederate flag the symbol of the Confederacy?

What did the Confederacy stand for? Despite the revisionist history put forth by the Neo Confederates today who have swallowed the myth of the "Lost cause" started by the losing confederates right after the war The evidence of what the Confederacy stood for is plainly stated in the confederates own words before and during the war.

Quote:
On March 21, 1861 (less than two weeks after the Confederacy had formed its constitution), Confederate Vice-President Alexander Stephens delivered a policy speech setting forth the purpose of the new government. That speech was entitled “African Slavery: The Corner-Stone of the Southern Confederacy.”

How much more racist can you get than to believe that by virtue of your own race you have the right to enslave someone of another race?
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Old 06-16-2011, 10:41   #237
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How much more racist can you get than to believe that by virtue of your own race you have the right to enslave someone of another race?
Are you asking this same question about the United States, which had slavery for 90 years including after all the Confederate slaves were free?
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Old 06-16-2011, 11:34   #238
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Are you asking this same question about the United States, which had slavery for 90 years including after all the Confederate slaves were free?
I am talking about how the US constitution did not promote or defend slavery, nor make it the cornerstone of the US Govt.

The Confederate Constitution did all of the above.

Keep ducking and dodging like the good little neo confederate you are.
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Old 06-16-2011, 11:42   #239
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I am talking about how the US constitution did not promote or defend slavery, nor make it the cornerstone of the US Govt.

The Confederate Constitution did all of the above.

Keep ducking and dodging like the good little neo confederate you are.
The US Supreme Court sure did defend the right to own slaves with the Dred Scott v. Sandford ruling. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott_v._Sandford

And the US Congress passed the Fugitive Slave Act that stated runaway slaves had to be returned to their masters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_Slave_Act_of_1850.

Of course this was before there ever was a Confederacy.

Stating facts should not be confused with ducking and dodging.

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Old 06-16-2011, 12:22   #240
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Dredd Scot still stands as one of the worst rulings ever made by the SCOTUS, And still today stands as a prime example of an activist court overreaching itself to further it's own agenda.

The Dissenting judges issued scathing and accurate dissent concerning the majority opinion. Detailing how the ruling flew in the face of established case law from state supreme courts and the Constitution itself. And last but not least how once the court declared Scott had not standing to bring the suit and it therefore had no jurisdiction, the court was obligated to simply dismiss the case and it was improper of the court to issue ANY rulings on the merits of the case after that.


The "fugitive slave act"

in which the word slave does not even appear. and whose wording was such that any state requiring the "slave" owner to prove that the "slave" was indeed his property "under the laws thereof" of their state prevented slave owners from taking escaped slaves back to their own states.

For the simple reason that no slave owner could establish that they owned the slave "Under the law thereof" of their states. since no state had legalized slavery and pro slavery leaders admitted public ally that not only did no slave holding states have laws legalizing slavery but such laws could not be passed under the US constitution or the constitutions of the states that all had Declaration of independence, and BOR style clauses written into their constitutions.

Quote:
Senator James M. Mason (D., Va.) had publicly admitted in 1850, that there were no states that had legally established slavery. All states had slavery bans written into their constitutions via Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights style clauses.
Even the abolitionists pointed out the illegality of slavery.

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A number of abolitionists said, "When we say that slavery is illegal, we mean not merely that it is morally wrong, wicked, or sinful, in the sight of God, but that it is likewise unlawful, by the established principles of human jurisprudence, just as murder, arson, robbery, theft, and assault and battery, are unlawful, and that there is no more valid law for [favoring] the one than there is for the other. We mean that slaveholding is illegal, as other criminal practices are illegal. We affirm that there is no legislation in any of the States that makes it legal. . . . Slavery can not possibly be legalized. In its very nature it is incapable of legalization. The standard writers on common law affirm the impossibility of legalizing slavery, even by positive municipal law. They declare the right to liberty to be inalienable, and that statutes against fundamental morality are void. . . . The nature of civil government and of civil law, as defined by all standard writers on those subjects, proves it impossible to legalize slavery. 'To secure' man’s inalienable rights, 'governments are instituted among men.' And consequently they can have no lawful authority to violate the rights which they exist only to protect."
That was the driving force behind secession, the south's realization that their "peculiar institution" had no legal standing, even within their own states. This was why they were determined to secede and create their own constitution that legalized and protected slavery at the national level and forbid any of their member states to do away with it even in their own state.

It is also why the Confederates detested the Declaration of Independence.
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Old 06-16-2011, 13:39   #241
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Do you have any family members who served in the Armed Forces of the United States of America? If so, do you feel the same pride for those that fought for the freedom of all Americans as you feel for those who fought for the right to deny the freedom of some people and to hold them as property?

Do you ever fly the flag of the Untied States of America, or have a tattoo of such?

