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Old 05-17-2011, 10:34   #26
dosei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Junes View Post
I am wondering what the ramifications (legal or otherwise) would be of pulling your gun to diffuse a situation or prevent a crime from happening
Ramifications for brandishing a deadly weapon without legal justification to use deadly force...here are a couple that come to mind:

Arrested for brandishing, fined, incarcerated, weapon confiscated, permit revoked.

Killed in self-defence (i.e., the other person will have legal justification to use deadly force to protect themselves...because unless they are actively committing a felony, you just gave them the "high ground". You will have illegally threatened a person with deadly force, giving them the right of self-defence...you will have turned yourself into the BG).
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Last edited by dosei; 05-17-2011 at 15:36..
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Old 05-17-2011, 11:16   #27
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Drawing a weapon OTHER than when deadly force is justified is like the forward pass, three thing can happen and two are bad;
1. The subject turns and walks away, that the good.
2. The subject takes exception to you pulling a gun and the situation escalates leaving you in the wrong, that's bad.
3. The subject walks but calls the law and files charges against you, that also bad.
Not to mention that you have given away your greatest advantage, that of surprise.

In Ohio the charge would likely be;

2903.21 Aggravated menacing.

(A) No person shall knowingly cause another to believe that the offender will cause serious physical harm to the person or property of the other person, the other person’s unborn, or a member of the other person’s immediate family.

(B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of aggravated menacing. Except as otherwise provided in this division, aggravated menacing is a misdemeanor of the first degree. If the victim of the offense is an officer or employee of a public children services agency or a private child placing agency and the offense relates to the officer’s or employee’s performance or anticipated performance of official responsibilities or duties, aggravated menacing is a felony of the fifth degree or, if the offender previously has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to an offense of violence, the victim of that prior offense was an officer or employee of a public children services agency or private child placing agency, and that prior offense related to the officer’s or employee’s performance or anticipated performance of official responsibilities or duties, a felony of the fourth degree.

Effective Date: 04-10-2001
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Old 05-17-2011, 13:01   #28
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I wouldn't do it.

Brandishing carries 5 yrs here in FL and people do get arrested and go to jail for it. I know of someone that got 5 yrs last year for doing it.

I always carry less-lethal and if there was a situation I felt I absolutely had to intervene, I would consider it.
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Old 05-17-2011, 17:48   #29
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A couple years back someone attempted to break into my grandparents house while my grandmother was home alone. I arrived at the sametime as the police. They did not find anyone lurking around the outside of the house so they left. I looked out the window because we were expecting my brother and noticed the tailights on one of the cars were lit up. I went outside to find someone in the car. He may have been there the whole time. I called 911 and wait for them to dispatch the officers back out. The BG saw me and got out. Started to climb the fence to come into the yard. I drew and did not have to fire. When the officers arrived they knew from the 911 call that was being played over the radio that I was armed and had the BG at gunpoint because he attempted to come over the fence. The officer arrived and I put my gun on the ground and stepped back. The officers did not draw on me. The BG was arrested for attempted breaking and entering and trespassing. Once they had him in custody and finished the report, they gave me my EDC back. I asked them what ramifications I would be facing and they said none. I think it really.depends on the responding officers and how you conduct yourself. I would do it again if I had to but hope it never comes to it again. I did not get charged with anything or made to feel by the LEO that I had done anything wrong. It definitely changes your view and thought process when you have to draw. I would have shot him had he come into the fenced area.

FYI....this was in a major metropolitan area in NC.
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Old 05-17-2011, 19:46   #30
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Don't pull your gun unless you are going to kill somebody with it. If you just yank it out to try and scare somebody out of what they are doing you more than likely will end up in jail. I wouldn't draw unless the situation is bad enough to pull the trigger. Don't worry about somebody commiting a crime, you are not the police, just report it. As for a situation, unless it involves you directly and you have a VERY good reason to believe your life is in danger right then, keep it in the holster.
This is a thread that needed only one reply post and this was it.

It appears some people could use a bit more training, a bit more maturity, or a bit more intelligence.
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Old 05-18-2011, 09:46   #31
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http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-news-de...,5443308.story
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Old 05-18-2011, 11:11   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by packsaddle View Post
Depends on the crime.