I do have an American flag tattoo, I said that I fly a Confederate Flag in front of my house everyday, since this is a thread about the Confederate flag. But since you asked, I do fly an American Flag higher than my Confederate Flag everyday.
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Old 06-16-2011, 13:51   #242
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How could that be? is not the confederate flag the symbol of the Confederacy?

What did the Confederacy stand for? Despite the revisionist history put forth by the Neo Confederates today who have swallowed the myth of the "Lost cause" started by the losing confederates right after the war The evidence of what the Confederacy stood for is plainly stated in the confederates own words before and during the war.

How much more racist can you get than to believe that by virtue of your own race you have the right to enslave someone of another race?

I dont want to argue why the civil war took place, or why the South left the Union.

I am proud of my herritage, and my ancestors that fought and died under that flag. They fought and died for what the believed in, whether it was right or wrong, they had the courage to fight for what they wanted.

Times are different today than in the mid 1800's. I think most people will agree that slavery was wrong, and that all men are equal. But back then it was not the case.

I dont agree with reason the war was fought, but I am proud that the brave men fought for what they believed was right. Hell alot of the South didnt even have guns, farmers were out fighting with whatever they had.
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Old 06-16-2011, 14:20   #243
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I dont want to argue why the civil war took place, or why the South left the Union.

I am proud of my herritage, and my ancestors that fought and died under that flag. They fought and died for what the believed in, whether it was right or wrong, they had the courage to fight for what they wanted.

Times are different today than in the mid 1800's. I think most people will agree that slavery was wrong, and that all men are equal. But back then it was not the case.

I dont agree with reason the war was fought, but I am proud that the brave men fought for what they believed was right. Hell alot of the South didnt even have guns, farmers were out fighting with whatever they had.
Your answer does not address the issue you raised and I replied to. Your claim was the Confederate flag did not stand for racism. I maintain that given the historical facts it indeed does stand for that.

I have ancestors on both sides of the conflict, though all southerners, my fathers side of the family fought for the Union while my mothers were confederates. Personally I do not feel the least bit of pride that some of my ancestors committed treason and took up arms against the US.
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Old 06-16-2011, 15:00   #244
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Your answer does not address the issue you raised and I replied to. Your claim was the Confederate flag did not stand for racism. I maintain that given the historical facts it indeed does stand for that.

I have ancestors on both sides of the conflict, though all southerners, my fathers side of the family fought for the Union while my mothers were confederates. Personally I do not feel the least bit of pride that some of my ancestors committed treason and took up arms against the US.

I said that the Confederate flag does not stand for racism in todays world. Sure some people use it like that, but it doesnt mean that everyone that has a Confederate flag is racist. It is still part of the Georgia State Flag. Ultimately it is just a flag/symbol it can mean any number of things to different people.

I agree that it has a bad rep due to the racist groups such as the KKK, but to me it is just a symbol. I am still proud that they fought for what they beleived in.

And not trying to argue with you, because I have respect for you. But the part about the South committed treason, that is very much correct. But America committed treason against Great Brittan by signing the declaration of independence, and the revolutionary war.
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Old 06-18-2011, 23:15   #245
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I never said his argument was stupid and had no merit, but if he, or anyone else, is so morally bankrupt that they believe slavery is not inherently evil than I don't see how I can intelligently idscuss the issue with him. As far as a time when slavery was not considered evil, I think you will find many our Founding Fathers uncomfortable, at best, and downright hostile, at worst, to the institution. Of course, I, as one who has no historical perspective, obviously cannot make that statement, despite having read extensively on the subject. If you, Gray Rider, or anyone else is so mired in the myth of the movie Gone With The Wind, revel in it.



Let me ask you this, as I have asked Gray Rider. As the mantra of Southern Revisionists is that the Civil War was fought over State's Rights, can you give me one example of a right that a resident of Mississippi had that a resident of Maine did not? Can you give me a right that a resident of Connecticut had that a resident of Alabama did not have? Gray Rider seems only able to skirt around the subject and give plattitudes to the Old South and condemn the evil Federal government.
Skirt around the issues? Read the books I have recommended. As I have stated repeatedly, your questions require essay answers I don't often have the time to reply to in the detail they require.

Just answer me one thing guys. How else would this nation accomplished what they did in under 100 years without the use of slavery. In the beginining, there was land and time. Work and tobacco. Blacks could work the land and didn't die like flies in the sun or suffer from disease as the hundreds of endentured servants did who as a rule didn't live past seven years in the early 16oo's. Slavery worked. It was the only thing that DID work to pull this country out of the jaws of naked savagery. All we had to keep people coming here and to keep the colonies going was tobacco and later cotton. Slave labor fed and clothed the nation for decades. And for the umteenth time, get over it. Nothing else worked. Slavery built every nation on earth and built the civilations before the great flood.

Slavery became extinct because of the industrial revolution and tens of thousands of immigrants and state born Americans willing to work for slave wages and work hours and under conditions that killed them like flies. As I said in another post. Slaves had to be fed, housed, given medical attention. If employees got injured or were killed there were ten waiting by the door to replace them. Slavery couldn't hold a candle to that kind of deal, and that is NOT defence of slavery. Just the facts.