The threat of deadly force is only permitted when the use of deadly force is permitted.
this is what texas says.........
9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person
is justified in using deadly force against another:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the
other under Section 9.31;
(2) if a reasonable person in the actor's situation
would not have retreated; and
(3) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to protect himself against the other's use or
attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or
(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual
assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.
(b) The requirement imposed by Subsection (a)(2) does not
apply to an actor who uses force against a person who is at the time
of the use of force committing an offense of unlawful entry in the
habitation of the actor.
notice it does not give a degree of the crime, but the crime itself

how a lawyer looks at it

The Burden of Proof for Self-Defense

In any criminal case, the prosecution's main goal is to show that a crime was committed. In this instance, the prosecution must simply show that a weapon was brandished, which qualifies as assault. Whenever a defendant chooses to argue self-defense in a case, the burden of proof falls on the defendant, not the prosecution.

This means that the defendant must prove that the need for self-defense justified the commission of assault. If the defendant cannot successfully argue that self-defense was necessary, s/he may be found guilty of assault or aggravated assault.

Because self-defense can be a difficult argument to make in an assault case, it is important to seek the advice and assistance of an experienced criminal defense attorney. A criminal attorney can gather all evidence relevant to your case to help you construct a strong defense to your assault charge.

Last edited by barstoolguru; 05-18-2011 at 11:14..
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Old 05-18-2011, 11:36   #33
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I think people overthink this subject, and I'm sure dangerous situations are very often diffused by the simple act of brandishing. BG is being bad, CCW holder pulls gun, BG sh&ts his pants and runs away, end of story.
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Old 05-18-2011, 17:47   #34
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Originally Posted by Captains1911 View Post
I think people overthink this subject, and I'm sure dangerous situations are very often diffused by the simple act of brandishing. BG is being bad, CCW holder pulls gun, BG sh&ts his pants and runs away, end of story.
And if the bad guy doesn't run away?
Whatcha gonna do now Willis?
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Old 05-18-2011, 18:08   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
how a lawyer looks at it

The Burden of Proof for Self-Defense

In any criminal case, the prosecution's main goal is to show that a crime was committed. In this instance, the prosecution must simply show that a weapon was brandished, which qualifies as assault. Whenever a defendant chooses to argue self-defense in a case, the burden of proof falls on the defendant, not the prosecution.

This means that the defendant must prove that the need for self-defense justified the commission of assault. If the defendant cannot successfully argue that self-defense was necessary, s/he may be found guilty of assault or aggravated assault.

Because self-defense can be a difficult argument to make in an assault case, it is important to seek the advice and assistance of an experienced criminal defense attorney. A criminal attorney can gather all evidence relevant to your case to help you construct a strong defense to your assault charge.
In some jurisdictions self-defense is an affirmative assertive defense. When it is an assertive defense, the burden of proof is still on the prosecutor.

Of course IANAL, so I can't tell anyone whether or not that applies to them.
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Old 05-18-2011, 18:13   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NMGlocker View Post
And if the bad guy doesn't run away?
Whatcha gonna do now Willis?
I think we have people arguing over things that they might actually agree on.

You must be willing, able and justified to use the deadly force before drawing the gun. But people arguing of the "run away" scenario are trying to point out that just because you had to pull, you may not always have to shoot, or be legal if you shoot. The run away scenario is a prime example.

I've read that for an average carrier, it takes between 1 and 1.5 seconds to draw from concealment and put a shot on target. Well trained and practiced may be a bit faster. Alot can change in 1 second, and the shooting may no longer be justified.

Of course if the attack continues, you must have the absolute resolve to end the encounter with the force you have presented by drawing the weapon.