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Old 06-18-2011, 23:28   #246
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In addition. My own grandfather was a slave. He was a slave in the 20's and 30's and 40's to the coal industry. He was cheated when they weighed the coal he loaded. He was paid in worthless "scrip" that could only be used in company stores that over charged him for the food and clothes needed for his family. He lived in shantys called company houses and charged ruinous rent for said housing. He worked when he had the flu. He often worked standing in icy water that was higher than his knee high work boots. He worked with sprains. He worked with cracked ribs. He worked when he had chicken pox, and he blacked his face with shoe polish to cover the red marks, BEFORE he reported for work. Had he not showed up for work he would have been fired and his family left destitute. Once my grandfather's helmet brushed an electric wire overhead. The jolt knocked him to his knees and he bit the stem of the pipe he was smoking in two! He went back to work. My father told of sitting down to flour and water gravy mixed with a little pork grease poured over bread for meals. One year my father got an orange for Christmas. ONE ORANGE! If this wasn't slavery I'd like your definition! Few slaves were treated like this in the Old South. Lives depended upon them. They cost a small fortune to replace. Yeah guys, cry me a river over the poor down trodden slaves in the old South, and how mean and terrible the plantation owners were. A slave owner would have been hung had he treated his slaves in any such manner.

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Old 06-18-2011, 23:47   #247
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And not trying to argue with you, because I have respect for you. But the part about the South committed treason, that is very much correct. But America committed treason against Great Brittan by signing the declaration of independence, and the revolutionary war.

The South did not commit treason in leaving the Union. In the beginining the states agreed to come together to form a Union. Thirteen individual sovern states that could leave the "Union" at any time. Read your history.

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Old 06-18-2011, 23:56   #248
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My Great great grandfather was a slave owner. Just before the war he sold his properties, freed his slaves, probably three or four at most, and moved into what is now West Virginia. (Occupied Virginia) He was such a cruel old codger, his slaves asked to stay with him and his family after they were freed. Seems they considered him and he them members of the family. This was more the norm in the old South. Plantation owners made up about 1% of the slave owners though they owned the most slaves. Less than 10% of all Southerners owned slaves to start with. What did the other 90% go to war over?

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Old 06-19-2011, 07:44   #249
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Blacks could work the land and didn't die like flies in the sun or suffer from disease as the hundreds of endentured servants did who as a rule didn't live past seven years in the early 16oo's. Slavery worked. It was the only thing that DID work to pull this country out of the jaws of naked savagery.
From the articles of secession Mississippi,

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Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization.
What an eerie similarity in thought.

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As I said in another post. Slaves had to be fed, housed, given medical attention. If employees got injured or were killed there were ten waiting by the door to replace them. Slavery couldn't hold a candle to that kind of deal, and that is NOT defence of slavery. Just the facts.
And yet the ungrateful wretches did their best to escape and make it to the "unenlightended" states that apparently were able to function without wholesale slavery to prop up their economy.
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Old 06-19-2011, 07:51   #250
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Originally Posted by Gray_Rider View Post
In addition. My own grandfather was a slave. He was a slave in the 20's and 30's and 40's to the coal industry. He was cheated when they weighed the coal he loaded. He was paid in worthless "scrip" that could only be used in company stores that over charged him for the food and clothes needed for his family. He lived in shantys called company houses and charged ruinous rent for said housing. He worked when he had the flu. He often worked standing in icy water that was higher than his knee high work boots. He worked with sprains. He worked with cracked ribs. He worked when he had chicken pox, and he blacked his face with shoe polish to cover the red marks, BEFORE he reported for work. Had he not showed up for work he would have been fired and his family left destitute. Once my grandfather's helmet brushed an electric wire overhead. The jolt knocked him to his knees and he bit the stem of the pipe he was smoking in two! He went back to work. My father told of sitting down to flour and water gravy mixed with a little pork grease poured over bread for meals. One year my father got an orange for Christmas. ONE ORANGE! If this wasn't slavery I'd like your definition! Few slaves were treated like this in the Old South. Lives depended upon them. They cost a small fortune to replace. Yeah guys, cry me a river over the poor down trodden slaves in the old South, and how mean and terrible the plantation owners were. A slave owner would have been hung had he treated his slaves in any such manner.

Gray_Rider
Deo Vindice!
So you have departed trying to argue FACTS concerning what secession was about and instead are going to defend slavery as a legitimate institution.

In the story above your father is not quite a slave, he could have left traveled elsewhere and sought other work. a Slave did not have that right.

Now I said not quite a slave, because he had choices, but I would agree that the mine owners reflect the southern aristocracy (Slave owners) that ruled the South for many generations. IN the south poor whites were barely above enslaved blacks on the social scale.

Traditionally the South was one of the LEAST democratic areas of the Country.
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42