Last edited by Jayock; 05-18-2011 at 18:14..
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Old 05-18-2011, 23:02   #37
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Originally Posted by Captains1911 View Post
I think people overthink this subject, and I'm sure dangerous situations are very often diffused by the simple act of brandishing. BG is being bad, CCW holder pulls gun, BG sh&ts his pants and runs away, end of story.
Brandishing is not a simple act, it is an act that carries quite a bit of baggage with it. You don't brandish. You bring your gun into play if and only if deadly force is appropriate. You don't have to use that deadly force, but it darned sure better be there when you you start threatening someone with a gun.
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Old 05-19-2011, 08:38   #38
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I'm not going to be the guy who draws his gun and waves it around.

I might draw it quietly and keep it hidden if it looks like I might need it momentarily, but as a general rule I'm not going to draw it unless I intend to use it, though circumstances can change quickly and it might become unnecessary to shoot.

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Old 05-19-2011, 09:36   #39
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You bring your gun into play if and only if deadly force is appropriate. You don't have to use that deadly force, but it darned sure better be there when you you start threatening someone with a gun.
Unless, perhaps, you happen to be a PPD officer?
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:17   #40
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This is great! You always make me laugh, and think.
Thank you for the compliment Sir.
It is always my hope that I can add to a discussion/topic, and help to promote thinking/approaching the topic from multiple angels.

Sometimes a photo/picture can help convey a thought in a way that text may not.

All the best

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Old 05-19-2011, 12:34   #41
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And if the bad guy doesn't run away?
Whatcha gonna do now Willis?
If the bad guy continues the life threatening act, then he goes down, you don't pull it if you aren't prepared to use it. But if the act of drawing it causes him to stop whatever threatening behavior he was exhibiting, then great.
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:35   #42
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I'm not going to be the guy who draws his gun and waves it around.

I might draw it quietly and keep it hidden if it looks like I might need it momentarily, but as a general rule I'm not going to draw it unless I intend to use it, though circumstances can change quickly and it might become unnecessary to shoot.

Regards,
Happyguy
My point exactly
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Old 05-19-2011, 13:10   #43
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In my CCW class we were instructed that IF we decide to draw and cover, we loudly tell the BG to cease his behavior that caused you to draw (think "Demolition Man"). That way if you do put them down, witnesses can attest that you drew as last resort and gave them opportunity to withdraw. So in this scenario if you draw and de-escalate, there wouldn't be any charges filed against you. That's how it was explained to me, hope I never have to prove the theory.
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Old 05-19-2011, 15:56   #44
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You draw with the intent and justification to stop an immediate threat of death or grave bodily harm.
Period.
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Old 05-21-2011, 14:44   #45
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It is not my intention to ever pull a gun for the purpose of showing it (waving it around) or pointing it (for effect). If I pull a firearm it will be for the purpose of firing it. If while I am in the "process" of drawing it and firing, the badguy desides to stop what they doing- I will gladly rehoslter.
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Old 05-24-2011, 21:08   #46
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Sometimes you don't need to draw to diffuse a situation. One time I was in a convience store with my wife. She went over to use the ATM in the store. While she was standing there a scumbag came in, circled around an isle and started walking toward her. I knew by the way he was walking (fast) and looking around that he wasn't shopping. I stepped in between them, placed my hand on my gun (IWB holster) under my shirt and looked him straight in the eye. By the look on his face he immediately knew what it meant. He abruptly turned around, scoffed something off a shelf, and zipped out the door. This wasn't a life threatening situation so I wasn't justified in pulling the gun, but I effectively changed the outcome without "brandishing".

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Old 05-25-2011, 01:11   #47
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You pull your gun without the justification for using it.
The guy you pull it on isn't intimidated.
Now what are you going to do?
Give the other guy legal justification for using deadly force against you.

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Old 05-25-2011, 09:14   #48
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Unless, perhaps, you happen to be a PPD officer?
Do you really want to go down that road again??
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:17   #49
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Do you really want to go down that road again??
Na, the pavement has been beaten off of this road so much that it would take all of Barry's infrastructure stimulus money to even make it walkable.
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:26   #50
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1. Beware of "as a general rule" statements.
2. Beware of summaries of the law. Look at the law itself.
3. Beware of shackling yourself to a scenario based on what you think would happen.
4. Overthinking a situation can be as dangerous as underpreparation.
5. Increase your skill and personal awareness, and act in each situation according to its individual facts, and the rules.
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